He slices! He casts! He even makes julienne fries!

[Archetype-]

<climbs out from underneath a massive pile of scrap metal and old tomes>

And hello again, various-humanoid-shaped-thingsITP. I have come to ask you yet again for your aid. It's a sad thing, but no one here permits Tome of Battle in their games. They're wrongly convinced that it's full of broken stuff, but they don't seem to realize that they're perspective of what truly is broken is heavily distorted. So, I'm often forced to do something else that makes a melee class much less... dull to play. Presently, I'm running a paladin in a friends game. Unfortunately, I've noticed rather quickly that I lack the ability and perhaps the mindset to play a paladin properly. I've drawn the concept below to replace that character in his role and add some arcane punch to the mix.

The presently unnamed warrior-mage has a bit of a flamboyant side, adding a bit of extra flair to most everything he does. He likes to bend the rules to suit his needs, or just disregard them altogether. The oppression and mistreatment of his fellow men (figuratively speaking) are among the things he cannot stand, and he's enlisted by a conclave the party is working for to further this end. His background is still very much in the works.

The rest of the party that I'm aware of thus far is:

-CN Dwarf Barbarian 6: Played by a good friend of mine, and he plays this concept almost all the time. Despite what should be obvious experience, he claims he never uses Power Attack at all. He's known to eschew ranged weapons altogether, so he's often pissed at flying foes until he gets his hands on Wings of Flying.
-LN Something Fighter 6: This is some random otherworldly race that almost no one knows about in-game. If memory serves, he has the Dodge tree up to Spring Attack. He's never actually made use of Dodge or Mobility, though. He's either used a pair of short swords or a greatsword, and I think he's used the former more often than not.
-N Elf Ninja1/Wizard5: This one's a bit of a mystery to me. All I've seen this one do is fire a longbow, and Magic Missile stuff. He can get a decent AC, but the dependence on having at least 4 different attributes of decent score has me wondering how long he'll survive.

And there's another couple casters, unknown as to what exactly they are. I know one's a cleric of some kind. The other is an arcane caster played by a friend with a reputation for some pretty... memorable casters RP-wise.


The concept so far:


Human Fighter/Abjurer/Human Paragon, starting level 6
Starting Stats: Str 17, Dex 14, Con 13, Int 17, Wis 13, Cha 13

Proposed Progression:

[1]Fighter 1: Able Learner (Bonus Feats: Power Attack, Improved Toughness)
[2]Fighter 2: (Bonus Feat: Improved Initiative)
[3]Abjurer 1: Practiced Spellcaster: Abjurer (Bonus Feat: Scribe Scroll)
[4]Abjurer 2: Ability Increase (STR)
[5]Human Paragon 1:
[6]Human Paragon 2: Combat Casting (Bonus Feat: Extend Spell)
[7]Human Paragon 3: Ability Boost (INT)
[8]Abjurant Champion 1: Ability Increase (CON)
[9]Abjurant Champion 2: Arcane Strike
[10]Abjurant Champion 3:
[11]Abjurant Champion 4:
[12]Abjurant Champion 5: Improved Sunder, Ability Increase (INT)
[13]Eldritch Knight 1: (Bonus Feat: Combat Brute)
[14]Eldritch Knight 2:
[15]Eldritch Knight 3: Somatic Weaponry
[16]Eldritch Knight 4: Ability Increase (WIS)
[17]Eldritch Knight 5:
[18]Eldritch Knight 6: Craft Magic Arms and Armor
[19]Eldritch Knight 7:
[20]Eldritch Knight 8: Ability Increase (INT)


Wields: preferably a +1 Greatsword

13,000 GP to spend, some of it going into scribing spells

+1 Greatsword 2,350 GP
Heward's Handy Haversack 2,000 GP
Ring of Protection +1 2,000 GP
Gauntlets of Ogre Power 4,000 GP
Masterwork composite longbow (+4 STR) 800 GP
Masterwork warhammer 312 GP

1,538 GP left to spend


Obviously I'd prefer to be as versatile as I can without sacrificing too much combat effectiveness, yet not so powerful as to overshadow the party. I'm going to be on the lookout for items that'll help me accomplish that, though I'd prefer to not wear any armor at all. With 6 coming from Greater Mage Armor and 9 (eventually) coming from Shield, I should be pretty much set in that regard. I'll just stand back, buff and/or bombard, then charge into the fray.

Books available? I have quite a few, but I do not have MiC, Dragon Magic, Cityscape, or Dungeonscape. Thank you all.

-Archetype

[Kol Korran]

first- how is the Raptoran cleric doing?

second- you didn't specify any question. you want out opinion on the build? or just suggestions for equipment? for this post i'll assume the second.

for 1000 gp, you can get either pearl of power (+1 1st level spell), braces of armos +1 (you still won't be wearing armor), or cloak of resistence +1 (i would peronally go for this)

other than that, i'd suggest one or two potions of cure X wounds (moderate= 300, light= 50) just in case.
use whatever you have left for simple scrolls, and other mundane equipment. i like to pack a few alchemical or mundane items that may help in odd circumstances (alchemical fire, tanglefoot bag, smoke sticks, caltrops). they are cheap, and add to your options.

note: i am ignorant as to both human paragon, and abjurant champion, but it seems your spell casting will be lacking all the way... (unless i'm missing something). thee party allready has a wizard, so i'd suggest to choose a spontaneous casting class instead, with more spells per day, to somewhat compensate for the low level of casting. (and focus on buffs, defenses, and... well, you know, i don't need to tell you). warlock? sorcerer? warmage? perhaps even a favored soul? could work well wit the fighter...

ok, that is all. i need to go and seal all the rando mgates to elemental planes, my library, and probably my kitchen next.
Kol.

[Moak]

I am a fan of "Smiting spell" (PHB2) feat for any gish build.
That and spellstoring + Combust (SpC) = realiable damage output.

Why arcane strike? IIRC,was nerfed by an errata..

For equipment...I second the cloak...higher TS are always usefull...

Until you get the AbjChamp,bracer of armor can be good...but I think that Magic Armor can do his work very well..

This is pratically the same build I am playing in a campaign,only using a Stalwart Battle Sorcerer instead...

It's really amusing...

[Swooper]

What's with the fighter levels? If I'm looking at this correctly, you can get into Abjurant Champion with Wizard 4/Human Paragon 3. That way, you lose only one spellcasting level (and then later one more when you take EK1). Personally I'd go that way instead - I prefer higher level spells to a couple of feats and an extra point of BAB.

[zaei]

Why arcane strike? IIRC,was nerfed by an errata..

The CW Errata makes no mention of Arcane Strike...

What about Knight Phantom instead of EK? If you can swing it to your DM to ignore the Eberron specifics, it's strictly better than EK (casting in light armor with no chance of failure, plus a host of other neat abilities).

[Chronos]

What about Knight Phantom instead of EK? If you can swing it to your DM to ignore the Eberron specifics, it's strictly better than EK (casting in light armor with no chance of failure, plus a host of other neat abilities).

Well, Eldritch Knight does give you an extra feat, and the entrance requirements for Knight Phantom are a bit steeper (and also overlap annoyingly with the features the class gives you: You need to be able to cast Phantom Steed, and you gain the ability to produce a phantom steed; you need Still Spell, and you gain Armored Mage).

[Moak]

The CW Errata makes no mention of Arcane Strike...

I cleary remember reading somewhere that was intended to be a swift and not a free action...where? I don't remember...sage advice? Rules compendium?

Boh!

[Archetype-]

OK, I'll tackle these one at a time, starting from the top. OpenOffice, GO!!!

first- how is the Raptoran cleric doing?

Ruadrim is very much alive and well, despite having slightly-worse-than-mediocre HP and routinely facing things like gangs of satyrs and swimming in underground rivers (rivers are, oddly enough, a bane of many adventuring parties around here).

second- you didn't specify any question. you want out opinion on the build? or just suggestions for equipment? for this post i'll assume the second.

As is famously stated around here when all of the above applies, “Yes.”

for 1000 gp, you can get either pearl of power (+1 1st level spell), braces of armos +1 (you still won't be wearing armor), or cloak of resistence +1 (i would peronally go for this)

For equipment...I second the cloak...higher TS are always usefull...

Until you get the AbjChamp,bracer of armor can be good...but I think that Magic Armor can do his work very well..

The cloak is most likely the best idea. I'm not looking at the Bracers of Armor because I plan on spending a lot of time having Mage Armor and eventually Greater Mage Armor up.

note: i am ignorant as to both human paragon, and abjurant champion, but it seems your spell casting will be lacking all the way... (unless i'm missing something).

Human Paragon, courtesy of the SRD.

Abjurant Champion is out of Complete Mage. It's a full BAB, full caster progression PrC that makes abjurations last longer and take a shorter time to cast (i.e., free Quicken Spell and Extend Spell applied).

I am a fan of "Smiting spell" (PHB2) feat for any gish build.
That and spellstoring + Combust (SpC) = realiable damage output.

Why arcane strike? IIRC,was nerfed by an errata..

I considered that feat, as it's in essence Arcane Channeling. As for spell-storing, I've done something similar with a mere 2nd-level core spell. It's fun when the party rogue asks how you're throwing down more dice for damage than he does on a sneak attack.

Arcane Strike was never mentioned in the errata, and I'm not turning down that good a chance to boost my damage output.

What's with the fighter levels? If I'm looking at this correctly, you can get into Abjurant Champion with Wizard 4/Human Paragon 3. That way, you lose only one spellcasting level (and then later one more when you take EK1).

Without the Fighter levels (or at least one level in a martial class), I can't qualify for Eldritch Knight or the Phantom Knight mentioned below. I need proficiency in all martial weapons, something Human Paragon and Abjurant Champion don't give me. There's also the capstone ability of the Abjurant Champion, but I've been debating swapping that out for a level of Eldritch Knight.

What about Knight Phantom instead of EK? If you can swing it to your DM to ignore the Eberron specifics, it's strictly better than EK (casting in light armor with no chance of failure, plus a host of other neat abilities).

Well, Eldritch Knight does give you an extra feat, and the entrance requirements for Knight Phantom are a bit steeper (and also overlap annoyingly with the features the class gives you: You need to be able to cast Phantom Steed, and you gain the ability to produce a phantom steed; you need Still Spell, and you gain Armored Mage).

I really don't believe that I'll get much out of that that I wouldn't get from Eldritch Knight. Also, a couple of the class features are counter-productive as Chronos mentioned above. Besides, I'm not really planning on wearing any armor, so the Armored Mage bit isn't truly needed.

This is pratically the same build I am playing in a campaign,only using a Stalwart Battle Sorcerer instead...

It's really amusing...

And it's really the second time I've used this type of build. The first time, I took the Final Fantasy Dragoon and stuck some arcane magic and used an Elf for the race. Never was so much fun had with a halberd.

<goes to process the feedback whilst mending gates>

-Archetype

[Moak]

I considered that feat, as it's in essence Arcane Channeling. As for spell-storing, I've done something similar with a mere 2nd-level core spell. It's fun when the party rogue asks how you're throwing down more dice for damage than he does on a sneak attack.

Which spell is?

Without the Fighter levels (or at least one level in a martial class), I can't qualify for Eldritch Knight or the Phantom Knight mentioned below. I need proficiency in all martial weapons, something Human Paragon and Abjurant Champion don't give me. There's also the capstone ability of the Abjurant Champion, but I've been debating swapping that out for a level of Eldritch Knight.

If you can squeeze 2 feat inside your build,you can always get the proficiencies with a 1 lvl dip in Dragonslayer (Draconomicon)

[Archetype-]

You ask, and I attempt to answer without failing.

Which spell is?

Scorching Ray. I know it's only fire damage, but I'm a pyro. I love fire and explosions.

If you can squeeze 2 feat inside your build,you can always get the proficiencies with a 1 lvl dip in Dragonslayer (Draconomicon)

Not a bad idea, considering what else I gain. If I just work around the feats a bit, I might manage it. The ranks in Tumble won't be hard thanks to Able Learner.

<ponders more>

-Archetype

[Triaxx]

Of course, if you can talk your DM into letting you take a dip into this class, you can pick up proficencies, and a couple of neat abilities, even if it's only one level. Two levels only loses you a single feat if you do it at level 1.

Spoiler

Show

Cavalier

Alignment: Any Lawful.

Hit Die: d10

Class Skills: The Cavalier's class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Concentration (Con), Handle Animal (Cha), Heal (Wis), Knowledge (religion) (Int) Profession (Wis), Ride (Dex).

Skill Points at 1st level: (2 + Int Modifier) x4
Skill Points at Each additional Level: 2 + Int Modifier

{table=head]Level|Base Attack<br>Bonus|Fort Save|Ref Save|Will Save|Special
1st|

+1

|

+1

|

+0

|

+0

|Lay on Hands, Aura of Law 1/day,
2nd|

+2

|

+2

|

+0

|

+0

|Knightly Grace, Bonus Feat
3rd|

+3

|

+3

|

+1

|

+1

|Smite Foe 1/day
4th|

+4

|

+4

|

+1

|

+1

|Improved Shield Bash
5th|

+5

|

+4

|

+1

|

+1

|Dodge
6th|

+6/+1

|

+5

|

+1

|

+1

|Bonus Feat, Smite Foe 2/day
7th|

+7/+2

|

+5

|

+2

|

+2

|Aura of Law 2/day
8th|

+8/+3

|

+6

|

+2

|

+2

|Noble Mount 1st-Tier
9th|

+9/+4

|

+7

|

+2

|

+2

|Smite Foe 3/day
10th|

+10/+5

|

+7

|

+2

|

+2

|Bonus Feat
11th|

+11/+6/+1

|

+8

|

+3

|

+3

|Ride-by Attack
12th|

+12/+7/+2

|

+8

|

+3

|

+3

|Smite Foe 4/day
13th|

+13/+8/+3

|

+9

|

+3

|

+3

|Cleric Domain-1st, Lance Knight
14th|

+14/+9/+4

|

+9

|

+3

|

+3

|Bonus Feat, Noble Mount 2nd-Tier, Aura of Law 3/day
15th|

+15/+10/+5

|

+10

|

+4

|

+4

|Smite Foe 5/day
16th|

+16/+11/+6/+1

|

+10

|

+4

|

+4

|Combat Reflexes
17th|

+17/+12/+7/+2

|

+11

|

+4

|

+4

|Cleric Domain-2nd
18th|

+18/+13/+8/+3

|

+11

|

+4

|

+4

|Bonus Feat, Smite Foe 6/day
19th|

+19/+14/+9/+4

|

+12

|

+5

|

+5

|Cleric Domain-3rd
20th|

+20/+15/+10/+5

|

+13

|

+5

|

+5

|Bonus Feat, Stalwart Champion, Noble Mount 3rd-Tier[/table]

Class Features:
Weapon and Armor Proficiency: Cavaliers are proficient with all simple and martial weapons, with all types of armor (heavy, medium, and light), and with shields (except tower shields).

Lay on Hands: As per the Paladin ability.

Aura of Law: Aura of Law is a Cavalier's final defense. Used when foes close in around him the Cavalier summons his knowledge of right and law, and projects a feeling of defenslessness and clumsiness against neutral and chaotic foes. Neutral foes take a -1 penalty to AC and BAB, while Chaotic Foes take a -2 penalty to AC and BAB. This effect lasts for 1 round per Cavalier level. The aura can be resisted by a (DC10 + Cavalier level + Cavalier's CHA mod) Will save. A Cavalier may use Aura of Law once per day at first level, and gains additional uses every seven levels.

Stalwart Champion: In exchange for -1's to his Reflex and Will Saves, the Cavalier gain's +1 to his fort save.

Mounted Combat: The Cavalier is treated as always having the mounted combat feat.

Smite Foe: As per the Smite Evil ability, but only against Chaotic or Neutral Foes. A Cavalier gains one use at third level, and an additional use every three levels there after.

Knightly Grace: At 2nd level, a Cavalier has been trained to fight on horseback, and when mounted on a horse or pony gains a +2 competence bonus when attempting to control an untrained animal. When mounted on a warhorse, or warpony, the Cavalier gains a +1 bonus to mounted melee attacks.

Bonus Feat: A Cavalier is granted bonus feat in addition to those she normally receives. Bonus feats may be selected from the fighter bonus feat list.

Improved Shield Bash: At 4th level Cavalier is treated as having the Improved Shield Bash feat while mounted, even if he or she does not meet the requirements.

Dodge: From 5th level on, when mounted a Cavalier is treated as having the dodge feat even if he or she does not meet the requirements for it.

Cleric Domain: A Cavalier, while not necessarily a religious warrior is looked upon with favor by his or her god. At 13th level, a Cavalier may choose one of his or her gods domain's, and use the first level domain power as a Cleric of one quarter the Cavalier's level. At 17th level, the Cavalier gains the second level domain power, as a cleric of one quarter Cavalier level, and at 1th, gains a third level domain power, as a cleric one-quarter of the Cavalier's level. Cavaliers cast based on CHA as Sorcerors, Bards, and Paladins.

Ride-by Attack: At 11th level, if not taken before the Cavalier gains Ride-by Attack while mounted, even he or she does not otherwise qualify.

Combat Reflexes: If he has not taken it at an earlier level, at 16th level, the Cavalier is treated as having Combat Reflexes.

Lance Knight: At 13th level, the Cavalier has become a master of mounted combat, and as such is able to deal double damage when charging mounted wielding with a Sword, or Axe and Shield. Charging with a lance deals triple damage instead. The Cavalier's BAB, and chance to hit rolls are unaffected. The Cavalier also is able to disregard the -2 AC penalty while charging mounted.

Noble Steed: At 8th Level, a Cavalier may spend 1d4 days familiarizing himself with a particular mount, and bind himself to it. In doing so, it becomes a first tier mount. At level 14, it becomes a second tier mount, and at level 20, it becomes a third tier mount. While mounted on his Noble Mount, the Cavalier gains a +1 to his Reflex and Will saves.

If the Cavalier's Noble Steed is killed, it takes a year and a day to become familiar enough with another mount to replace it. Upon the steeds death, the Cavalier loses 200xp per level, with a fort save for half. In addition, the Cavalier must make a fort save, or be treated as having one half his total ride skill until he gains another Steed. Making the fort save reduces the penalty to three-quarters his ride skill. If the Cavalier's Steed is resurrected, the penalty to his ride skill is negated.


Noble Steed
{table=head]Tier|HD|Natural <br> Armor|Str. Adj.|Special
1st|

+2

|

+2

|

+1

|Improved Mounted Combat, DR5/Silver
2nd|

+4

|

+4

|

+2

|Shield Mount
3rd|

+6

|

+6

|

+4

|Mounted Archery, DR10/Silver[/table]


Shield Mount:While mounted on his Noble Steed, the steed gains the Cavalier's Shield Bonus to it's AC against melee attacks.

[Keld Denar]

Have you ever heard of Swiftblade? Its a decent gish class based around casting haste to do different things. At one point, he can cast haste to simulate the effects of a Freedom of Movement, Displacement, and even Time Stop. Its pretty neat. Take a jaunt over to the Gleemax forums and look it up in the Surealodex sticky at the top of the CharOp forums. Its a really strong option, with lots of neat flavor. Great for gishes who like to make with the quickness.

[Archetype-]

Couple fine ideas here... I'll address them in order.

Of course, if you can talk your DM into letting you take a dip into this class, you can pick up proficencies, and a couple of neat abilities, even if it's only one level. Two levels only loses you a single feat if you do it at level 1.

<stuff about cavalier class>

I presume this is a homebrewed class? It looks quite interesting, but in all honesty doesn't fit the character concept. It seems to get the most out of it by relying on mounted combat, something I've never done and don't feel comfortable relying on. What's more, it's restricted to Lawful alignments. This gish is going to be chaotic good, so it's not really a fitting class. As an aside, would you mind PMing me the instructions to make those nifty tables? There's cookies in it for ye.

Have you ever heard of Swiftblade? Its a decent gish class based around casting haste to do different things. At one point, he can cast haste to simulate the effects of a Freedom of Movement, Displacement, and even Time Stop. Its pretty neat. Take a jaunt over to the Gleemax forums and look it up in the Surealodex sticky at the top of the CharOp forums. Its a really strong option, with lots of neat flavor. Great for gishes who like to make with the quickness.

I have, but I didn't really take a close look at it until you suggested it. I must say, I really like the abilities it gets. I like speed in general, but I don't like having to gimp myself to get it (i.e., playing a monk; I've only played one once and he died fast). I'll have to ask my DM about it, and if he approves I'll likely change the gauntlets for gloves of dexterity. Think I'll also pick a two-handed sword more associated with speediness that isn't a katana. It's too tempting to just make a High Elf and pick Improved Weapon Familiarity and swap in levels of Elf Paragon. A courtblade may be suboptimal, but I like it's concept...

Also, I'm assuming that this is the Surreallodex you speak of? I hardly ever visit the CharOp boards, and even then only through links found on this site. [understatement]It's slightly mind-breaking... [/understatement]

Expect a revised concept at some point tonight.

EDIT: I just realized that while almost none of my gaming circles have access and/or subscriptions to Dragon magazine, I can easily point them to Crystal Keep. Just thought I'd mention that.

EDIT 2: The revised concept:


High Elf Battle Sorcerer/Swiftblade/Abjurant Champion, starting level 6
Starting Stats: Str 17, Dex 16, Con 11, Int 13, Wis 13, Cha 17

Proposed Progression:

[1]Battle Sorcerer 1: Dodge
[2]Battle Sorcerer 2:
[3]Battle Sorcerer 3: Mobility
[4]Battle Sorcerer 4: Ability Increase (STR)
[5]Battle Sorcerer 5:
[6] Battle Sorcerer 6: Practiced Spellcaster: Battle Sorcerer
[7]Swiftblade 1:
[8]Swiftblade 2: Ability Increase (CON)
[9]Swiftblade 3: Combat Casting
[10]Abjurant Champion 1:
[11]Abjurant Champion 2:
[12]Abjurant Champion 3: Power Attack, Ability Increase (CHA)
[13]Swiftblade 4:
[14]Swiftblade 5:
[15]Swiftblade 6: Somatic Weaponry
[16]Swiftblade 7: Ability Increase (CHA)
[17]Swiftblade 8:
[18]Swiftblade 9: Arcane Strike
[19]Swiftblade 10:
[20]Abjurant Champion 4: Ability Increase (CHA)


Wields: preferably a +1 Longsword or a +1 Scimitar

13,000 GP to spend, some of it going into scribing spells

+1 Longsword OR +1 Scimitar 2,315 GP
Heward's Handy Haversack 2,000 GP
Ring of Protection +1 2,000 GP
Gloves of Dexterity +2 4,000 GP
Vest of Resistance +1 1,000 GP
Masterwork composite longbow (+3 STR) 700 GP
Masterwork heavy mace 312 GP

673 GP left to spend on mundane and alchemical stuff (fire in the hole!). Speed and buff are obviously the keys here, and I only know one 3rd-level spell... Guess which one?

I'd still love to work in a two-handed exotic weapon in there for kicks, preferably a courtblade or a great falchion. Think I might need to delay getting Power Attack or Abjurant Champion levels for it? I'm guessing so.



-Archetype

[Keld Denar]

I'd go wizard, take the RotW generalist wiz sub level(s), and then take Elf Paragon to cover your proficiencies. You lose 1 CL over your build, which puts you on par for sorcerous casting with your current build. This also nets you your Elven Weapon Familiarity, and the Courtblade has bonus style points in my book.

Battle Sorc is a bad deal. You have so few spells, its really sad. Elven Wiz genereralist or Focused Conjourer would give you similar spells per day with more benefits.

[Triaxx]

Fax Celestis explains it far better than I can here.

It doesn't sound fun, and in a dungeon crawl, even with a small character, it's not very. The class truly shines in an overworld campaign, where it's possible to make use of Ride-By Attack to make Parthian Shots. Better still if the DM'll let you use one of your attacks every ten feet of movement or so.

[Archetype-]

Righty-o. I apologize in advance if this is considered necro-posting. Addressing the points of lussmanj and Triaxx.

I'd go wizard, take the RotW generalist wiz sub level(s), and then take Elf Paragon to cover your proficiencies. You lose 1 CL over your build, which puts you on par for sorcerous casting with your current build. This also nets you your Elven Weapon Familiarity, and the Courtblade has bonus style points in my book.

Battle Sorc is a bad deal. You have so few spells, its really sad. Elven Wiz genereralist or Focused Conjourer would give you similar spells per day with more benefits.

The main reason I considered Battle Sorcerer was the cleric's BAB progression. This guy will be coming in at 6th-level, so I wanted a sure route to the Swiftblade while keeping casting relatively good. I'll also admit that I confused the Abjurant Champion's BAB prerequisite with the Swiftblade's for a moment. I would still get the proficiencies I'd need, but I'd have to take a different feat if I want a courtblade. By RAW, none of the classes involved or considered (i.e., Wizard, Battle Sorcerer, Elf Paragon, Swiftblade, and Abjurant Champion) bestow proficiency with martial weapons, and I doubt a dip into something like Dragonslayer or the like would be worth the feat expenditure in this already feat-starved build. Looks like a job for Exotic Weapon Proficiency. Wizard has the upside of getting access to higher spell levels sooner, so that's actually a plus. I'd love more than two base 8th-level spells, though.

Really good points, man.

It doesn't sound fun, and in a dungeon crawl, even with a small character, it's not very. The class truly shines in an overworld campaign, where it's possible to make use of Ride-By Attack to make Parthian Shots. Better still if the DM'll let you use one of your attacks every ten feet of movement or so.

Unfortunately, campaigns around here don't really facilitate mounted combat. Most of our fights take place either indoors, in dungeons, or in cities. Heck, many of my game's combats have taken place on ships. Pretty much every party either walks or eventually gets airborne. Besides, I really don't trust the mechanics of mounted combat, especially against smart foes. “Shiny guy on a warhorse with a lance? Shoot the mount!!!” Either that or they'll whip out something like a zanbato. <winces> Yes, a zanbato. I have good reason to stay on foot.

Fax Celestis explains it far better than I can here.

Or I could just quote, then copy the code. I'm a genius!

Expect a revised build at some point in the very near future.

-Archetype

[Lochar]

Oddly, Mage Armor and Greater Mage Armor are conjurations, not abjurations, so Abjurant Champion doesn't double them unless you get a specific DM ruling for them.

You might swing Mage armor, seeing as it's named specifically IIRC though.

[marjan]

You might swing Mage armor, seeing as it's named specifically IIRC though.

Errata fixed this. No more Mage Armor for AbCh, only (Greater) Luminous Armor (pretty good if you are exalted).

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Yea, AbChamp doesn't add bonuses to Mage Armor, so it's generally better to run around in Mithral Chain (twilight for no ASF, or see below)

Your build is okay... I guess... but kind of weak. You loose too many caster levels with your build. You won't get 9th level spells. A few suggestions:

Fighter1/Wiz5/EK1/SpellSword1/AbChamp5/EK7

In brief, SpellSword 1 gives caster progression, full BAB, and 10% ASF reduction. So, wear Mithral Chain Shirt with no penalty. Enchant as you see fit. You've got 18/20 casting, which makes the build very worth it. You can drop a Shield spell as a swift action for +9 AC as you wade into melee. You can also pull off typical Batman stunts (like Time Stop/Greater Shadow Evocation to mimic Forcecage/Cloudkill). Specialize Wiz as you like.

Pal2/Sorc6/SpellSword1/Abjurant Champion5/Warmage5/???1

In short, party support and backup tank. He's not supposed to be Batman, he's supposed to be Mr. Buff and Mr. Lockdown. And he does his job with flair. No 9th level spells, but he can drop 4 buffs on the whole party as an action in the first round, so the whole party will love it. Then either drop a Haste or your auto-quickened Shield for more personal AC. Now show the BBEG who's boss. Oh, and you can still do Solid Fog/Cloudkill combos, Black Tentacles, Feebleminds, and other lockdown-ish combos when not mixing it up in melee. Oh yea, one more thing... you get your casting stat to all saves, so bring on those Save Or Loose spells, bring 'em on hard.

[Archetype-]

Time for more replies. Huzzah!

Oddly, Mage Armor and Greater Mage Armor are conjurations, not abjurations, so Abjurant Champion doesn't double them unless you get a specific DM ruling for them.

Errata fixed this. No more Mage Armor for AbCh, only (Greater) Luminous Armor (pretty good if you are exalted).

That was something I already knew without even skimming the errata. Damn me for not mentioning this, but the BoED is actually a very commonly banned book around here. I only use it as a DM resource, and even then I... actually have yet to use it. Besides, I'm really not a fan of the STR damage needed for the casting. Hurting is - in my not-so-humble opinion - something that should be done to the enemy, not you or your allies.

Your build is okay... I guess... but kind of weak. You loose too many caster levels with your build. You won't get 9th level spells.

Have you seen who I'm working with? There is no optimize-fu to be seen or heard. The guy who plays a Barbarian every friggin' time has never, ever made use of Power Attack, but just rages up and chops at it with some sort of axe. The guy who's known for playing casters has two well-known concepts that pretty much everyone in my circle knows about – a Wizard/Blood Magus and a Sorcerer/Gold Dragon Disciple. I optimize too much, and I end up overshadowing party members. As one who has been overshadowed in the past, I'd like to try to avoid that. I'll live without 9th-level spells. We've done so before, and done it quite often. If I really, really want Time Stop, then I'll just cruise to the Swiftblade's capstone. In all honesty, I'm rather liking how it looks. I thank you for your aid, though.

As an aside, that first build looks remarkably similar to my last gish. The one big difference is he didn't have Abjurant Champion levels (didn't have the book at the time).

<brain cogs continue to turn, beginning to emit smoke>

-Archetype

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Swiftblade looses four caster levels over the progression, with the two levels of Fighter and the three of Human Paragon, you're going to be lucky to cast 6th level spells. That looses you a LOT. I'm not trying for an uber-optimized build, but that caster level loss is going to be major telling, and the only real thing you get from Swiftblade is the 3.0 haste.

Try my second build. Sure, it's not very optimized, but then, you're not looking for optimization. What it will do is give you the tactical flexability any good Gish is going to want, and make it hard as hell to really hurt, which is what any good tank is going to want. Toss in Improved Mirror Image (more images, and image regeneration), and he's going to be a very strong front-line fighter with significant battlefield control ability. And, even more importantly, you make the other players more effective by buffing them up, by virtue of Warmage. This means you don't outshine them, because you're busy making them shine.

[Archetype-]

Hold on, lemme clear something up.

Swiftblade looses four caster levels over the progression, with the two levels of Fighter and the three of Human Paragon, you're going to be lucky to cast 6th level spells. That looses you a LOT.

Not as much as your thinking. I'm not even considering Fighter levels or being Human right now. I'm actually leaning more towards a High Elf Battle Sorcerer or Wizard/Elf Paragon. I go the latter route, I'll still have 8th-level spells. 9th-level is packed with awesomeness, sure. I'll make due without. I'll try to flesh out something a bit more specific. I like the suggestion you had here:

Pal2/Sorc6/SpellSword1/Abjurant Champion5/Warmage5/???1

In short, party support and backup tank.

Unfortunately, we start to differ on where he stands in a fight. I like being on the front lines after a short period of buffing, not hanging back and making other people better like a spoony bard. I can still get an auto-quickened Shield, but it's either that or an auto-quicken Haste round one and another buff with a buff or blast coming with the other auto-quickened spell round two. I happen to rather like hitting things and blowing them up.

I double-checked what you said here:

you make the other players more effective by buffing them up, by virtue of Warmage.

But the five levels or Warmage don't really do anything for buffing aside from True Strike and.. that's really it unless you count the one Eclectic learning if I elect to take it. It's really much more of a blasting class, and it's a core class. I'd actually be losing arcane caster levels. Mayhaps you refer to some other War(X) class or PrC?

the only real thing you get from Swiftblade is the 3.0 haste.

From your perspective, at least. Maybe I like the increased movement, the fact that I can effectively cast Displacement and eventually Freedom of Movement on myself by just casting Haste, and something that's effectively Time Stop. Maybe I like that I could potentially boost my initiative into the twenties through a combination of Dex, whatever casting attribute I have, feats, and Nerveskitter. That's more than shiny enough for me, and I'll simply stick to hit-and-run-really-fast tactics. It's not like I won't have the movement for it.

Right, all that in mind... here goes the neighborhood.


High Elf Wizard/Elf Paragon/Swiftblade/Abjurant Champion, starting level 6
Starting Stats: Str 14, Dex 19, Con 11, Int 17, Wis 13, Cha 13

Proposed Progression:

[1]UA Ftr Bonus Feat Wizard 1: Dodge, Elf Wizard Racial Substitution: Generalist Wizardry (Bonus Feat: Mobility)
[2]UA Ftr Bonus Feat Wizard 2:
[3]UA Ftr Bonus Feat Wizard 3: Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Elven Courtblade
[4]Elf Paragon 1: Ability Increase (DEX)
[5]Elf Paragon 2: Bonus Feat: Weapon Focus (Longbow)
[6]Elf Paragon 3: Power Attack, Ability Boost (INT)
[7]Swiftblade 1:
[8]Swiftblade 2: Ability Increase (CON)
[9]Swiftblade 3: Weapon Finesse
[10]Swiftblade 4:
[11]Swiftblade 5:
[12]Swiftblade 6: Combat Casting, Ability Increase (INT)
[13]Abjurant Champion 1:
[14]Abjurant Champion 2:
[15]Abjurant Champion 3: Practiced Spellcaster (Wizard)
[16]Swiftblade 7: Ability Increase (DEX)
[17]Swiftblade 8:
[18]Swiftblade 9: Elusive Target
[19]Swiftblade 10:
[20]Abjurant Champion 4: Ability Increase (DEX)


General battle plan now consists of a brief period of buffing (either prior to combat or not), maybe an Orb of Something or a ray spell, then bounding in and out of combats. The last one will be much easier when Spring Attack comes into play. The rest should be pretty self-explanatory, I believe. A spell-storing courtblade is obviously a must, as is a +X Twilight mithral shirt. By my reckoning, I'll have a BAB of 17, an effective CL of 19, access to 8th-level spells, and a crazy-good initiative modifier even without Improved Initiative. The Dwarf can go ahead and beat stuff with a stick until he learns how to use Power Attack effectively, the Whatever-It-Is can go ahead and get stuck in with whatever he has out. I'll just dart around them all, slashing and stabbing all the while.

<tries to slow his mind down...>

-Archetype

[zaei]

Stuff

You probably don't need somantic weaponry, since you can take your hand off of your courtblade to cast. You might also be able to pick up something a little nicer than Weapon Focus (Elusive Target comes to mind for a character like this).

Otherwise, I like it!

[Archetype-]

You probably don't need somantic weaponry, since you can take your hand off of your courtblade to cast. You might also be able to pick up something a little nicer than Weapon Focus (Elusive Target comes to mind for a character like this).

Otherwise, I like it!

True story. I once did a similar feat while wielding a kusari-gama (don't ask why I was wielding it, just know I watch way too much anime). That one will certainly float. I guess I can drop Somatic Weaponry for Elusive Target, as I can't choose anything other than Weapon Focus at Elf Paragon 2. It's unfortunately already made for me. The other shinies in it offset that, thankfully.

Thank you.

<closes a myriad of splatbooks and other suppliments>

-Archetype

[Keld Denar]

Yea. Too bad you can't get Spring Attack >> Bounding Assault >> Rapid Blitz in there. thats a decent combo, getting 3 attacks on a spring attack. Also, you can PA with a Courtblade, so that might be something to consider. You don't have nearly enough feat slots for all the feats you need to take!

Can you take the Battle Wizard sub from UA that lets you swap your wizard bonus feats for fighter bonus feats? That way, you could nail Dodge/Mobility at 1st level and free up another feat higher up. Maybe Power Attack for good measure.

Also, I gotta pimp my favorite spell. Look up Whirling Blade from SpC. Its THE ranged attack for a Gish. Screw Fireball, give me a non-CL dependant scaleable damage spell that affects multiple opponents. Chant your weapon up pretty with something like Wounding and toss this baby into a pile of baddies. You can also Power Attack with it, and it doesn't count as a ranged attack when "shooting" into melee or behind cover. Since it "attacks" foes as you choose, its also friendly-fire friendly. Throw it right past an ally in the front ranks, and as long as you choose to, the spell doesn't attack them. Its great, the Gish's Gunblade.

[Archetype-]

Few things to cover, I see...

Yea. Too bad you can't get Spring Attack >> Bounding Assault >> Rapid Blitz in there. thats a decent combo, getting 3 attacks on a spring attack. Also, you can PA with a Courtblade, so that might be something to consider. You don't have nearly enough feat slots for all the feats you need to take!

Too true... Dayum, this is feat-intensive enough. To choose between two or three perfectly viable feats when you only have room for one... Rapid Blitz is looking really tempting.

Can you take the Battle Wizard sub from UA that lets you swap your wizard bonus feats for fighter bonus feats? That way, you could nail Dodge/Mobility at 1st level and free up another feat higher up. Maybe Power Attack for good measure.

Lemme check my UA... <does so> Hmm.... can't find it in there. <checks SRD> Oh, there it is. And there it is in the actual book. Damn, I need some ranks in either Spot or Search. That variant is certainly an option. I'll work out the feat rearrangement as I type this up.

Also, I gotta pimp my favorite spell. Look up Whirling Blade from SpC. Its THE ranged attack for a Gish. Screw Fireball, give me a non-CL dependant scaleable damage spell that affects multiple opponents. Chant your weapon up pretty with something like Wounding and toss this baby into a pile of baddies. You can also Power Attack with it, and it doesn't count as a ranged attack when "shooting" into melee or behind cover. Since it "attacks" foes as you choose, its also friendly-fire friendly. Throw it right past an ally in the front ranks, and as long as you choose to, the spell doesn't attack them. Its great, the Gish's Gunblade.

I've only seen this spell used twice. One player, two characters. First time, he was playing a Bard in an undead game I was unable to participate in. Used it with a either a longsword or a double-bladed sword to hose down a line of zombies. Second time, I was a fighter alongside his Warmage... wielding a mercurial katana. So much about that character rubbed me the wrong way, but the mercurial katana bugged me the most... not only is it unrealistic, but he's a friggin' poor BAB class with mediocre HP. The only reason it proved effective for him at all was because he rolled well. Sorry, I digress. I really like that spell, but haven't found a means of trying it out... thanks for the suggestion there.

Also, props for referencing my personal favorite Final Fantasy main protagonist. I think I've found my somatic component for Haste. Also, Wounding never gets old. Ever.

-Archetype

[Keld Denar]

Also, props for referencing my personal favorite Final Fantasy main protagonist. I think I've found my somatic component for Haste. Also, Wounding never gets old. Ever.

-Archetype

Abu-buwha? I've never played any Final Fantasy games past 3 (the SNES one....marvoulous!), so I have no idea what I just referenced. Cheers though! *clink*. The trick with WB is that it is totally dependant on your tohit/weapon rather than your CL. It is a melee attack, so you can combine it with any number of things that require you to hit, like Arcane Strike, Spell Channeling, Power Attack, Weapon Spec/Melee Weapon Mastery, and even silly stuff like Three Mountains if you have the feats to blow. It is also possible to apply metamagic to it. My favorite is Empower, since it only makes it a 4th level spell. Because of the way you multiply the final total of damage from a spell, you'd get a 1.5x return on ALL of your applicable bonuses to damage on a Whirling Blade. 3 damage from Weapon Spec is better than 2, and 3:1 Power Attack is very juicy. If you can get a friendly bard to use Dragonfire Inspiration, you can scythe through a large number of foes as you multiply his xd6 fire into 1.5*xd6 damage. Do this for free with a Caster Glove storing a Lesser Metamagic Rod. Twined Whirling Blade is also possible, as is Quicken, but when you start spending 6th level slots on a gimmik, it stops being as cool, unless you took Arcane Thesis and cast a Still/Silent/Invisible/Empowered/Sculpted/Maximized/Twinned Whirling Blade. That would have some serious style attached to it.

*Blinks*
*sclurrrt*
Evicerated foes fall apart....slowly.

[Archetype-]

Abu-buwha? I've never played any Final Fantasy games past 3 (the SNES one....marvoulous!), so I have no idea what I just referenced. Cheers though! *clink*.

You just unintentionally referenced Squall Leonheart of FFVIII, easily one of the angstiest (though as I mentioned above, personal favorite) main protagonists of the whole FF series. I have a sudden urge to get some FF ROMS, now.

The trick with WB is that it is totally dependant on your tohit/weapon rather than your CL. It is a melee attack, so you can combine it with any number of things that require you to hit, like Arcane Strike, Spell Channeling, Power Attack, Weapon Spec/Melee Weapon Mastery, and even silly stuff like Three Mountains if you have the feats to blow. It is also possible to apply metamagic to it. My favorite is Empower, since it only makes it a 4th level spell. Because of the way you multiply the final total of damage from a spell, you'd get a 1.5x return on ALL of your applicable bonuses to damage on a Whirling Blade. 3 damage from Weapon Spec is better than 2, and 3:1 Power Attack is very juicy. If you can get a friendly bard to use Dragonfire Inspiration, you can scythe through a large number of foes as you multiply his xd6 fire into 1.5*xd6 damage. Do this for free with a Caster Glove storing a Lesser Metamagic Rod. Twined Whirling Blade is also possible, as is Quicken, but when you start spending 6th level slots on a gimmik, it stops being as cool, unless you took Arcane Thesis and cast a Still/Silent/Invisible/Empowered/Sculpted/Maximized/Twinned Whirling Blade. That would have some serious style attached to it.

*Blinks*
*sclurrrt*
Evicerated foes fall apart....slowly.

<rubs eyes> Bwhaaaaaaa??? <line of explitives>

Expensive, extremely feat intensive... yet undeniably awesome. Unless I'm gravely mistaken, it's also apparently a way to get duplicate blades... Good sir, I think my mind's broken again. You frequent the Gleemax CharOp forum a lot, don't you?

-Archetype

[Keld Denar]

You just unintentionally referenced Squall Leonheart of FFVIII, easily one of the angstiest (though as I mentioned above, personal favorite) main protagonists of the whole FF series. I have a sudden urge to get some FF ROMS, now.



<rubs eyes> Bwhaaaaaaa??? <line of explitives>

Expensive, extremely feat intensive... yet undeniably awesome. Unless I'm gravely mistaken, it's also apparently a way to get duplicate blades... Good sir, I think my mind's broken again. You frequent the Gleemax CharOp forum a lot, don't you?

-Archetype

Maybe....you can find my posts under Wyvernhand (I dun optimized the DWARVEN URGOSH for christs sake.) And I've seen WB utilized with a couple of really really nasty builds, the least of which applied metamagic to WB. But, that's a story for another day. Glade I could make you feel nostalgic about old video games. G'night forums!

[Pyroconstruct]

Pal2/Sorc6/SpellSword1/Abjurant Champion5/Warmage5/???1

To clear up the confusion: I think Shneekey meant Warweaver, not Warmage.

The last build you posted (Wizard/Elf Paragon Swiftblade) is pretty good; if the rest of your party is fairly unoptimized you should do excellently.

Also, FF8 sucks.