The Optimized Monk Guide

[AmberVael]

Recently there have been a lot of attempts at this, and yet I don't think any of them really work. So I'm going to take my own crack at it. So here it goes.

Now, first off, before you can actually optimize a class, you have to establish what is unique about the class, and what it can do. The monk...
1) Has High Saves
2) Has Unique Armor Class opportunities
3) Has a high move speed
4) Potentially has the best base damage
5) Has more potential attacks than other classes
6) Has a number of smaller "immunities" and other ways to resist attacks or situations.
7) Has a few special attack options more readily available to it.

What the monk CAN do (and is not just overly skilled or focused at)
1) Close combat
2) Stealth
3) Skilling

However, the range of abilities and it's target abilities seem to point more towards melee than anything else. Armor class, move speed, base damage, more attacks- all of them benefit straight up combat, and the monk's unarmed strikes mean that ranged combat is, for the most part, out of the picture.
The number of abilities focused on combat and attacking should give it an edge over a number of other combat focused classes.

With these capabilities and this focus in mind, lets move forwards to the first part of the build.

The Ability Scores

Spoiler

Show

It's no secret that the monk class has a ton of different abilities, all of which require different abilities. A demonstration of this is below:
1) Strength: Attack bonus and damage. Essential for the monk's focus, which is melee combat.
2) Dexterity: AC, reflex save, and skills. With monk AC being almost entirely dependent on non-armor bonuses, a high dexterity is good to have. Skills also benefit from a good dexterity.
3) Constitution: HP and Fort Save: A monk has a d8 HD, so upping your HP with Con would be a good idea.
4) Intelligence: Luckily not something you're going to have to worry about too much, unless you choose to be a skiller- which isn't the best choice for a monk, and thus has no bearing here!
5) Wisdom: Will saves and AC. Fairly good score to have. It also helps out with Stunning Fist and Quivering palm saves.
6) Charisma: Don't need it! Let someone else talk- you can sit around and say "ommmmmmmmmmmmm..." and meditate.
Still, this leaves four ability scores. Putting them in order of most valuable...
1) Strength
2) Constitution
3) Dexterity
4) Wisdom
With 28 point buy, you'd use the following stats (or some close variation thereof)
16 Strength, 14 Dexterity, 14 Constitution, 8 Intelligence, 14 Wisdom, 8 Charisma

Higher point buys will of course give you a bigger advantage- most classes will be able to really achieve their max potential with 28 point buy or lower, and after that they won't gain as much from having higher stats. So when higher point buy comes in, monks become even better than they already are.
If you're starting at higher levels, it is also important to note that you can use that to your advantage buy choosing odd numbered abilities and adding on your points that you gain at every 4 levels, making the number of points you spend with the point buy system more efficient (as they are fully spread out across all your scores) and maximizing all of your abilities.

Feats- Monk bonus feats and Others

Spoiler

Show

First off, the monk gains a total of three bonus feats.
At first level you have a choice between Improved Grapple and Stunning Fist. Improved grapple relies on a high BAB and more focused strength, so it is better to go with Stunning Fist, which also gives your Wisdom score another purpose.

Second level, you have a choice between Combat Reflexes and Deflect Arrows. If you're moving into more epic campaigns, Deflect Arrows can be worthwhile, but otherwise, you'll find more uses for Combat Reflexes.

Sixth level, either Improved Disarm or Improved Trip. This is a rather difficult decision to make for a monk. On one hand, a monk has a much larger disadvantage with Disarm since they will be using their bare hands. On the other hand, Improved Trip won't work on as many enemies (since you can only trip enemies one size larger than yourself). I would choose Improved Trip, personally, as it allows extra attacks, and synergizes with Combat Reflexes more easily.

As for other feats, the notable feats for Monks are:
-Improved Natural attack (keep upping that high base damage)
-Superior Unarmed Strike (From ToB. Also ups your base damage)
-Weapon Finesse (helps to keep your MAD down a lot more, though it may mean less ability to deal damage)
-Power Attack (ups Damage)
-Shadow Blade (ToB, high feat expenditure, unless you take a dip in swordsage, but can really help with MAD, allowing you to focus almost entirely on Dex instead of strength)
-Martial Study (Again, ToB. Possibilities are endless. Mighty Throw can give Improved trip a good use, all of the Concentration based maneuvers make alot of the monk's skills more useful...)
-Improved Toughness (Complete Warrior- ups your more fragile HP)
-Spring Attack (with your speed, this chain can prove very useful, as well as a lot of the feats from the PHB II which can improve on it)
-Ability Focus (Good for Quivering Palm or Stunning Fist since you don't necessarily have the ability to focus on your Wisdom score)

Skills

Spoiler

Show

We've already settled that Monks are meant for combat. So how best to use their skills?

Here are my choices and reasoning:
-Balance: Don't focus on it, but get a bit of skill in it to avoid things like grease or slippery surfaces, or so you can move around in combat more easily.
-Escape Artist: With lower BAB and unfocused strength, a grappling monster could eat you. Use Escape Artist to avoid that.
-Listen and Spot: Noticing things before anyone else? Ability to (perhaps) spot invisible creatures? Good for combat- allows you to get surprise or not be surprised.
-Tumble: Avoid AoOs. Move through enemy squares. It's very handy. If you use none of the other skills listed, get this one.

The Build
This is it- this is what you really want to see. Where is this effective monk, you ask? Surely it isn't possible?
My answer to the accusations of the monk's effectiveness are below.

Spoiler

Show

No, it's not possible. Are you ****ing kidding me? Even if you use all of the above advice (which was half thrown together by me so I could type THIS, so maybe you'd better look somewhere else anyways) and get 40 point buy, the barbarian is still going to take a paddle to you and all you're going to get out of the encounter is humiliation and a red butt! You're a gimp! You are a jack of all trades- because you got kicked out of the specialty school and had to learn everything else as you scrounged for part time adventure jobs from the Wal-Marts and McDonalds of D&D campaign settings. No one wants you- they get funny expressions on their faces when you explain your intent to learn how to punch out scale and iron clad monsters with your bare, scrawny hands, and then say "maybe you should try somewhere else."
Sure you have some kind of mystical power of body perfection backing you up, but that's like saying I've reinforced paper with cardboard, you still can't use it to build something solid; unless of course you use certain geometric shapes, but I don't think monks are designed to be turned into tiny cylinders, and until you figure out how to do that with monks, you don't have anything to brag about.

Come on, monk. Sure the concept is cool, okay, yeah, I like your style. But you're just a pale imitator, a little kid who decided that one day, one day he wants to fly around and fight like the people in Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon. News flash, Monk boy- wrong turn. You were supposed to get off about twenty miles down the road, off onto Swordsage Drive, not into Wannabe Bruce Lee Parkway.
Come back in a few years, maybe get some Homebrew touch up work. Maybe they'll let you into 4th edition. Oh wait, you're not one of the base classes? Guess they learned from that mistake. Well, stinks to be you. In the meantime, I'm going to go hang out with the Tome of Battle crew.

What, still want a build? Want to be defined and play as best you can? Okay, here it is, really simple for you. Best monk build:
Page 197, PHB II. Class Level Rebuilding. Let me tell you- it'll be the best thing ever for a Monk.

[Azerian Kelimon]

Vael, you win a cookie...

Spoiler

Show

...of doom. Or a loli, if you want one.


Really, that advice is golden. Pity a monk cannot be as good as a mystic swordsage (Which is a wizard that never runs out of spells, has a better BAB, and better HD, not to mention CLASS FEATURES!), though.

[Reel On, Love]

Or a loli, if you want one.

Because pedophilia is freaking awesome! Woooo! Oh, wait, no.

What the hell, dude? What the hell? This isn't 4chan.

[Azerian Kelimon]

See, that's called the Illusion of free choice.

Not to mention, that's a point that I've interestingly proved to just be a sociological idea, not a truly evil thing. I'll give you a link to the thread in which I discussed the subject.

Edit: Aha, here. Read up my answers to Swordguy.

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=80671

[Reel On, Love]

See, that's called the Illusion of free choice.

Not to mention, that's a point that I've interestingly proved to just be a sociological idea, not a truly evil thing. I'll give you a link to the thread in which I discussed the subject.

No, dude. Just no. Get off to whatever you want as long as nobody's harmed by it, but let's not start pretending it's anything other than what is.

[Jack Mann]

See, I always figured I'd see someone go insane on these boards, but I was never sure just who it would be.

[lord_khaine]

this is actualy a quite decent beginners monk guide, to bad you dont have more confidence in it.

Really, that advice is golden. Pity a monk cannot be as good as a mystic swordsage (Which is a wizard that never runs out of spells, has a better BAB, and better HD, not to mention CLASS FEATURES!), though.

doohh...
a monk cant quite messure up against that new type of class, that was made to brigde the gasp between casters and noncasters, how can this in any way be a surprise?

of course, its not like every Gm allows the use of ToB in their games.

[Azerian Kelimon]

Interesting, that could go for anyone of us, Vael, Reel, or me.

Incidentally, like I pointed out in that thread, it is NOT age that is the problem, it's taking the choice for someone else or forcing another free person. What matters there is maturity, not age.

[Jack Mann]

this is actualy a quite decent beginners monk guide, to bad you dont have more confidence in it.



doohh...
a monk cant quite messure up against that new type of class, that was made to brigde the gasp between casters and noncasters, how can this in any way be a surprise?

of course, its not like every Gm allows the use of ToB in their games.

Yes, there are some GMs who still need an introduction to the broken pool cue of truth.

[Illiterate Scribe]

Reel On Love: you won't find that stuff on 4chan, since Moot declared it a 'grey area' (sending WT Snacks, with his epic level moderator progression, and artifact-level banhammer, v&ing with extreme prejudice anything that, well, he felt like).

Also: you win, Vael. I shall dig about for some sort of tribute that is neither edible nor legal-in-few-places-save-Japan.

[Reel On, Love]

Interesting, that could go for anyone of us, Vael, Reel, or me.

Incidentally, like I pointed out in that thread, it is NOT age that is the problem, it's taking the choice for someone else or forcing another free person. What matters there is maturity, not age.

The problem here is that prepubescents are not for sex. Period. And if you don't understand that, something's deeply wrong.

[Azerian Kelimon]

Legal, sought after...

AAAAH!

Either this...



...or this.

[Azerian Kelimon]

The problem here is that prepubescents are not for sex. Period. And if you don't understand that, something's deeply wrong.

Why? Because society says so? There is nothing that makes it impossible. Like I repeat, ad infinitum, the problem lies on maturity. Which, of course, most people achieve later in their lives, and some never do.

[Illiterate Scribe]

Seriously, Azerian. As a fellow Anon, I implore you to listen to my avatar, and get off 12chan right now.

Hey, do I hear a party van outside the door, AK? Look, it's for you! Your own special party van!


Anyway - I wouldn't compare the monk to a mystic swordsage, since those things are just ridiculous. Normal swordsages are still many, many times better.

[Reel On, Love]

Why? Because society says so? There is nothing that makes it impossible. Like I repeat, ad infinitum, the problem lies on maturity. Which, of course, most people achieve later in their lives, and some never do.

Because they're not sexual beings, Az. That's what "prepubescent" means.
I'm not going to sit here and explain to you why diddling kids is wrong. If you don't get it, you won't get it.

I'll just invite you to take a seat right over there.

[Azerian Kelimon]

Dunno why you freak out, guys. All I say is obviously from a purely hypothetical standpoint. What I say will (probably) never occurr because no child has EVER reached that kind of maturity at such an early age. EVER. There might be exceptions, but those would probably number in the mere dozens.

Seriously, chill out. Why're you acting so oddly? It's all philosphical musings.

[Reel On, Love]

Dunno why you freak out, guys. All I say is obviously from a purely hypothetical standpoint. What I say will (probably) never occurr because no child has EVER reached that kind of maturity at such an early age. EVER. There might be exceptions, but those would probably number in the mere dozens.

Seriously, chill out. Why're you acting so oddly? It's all philosphical musings.

Because "here, have a loli as a reward" trivializes it and tries to pass it off as acceptable, when it's not.

Some people can't help wanting kids. As long as all they do is fantasize, they're not doing anything wrong. They should be helped.
But that doesn't mean it should be freaking encouraged or passed off as acceptable.

[Azerian Kelimon]

Jeeze, talk about being paranoid. Maybe you should listen to some Play The Game and chill out. What's next, outright flaming me and accusing me of machismo and wanting to enslave the bigger half of the planet's population if I link to Warrant's Cherry Pie?

[Charity]

Because "here, have a loli as a reward" trivializes it and tries to pass it off as acceptable, when it's not.

Some people can't help wanting kids. As long as all they do is fantasize, they're not doing anything wrong. They should be helped.
But that doesn't mean it should be freaking encouraged or passed off as acceptable.

Very much this.

[Chronicled]

4chan? In MY Playground?!

[Renegade Paladin]

Why? Because society says so? There is nothing that makes it impossible. Like I repeat, ad infinitum, the problem lies on maturity. Which, of course, most people achieve later in their lives, and some never do.

[Reel On, Love]

Jeeze, talk about being paranoid. Maybe you should listen to some Play The Game and chill out. What's next, outright flaming me and accusing me of machismo and wanting to enslave the bigger half of the planet's population if I link to Warrant's Cherry Pie?

If you can't tell the difference between a music video and casually suggesting pedophilic actions as a reward...

[Azerian Kelimon]

Very much this.

Very much my answer above. Reel's response is that of a nutjob. I very much endorse Mel Brooks' philosophy: Make the horrible things humorous, so that we can face them and they don't happen again. If he ever manages to make Hitler so humorous so that he cannot be taken seriously anymore (Which is his stated goal), Brooks will be my hero.

[Charity]

^ giving out loli as a reward achieves this how?

but -
We are crapping on Vaels thread of win guys could we not?

[Azerian Kelimon]

If you can't tell the difference between a music video and casually suggesting pedophilic actions as a reward...

If you can't tell the difference between semi-philosophic musings and sarcasm...Then you are very much lost and things are not going to go well in life for you.

[AmberVael]

Here I was wanting to write up a sarcastic rant, and it got polluted by 4chan-esque posting arguments.

[Reel On, Love]

If you can't tell the difference between semi-philosophic musings and sarcasm...Then you are very much lost and things are not going to go well in life for you.

"Here, have a loli" is not semi-philosophic musings.
It's "pedophilia? It's AWWWWRIIIIIGHT."

Just... drop it, dude. Seriously, drop it. It wasn't okay, it isn't okay, and it'll never be okay. All you're doing is turning yourself into the resident Creepy Guy.

[Illiterate Scribe]

4chan? In MY Playground?!

Nah, they got kicked out of there years ago. Look at tripling that figure.

Sorry to derail your thread, Vael. *bows*

May I also recommend another useful Monk feat? Tashalatora, from Secrets of Sarlona. Now that's a nice feat.

Take your first level in Monk (preferably with Kung Fu genius, too, although that's a little feat intensive), and go, I dunno, Erudite, or psychic warrior if you can wean yourself off full casters, the rest of the way. It makes psionic class levels count as monk levels for:

• unarmed damage
• AC
• flurry of blows

thus proving the old adage; to be a good monk, take as few levels as possible in the class.

[Azerian Kelimon]

Vael: 4chan-esque? Never. 4chan has probably never produced a debate of this caliber.

Reel, I was referring to the following posts. Really, if you're going to be Thick as a Brick, you should at least show off your theme song.

[Charity]

Here I was wanting to write up a sarcastic rant, and it got polluted by 4chan-esque posting arguments.

Sorry Vael