Shadow Sun Ninja build! Help!

[Skylord414]

I'm pretty new to the forum and need some help building a new character.
I recently picked up the Tomb of Battle and the Tome of Magic and decided to build a character using the Shadow Sun Ninja.
I've looked around for quite a while, but haven't been able to find a build for a Shadow Sun Ninja which my DM would allow as he is a pretty tough.

We are starting our campaign at level 20, so im trying to make a build which includes all 10 levels of SSN, only i don't know what other classes to use, or how to make effective use of the stances/maneuvers . I wanted to create quite a mystical feeling character based around the whole shadowy idea who can still dish out some punishment (in whatever form), however due to my DM i can only use 3 classes in my build.

Any help would be appreciated!

[Adumbration]

Unarmed Swordsage variant would probably be the best place sto start.

[Skylord414]

Only problem with that is that it would then lack alot of defense, seeing as the unarmed variant cant use light armor and doesn't get the AC bonus of a monk (does the swordsage's AC bonus stack with a monks?).

I think it may be worth going to level 6 with Monk, as then i would get all the bonus feats, as well as evasion.

[Vortling]

Only problem with that is that it would then lack alot of defense, seeing as the unarmed variant cant use light armor and doesn't get the AC bonus of a monk (does the swordsage's AC bonus stack with a monks?).

I think it may be worth going to level 6 with Monk, as then i would get all the bonus feats, as well as evasion.

Either custserv or the sage has stated that the swordsage's AC bonus doesn't stack with the monk's, and it's just common sense. However there's nothing that says the unarmed variant can't use light armor. It's just not proficient with the armor. There's a big difference there. You still get the armor bonus for wearing armor without the right proficiency. As long as your armor doesn't have any armor check penalty there's no penalty for wearing non-proficient armor.

[Meat Shield]

I would definitely take a two level dip in monk before starting the SSN progression. You will want the progression of movement, AC, and flurry as you go up in SSN. Six levels in monk may be a bit much, as you will want as many maneuvers as you can get your sneaky little hands on and you don't get any with monk.

Also look at Master of Nine - boo-koo maneuvers and that dual stance thing is just too good and cool to pass up.

[Meat Shield]

Look at this. Just a first dirty pass at a build. Maybe switch out the last three levels of Master of Nine to the end of the build -actually yes, do that. Get the higher level maneuvers with Master of Nine.

Riki Tiki McNinjapants

[Adumbration]

Maybe get Weapon Finesse and Shadow Blade to minimize the little MAD you have? Then you practically wouldn't even need strength. Just focus on Dex, Wis and Con.

[Azerian Kelimon]

Maybe get Weapon Finesse and Shadow Blade to minimize the little MAD you have? Then you practically wouldn't even need strength. Just focus on Dex, Wis and Con.

Actually, not. While those two are good for maneuverless combatants, for a swordsage...




...Because your save or X maneuvers still use STR and they're too tasty to pass up. The trick would be to reduce Dex dependency, in fact.

[Adumbration]

... Ummm, could you point me to some of those maneuvers that use STR for save DC or otherwise just use it? Since I just shuffled through Shadow Hand and Desert Wind, the two prominent Swordsage disciplines, and couldn't find a single one. Maybe if you were focusing on something like Stone Dragon, althought I wouldn't know, since I'm not so familiar with them.

Also read the title. Does "Shadow Sun" say anything to you?

[Azerian Kelimon]

... Ummm, could you point me to some of those maneuvers that use STR for save DC or otherwise just use it? Since I just shuffled through Shadow Hand and Desert Wind, the two prominent Swordsage disciplines, and couldn't find a single one. Maybe if you were focusing on something like Stone Dragon, althought I wouldn't know, since I'm not so familiar with them.

Also read the title. Does "Shadow Sun" say anything to you?

Simple: Shadow hand has such as Hand of doom (Though I believe some were Wis based), but most importantly, there is Tiger Claw and Diamond mind, both of which have very nifty STR based SoX's, such as the Feral Death Blow.

[MorkaisChosen]

Tiger Claw has the tasty awesome Feral Death Blow, which is available to Swordsages. Although an SSN will be concentrating on Shadow Hand and Setting Sun, you may be able to spare a few maneuvers for that (it only needs 4 other TC maneuvers as a prereq, and you have maneuvers coming out of your ears as a Swordsage...).

[Adumbration]

Simple: Shadow hand has such as Hand of doom (Though I believe some were Wis based), but most importantly, there is Tiger Claw and Diamond mind, both of which have very nifty STR based SoX's, such as the Feral Death Blow.

Hand of Death, if that's what you mean, is Wis-based. And if you're willing to get big MAD in return of upping the save DC by 5 or 6 (Feral Death blow, 19 + str, whoppidi-duu, and it works on a failed save as well), you're doing it wrong.

[Eldariel]

Do focus on one stat; that way, you won't end up like a Monk. Dex-focus? Weapon Finesse > Shadow Blade, as mentioned. Wis-focus? Intuitive Attack, enough Swordsage levels to add Wis-damage to Strikes. Str-focus? Two levels of Bloodclaw Master, TWF Fists, forget about AC.

All of them have good maneuvers; there's no right and wrong way to choose, they're all quite viable. If you have the stats to pull it off, you can max multiples of them, but generally single stat focus is just plain better. All 3 of those make for different school- and maneuver-focuses (although all of them will use the vast arsenal of no-save maneuvers too).

Save-stats of the SS school go as follows:
Desert Wind: Wisdom (Reflex)
Diamond Mind: Strength (Will)
Setting Sun: Strength/Dexterity (Reflex)
Shadow Hand: Wisdom (Fortitude)
Stone Dragon: Strength (Fortitude)
Tiger Claw: Strength (Fortitude)


In other words, if you pick Str, you'll probably focus most on the save-or-X maneuvers, while with Dexterity you'll focus on extra attack and no save maneuvers. Wisdom is somewhere inbetween; unfortunately there're no Wisdom-keyed Will-save maneuvers. Note that judicious dips in Swordsage between SSN levels will give you an access to higher level non-Setting Sun/Shadow Hand-maneuvers.

[Azerian Kelimon]

Hand of Death, if that's what you mean, is Wis-based. And if you're willing to get big MAD in return of upping the save DC by 5 or 6 (Feral Death blow, 19 + str, whoppidi-duu, and it works on a failed save as well), you're doing it wrong.

So, I get to choose between ending a fight quick and less MAD, less space for customization, and a limited array of weapons?

Come over 'ere, Feral. Ye're mah best friend!

And it's not only Feral. All of the Diamond Mind ones work off of STR, and you won't deny Diamond Mind is either the best or second best discipline out there.

[Adumbration]

Meh, I think it's the way Eldariel says. We're having a difference of an opinion on what to focus on. I personally think that focusing on Dex and Wis and going for Desert Wind, Shadow Hand and Setting Sun with a couple of stray maneuvers from the others is good, if not downright great and fun to play. You get solid stuff and you only have to worry about a couple of stats. (Also, this is something I've been wondering. When you're fighting unarmed, what is considered off-hand? I mean, on which attacks you only gain half your strength?)

[Azerian Kelimon]

Meh, I think it's the way Eldariel says. We're having a difference of an opinion on what to focus on. I personally think that focusing on Dex and Wis and going for Desert Wind, Shadow Hand and Setting Sun with a couple of stray maneuvers from the others is good, if not downright great and fun to play. You get solid stuff and you only have to worry about a couple of stats. (Also, this is something I've been wondering. When you're fighting unarmed, what is considered off-hand? I mean, on which attacks you only gain half your strength?)

But you still lose out on the big cheese. Because honestly, we ALL know the real deal lies in Diamond Mind (With things like Diamond Nightmare Blade, colloquially known as "If I do not TWF, this is my I Win", or Avalanche of blades, which gets to truly devastating levels if you find a way to swiftcast Wraithstrike, and the awe inspiring stance of alacrity) and Tiger Claw (Which has what might be the best Swordsage maneuver, Swooping Dragon strike, not to mention tasty boosts like Raging Mongoose).

PS: Though Setting Sun is excellent too, as is Shadow Hand.

[MorkaisChosen]

In some cases, Greater Insightful Strike is better than Diamond Nightmare Blade. It all depends on how much damage your weapon does- DNB is best if you're using something that does quite a bit of damage (Bastard Sword damage times four is quite nasty...) but if you're using something smaller, Greater Insightful wins (D20+Con+level+3 multiplied by two...).

[Eldariel]

But you still lose out on the big cheese. Because honestly, we ALL know the real deal lies in Diamond Mind (With things like Diamond Nightmare Blade, colloquially known as "If I do not TWF, this is my I Win", or Avalanche of blades, which gets to truly devastating levels if you find a way to swiftcast Wraithstrike, and the awe inspiring stance of alacrity) and Tiger Claw (Which has what might be the best Swordsage maneuver, Swooping Dragon strike, not to mention tasty boosts like Raging Mongoose).

PS: Though Setting Sun is excellent too, as is Shadow Hand.

Sigh, you lose out on a few nice maneuvers and get a few others. Whoopedoo. I've built a bunch of adepts that use no save-inducing maneuvers whatsoever and I haven't missed them any. It's just not important; there're so many good maneuvers that you're fine regardless of which stat you focus on. The morale of the story is: Focus on one stat!

With that out of the way, we get back to the fundamental truth of the martial adepts: There're many sufficiently optimal ways to go! ToB is a great book, because it has very little trash in it. Regardless of your choices, you'll be fine. Just don't induce MAD when you can't afford it and don't be entirely single-dimensional and you pretty much can't screw it up.


Str can be used for save-inducing maneuvers and basic attacks, along with Trips (Setting Sun throws, and some opposed checks).

Dex can be used for damage and trips (Setting Sun throws, and some opposed checks)), but adds to AC.

Wis can be used for to hit, and damage on Strikes, along with save-inducing maneuvers, and adds to AC.


Even if you had everything based on Int though, you could still get mileage out of the book, since stat-derived strikes aren't the only way it gives you to attack.

[Blue Paladin]

But you still lose out on the big cheese. Because honestly, we ALL know the real deal lies in Diamond Mind (With things like Diamond Nightmare Blade, colloquially known as "If I do not TWF, this is my I Win", or Avalanche of blades, which gets to truly devastating levels if you find a way to swiftcast Wraithstrike, and the awe inspiring stance of alacrity) and Tiger Claw (Which has what might be the best Swordsage maneuver, Swooping Dragon strike, not to mention tasty boosts like Raging Mongoose).

Lose out on the big cheese?

Greater Insightful Strike, Moment of Alacrity, Ballista Throw, Crushing Vice, Rabid Bear Strike, Wolf Climbs the Mountain - no save
Scorpion Parry - opposed attack roll

Inferno Blade, Avalanche of Blades, Hydra Slaying Strike, Shadow Blink, Ancient Mountain Hammer - no save
Swooping Dragon Strike - Jump-based Fort save (tangentially Str-related, but it's far easier to boost Jump directly [e.g. +10' movement = +4 save DC])

Diamond Nightmare Blade, One With Shadow, Raging Mongoose, Girallon Windmill Flesh Rip - no save
Fool's Strike - opposed attack roll
Enervating Shadow Strike - Wis-based Fort save

Time Stands Still, Tornado Throw, Mountain Tombstone Strike - no save
Inferno Blast - Ref save (based on other DesWind, assume Wis-based)
Five Shadow CIESS - Wis-based Fort save
Feral Death Blow - Str-based Fort save

So that's four stat-based save maneuvers out of twenty-five of the better maneuvers. And that's just my opinion of what "better" means (and some of those are right on the border of being merely "okay"... like Scorpion Parry and Inferno Blast).

I think it better to say that Swordsage maneuvers are awesome in spite of some of them allowing a save.

Back to the OP. Keep in mind that as a Shadow Sun Ninja, your PrC limits you to Shadow Hand (Wisdom governs the saves here) and Setting Sun (most don't have saves, but the ones that do are Strength with one Dex-based). Once you're done with SSN you can do whatever else you want.

[Eldariel]

Back to the OP. Keep in mind that as a Shadow Sun Ninja, your PrC limits you to Shadow Hand (Wisdom governs the saves here) and Setting Sun (most don't have saves, but the ones that do are Strength with one Dex-based). Once you're done with SSN you can do whatever else you want.

To quote myself:

Note that judicious dips in Swordsage between SSN levels will give you an access to higher level non-Setting Sun/Shadow Hand-maneuvers.

Also, the primary advantage of Str over Wis save-wise is that you can target characters' weak Will-saves through Str (Diamond Mind attacks Will), but not Wis. Still, that just means you use non-save maneuvers against high Fort/Ref characters if you don't have maxed Str.

[Skylord414]

Though tempting to get levels in the Master of Nine PrC, the entry requirements are pretty steep, so i think i'll give that a miss and mainly focus on shadow hand maneuvers and stances, especially with my 3 class limit. Obviously Monk and Swordsage are the 2 best classes to get levels in. Any suggestions on how i should lay it out in order to best the most high level maneuvers as possible?