A pvp fight I've never done. Need some advice.

[Frosty]

I've been challenged to a PvP fight for fun, and I've never done this particular versus before so I'm asking for a bit of advice. Detail as follows:

ECL: 12
32 point buy.
Me: Beguiler 11/Mindbender 1
Him: Monk 12

Standard WBL, but consumables and charged items cost 5 times as much. No partially depleted items allowed. No wand of polymorph, candles abuse, wand of Celerity, etc because those are just too full of Gouda.

Books allowed: PHB, PHB2, Unearthed Arcana, Complete Warrior, Mage, Adventurer, Dee-vine, Book of Exalted Deeds, Tome of Magic, Races of the Wild, Destiny, Stone, Eberron, and Lord of Madness. No Magic Item Compendium.

There will be fights in two settings. The first is in an empty abandoned ancient city, compromised of ruined buildings. Plenty of hiding places and room to run around without having to worry about running into people/crowds. The second is in a populated city of 10,000 people. Plenty of chances to blend in with crowds (and Mindsight less valuable, since there are so many minds). Charming/dominating bystanders to fight for me is forbidden. Eversmoking bottle also would get the Monk in trouble in the populated city because logically, the people would complain.

The first to fall unconscious or die, loses. Assume sleeping is not required.

Now, as I do have Spot and Listen as class skills, I'm not hugely worried about Hide and Move Silently. In the ruins, Mindsight would also help alert to when the Monk approaches. My worry is if my opponent pulls the eversmoking bottle tactic. With total concealment, I can't target the enemy, and I'm not sure how to get Blindsight without the MiC. Also, Monk Will saves are good, so I've gotta hope I don't he doesn't save against most everything I throw at him. Not to mention Monks have a +2 bonus against Enchantments iirc. FoM will make grappling irrelevant, and I can make it last a long time with a Rod of Extend. And since I also have Silent and Still spell for free, I can Silent/Still cast FoM even in a grapple.

What kind of tactics/build might a Monk use against a Beguiler and what feats/items can I do to prepare?

[Draz74]

Charming/dominating bystanders to fight for me is forbidden.

That's like a fight where the Cleric is told, "no healing (yourself) allowed."

[Kurald Galain]

Start off by maximizing your saving throw DC.

32 point buy means you can afford an 18 int; add +2 for levels, +4 from an item, and if allowed, pick any race that gives +2 more (for a total of 26, that's +8 to the DC). Then, take Spell Focus and Greater SF (+2) and all the DC boosting items you can find (there's a Veil that gives +2, and a ioun stone, and more). Since the Book of Exalted Cheese is allowed, tack on Vow of Nonviolence for an additional +4.

Saving throw of 27 + spell level. That's gotta hurt. And while you're at it, try something similar for initiative.

[SamTheCleric]

The veil he speaks of is the Veil of Allure, it adds +2 to the DCs of all Enchantment spells... Magic Item Comp.

[Frosty]

MiC is not allowed for this fight. And I can't take Exalted feats. Mindbender makes me non-good by default.

[Azerian Kelimon]

Get Overland flight or a scroll of it. Then, plink the loser with a crossbow.

[Nohwl]

those rules seem pretty limiting. why did you agree to them?

[Frosty]

There's no lack of cover. Buildings everywhere. Even abandoned buildings can be intact and block crossbow bolts. Besides, he's a monk. I can only fire one crossbow bolt per round. Snatch arrows can catch that bolt (and maybe throw it back at me)

[Kurald Galain]

MiC is not allowed for this fight. And I can't take Exalted feats. Mindbender makes me non-good by default.

If Veil of Allure is in the MiC (I wasn't sure), stick with a Headband +4 instead.

I'm reasonably sure you can start with neutral alignment, become a Mindbender around level 6, and then change your alignment to good and take an exalted vow.

Also, as always with beguilers, consider taking Arcane Disciple for a few nasty surprises. Who says beguilers can't have summon spells or fire beams?

[Frosty]

I'm reasonably sure you can start with neutral alignment, become a Mindbender around level 6, and then change your alignment to good and take an exalted vow.

Then I'd lose all of my Mindbender class abilities because I no longer qualify for the class, and by extension, I'd lose my Mindsight.

[Azerian Kelimon]

Meh, this is really easy. Get something like a wisdom draining ray if there is one, then cast a mind fog learned through advanced learning. Then, Feeblemind. To top off, a touch of idiocy, then coup de grace until the monk dies down.

[Draz74]

Meh, this is really easy. Get something like a wisdom draining ray if there is one,

which I don't think there is.

then cast a mind fog learned through advanced learning. Then, Feeblemind. To top off, a touch of idiocy, then coup de grace until the monk dies down.

Seems rather roundabout. Damage his wisdom first, just so you can damage his Int/Cha later for the kill?

[Azerian Kelimon]

which I don't think there is.



Seems rather roundabout. Damage his wisdom first, just so you can damage his Int/Cha later for the kill?

Exactly, Because monks have pretty good saves. And feeblemind reduces him directly to teh onez, not to mention the whole number of spells is an exercise in a very evil humiliation conga. In any case, if there's no ray, there was a spell that did at least 2d6 WIS damage, save for half. Unless you roll two ones, that'll be enough to use Mind fog and start playing with your new little toy.

[Kurald Galain]

Then I'd lose all of my Mindbender class abilities because I no longer qualify for the class, and by extension, I'd lose my Mindsight.

While that interpretation certainly makes sense, unlike certain other (prestige) classes with alignment restrictions, Mindbender does not describe any consequences of your character changing alignment. So one could argue either way.

Touch of Idiocy reduces wisdom. It's not a ray, but there's metamagical ways around that. That said, draining the monk's wisdom doesn't sound like such a strong strategy to me.

Oh yeah, more strategy? Grab Quicken Spell and Rapid Metamagic. Pelt the monklet with two save-or-loses per turn until he drops.

[Iku Rex]

So if I get this straight you've decided on Beguiler11/Mindbender1, with Mindsight (LoM 126) at level 12. You want suggestions for other feats, ability scores and items based on the books allowed. What about race? Advanced learning?


Also, you say Unearthed Arcana is "allowed", which doesn't make any sense. It's a collection of campaign (house) rules for DMs. Which rules have your DM allowed?

[Azerian Kelimon]

Oh, of course. How could I be such an idiot?

Get a few scrolls of Enervation. Use THAT to reduce his saves or plain kill him. Problem solved.

[Burley]

Pump that DC as high as you can before the battle.
Get yourself a Familiar when you can, preferably something that can fly.
Throw a Glitterdust at him. While he's blinded, have your Familiar deliver a Touch of Idiocy, which will reduce his will save, his AC and the DC for his Stunning Fist, if he's using it. Spam that until he's a vegetable. It may take a couple of good rolls, but if he's blinded you'll be relatively safe. If you don't think you'd stand a chance at blinding him (because his Will save will be high) You have Greater Invisibility by now, right?

If you're allowed to cast any spells prior to the "3,2,1...Fight!":
Expedious retreat to counter his speed
Spider Climb (depending on terrain) to get away from his attacks and make your familiar do your dirty work

[Frosty]

So if I get this straight you've decided on Beguiler11/Mindbender1, with Mindsight (LoM 126) at level 12. You want suggestions for other feats, ability scores and items based on the books allowed. What about race? Advanced learning?

That is correct, except why wait until level 12 to take Mindsight? But yes, I'd like suggestions for feats, ability scores (18 in Int obviously), and items based ont he allowed books. Race can be any race of LA +1 or lower that is Medium or Small size that is found in the books listed. Advanced learning can come from any wizard/sorc enchantment/illusion spell found in the books listed, plus the Spell Compendium.

Also, you say Unearthed Arcana is "allowed", which doesn't make any sense. It's a collection of campaign (house) rules for DMs. Which rules have your DM allowed?

Well basically, there are some altenrative class features for the monk in the book, so the monk could conceivably take those. Also, up to 2 flaws for each character.

If you're allowed to cast any spells prior to the "3,2,1...Fight!":

Well they will be randomly dropped into the city not knowing where the other is, but knowing what the other looks like in his default form. They can then spen their time buffing and looking for the other as they wish.

Get a few scrolls of Enervation.

But how do I get past the smoke bottle problem if he decides to go with that? I can't target him if I can't see him unless I've got blindsight or something.

[Arbitrarity]

Mindsight might help with smoke bottles?

Touch of idiocy doesn't stack.

Yeah, enervate him to fail, then toss save or loses repeatedly.

[Azerian Kelimon]

Something like Lightning Bolt, shot in a line, should work. If you have Knowledge Arcane, you can bargain with your DM to make a check to notice it's an eversmoking bottle.

Or of course, any way to produce winds. THEN Orb of sound it or the like.

[Frosty]

Mindsight is like blindsense sort of of. I know they're there, but I still can't target them with a targeted spell. I guess Whelming Burst could work well enough. If I take Blind-fight, I *could* go for an Overhwhelm.

Azerian: You want me to be a Gia-Beguiler? UMD as the answer for everything? That's the only way I'll produce wind or orbs of sound.

[Azerian Kelimon]

Nope, UMD just sets the stage. See, the only thing monk has going for it is survival. A monk worth his salt will have gross saves, so your only trick, Save or X, will be nigh useless if the monk preps up (One Cloak of resistance +5 and you're screwed). Thus, you need to knock the saves down a few pegs, which is where scrolls come in.

Not to mention, the difference is that Gia is utterly useless without complicated economic cheese and wands. You, meanwhile, simply pick appropriate gear for your fight, simply what a wiseman would do.

Or d'you prefer being blind because of the bottle, useless because the monk makes the saves, and loser because you overestimated what is, after all, a limted spell list?

[FlyMolo]

Well, the eversmoking bottle is only a problem if you let it be. He has to carry it around, right? Stay far away from it, on top of a building, or somesuch. Get a wand of fireball. Wait until he moves it. Then fireball the area. If he doesn't move it, just sit and wait. Shoot xbow bolts into it every so often, working over the area. With an eversmoking bottle, he'll be flatfooted. He can't see you, ergo you can't see him. And make sure he can't sneak out of the area. If the area is huge, just pepper it with bolts. They're light, and a BoH can hold thousands. The chances are tiny that you'll hit him, but the odds are still in your favor. It'll take hours at least to hit him enough to kill him, but you've got time. And if he moves it, fireball the new smaller area. In fact, you could keep fireballing where you think the center of the area is, looking to destroy the bottle.

So, hang back, pepper the cloud with bolts, then fireball when he moves.

[Kurald Galain]

If you think this is going to be an endurance battle, grab a reserve feat or two.

You can even use Arcane Disciple or Advanced (eclectic) Learning to grab some modicum of energy spell, then use one of the several blasty reserve feats to cast it forever. Does more damage than a crossbow bolt.

[Frosty]

So I use a wand to Gust of Wind or something, and then next round I cast enervation? I don't think that's fast enough.

[Frosty]

If you think this is going to be an endurance battle, grab a reserve feat or two.

You can even use Arcane Disciple or Advanced (eclectic) Learning to grab some modicum of energy spell, then use one of the several blasty reserve feats to cast it forever. Does more damage than a crossbow bolt.

Eccletic learning not allowed in this fight. Arcane Disciple is fine.

Hmm, Otto's Irresistable Dance has no save, and can be bought as a level 6 scroll if created by a bard...

[Azerian Kelimon]

So I use a wand to Gust of Wind or something, and then next round I cast enervation? I don't think that's fast enough.

O RLY?

Use Solid Fog, the ONLY spell on your list that is good in-combat and not a save or X. Cast behind yourself and once you smash the bottle, move back. If the monk wants to get close for fisticuffs, that's AT LEAST four rounds, if you DON'T move. The monk is now perfectly useless.

Just relax and take your time. The monk is but a nuisance, your new little toy to play with.

[Frosty]

How do I smash the bottle if the Monk is carrying it?

[Azerian Kelimon]

How do I smash the bottle if the Monk is carrying it?

A gust of wind, then one CL 10 fireball or the like, or possibly an orb, AIMED AT THE BOTTLE. Or Shatter.

[Frosty]

Am I allowed a sunder attempt with a ranged attack? Don't I need a feat for that or something?

The fireball won't work because the item is attended. The Monk gotta roll a 1 on his ref save before the item has a chance of getting damaged.

Doesn't Shatter only work on non-magical items? I guess I can gust of wind, Dispel Magic the Bottle, then Shatter it. But that's 3 turns. The Monk can just run away to wait for the Dispel to wear off.