Help with spells

[kentma57]

I am playing a Eleven Rogue 2 Sorcerer 6, due to the wording of the sorcerer spell selection I can take from any spell list. So I have picked most of my spells but I still need to pick my one(and only) 3rd level spell. What is the best spell I could pick?

ps: I have core, spell compendium and a bunch of others. So any spell can work.

EDIT: forgot to say it is a party of two 8th level characters, I currently am the skill monkey, a sorcerer, and a healer(Yey cleric and paladin spell lists)

[valadil]

What wording lets you get spells from any list? Here's what the SRD says on sorcerer spell selection.

A sorcerer casts arcane spells which are drawn primarily from the sorcerer/wizard spell list.

I'd go with one of the following spells: stinking cloud, slow, haste, or dispel magic. They're all solid choices.

[its_all_ogre]

the word primarily i think.
many people assume they can choose any spells, despite the fact the list is called sorcerer/wizard.

if of course you could take spells from any list you wanted they would never need a sorcerer spell list? but apparently this would be too obvious and people read rules the way that most benefits them....
i would advise haste as a spell that is useful in and out of combat.
(without cheating)

[Cuddly]

Oh you luck son of a....

Do you have Dungeonscape? Look at the Trapsmith PrC. You get Dimension Door as a second level spell (neato!), Dispel Magic as a first level spell, Greater Dispel Magic as a third level spell. Pretty neat.

Here's what I recommend:
Look up Solo's guide to sorcerers, or The Logic Ninja's Being Batman guide (a google search should find both of them). They have good pointers for spell selection. Then find those spells on other class lists at a lower level than normal.

I also recommend dropping the two rogue levels in favor of more sorc levels. With only two levels of rogue, you aren't going to be skillmoney-ing very well, since the DCs of many tasks may scale non-linearly, and in general, casting is better than skills. But this isn't necessary. Just realize that you will likely be better off using those skills you trained in to aid the group's real skill monkey. Don't be disappointed if you end up playing second fiddle.

I also recommend you go with the alternative class feature from PHBII that lets your sorc use metamagic without taking a full round to do it.

Then get heighten spell and, if you have Races of Stone, get Earth Spell. Earth Spell makes any spell you heighten 1 level higher than it actually is. So if you heighten grease to take up a third level spell slot, it gets cast as a 4th level spell AND it gets +3 to its caster level. This is very helpful for sorc's because a limited spell selection isn't as big a deal.

Look for spells that don't allow spell resistance, or saves, or both. There's a seventh level druid spell, for instance, called Swamp Lung. It forces a fort save (no SR). A failed save means the poor victim has lungs full of swamp water and must spend the next 1d6 rounds helpless.

[Kurald Galain]

If allowed, re-train to Rogue 1 / Sorcerer 4 / Unseen Seer. That allows you to boost both caster levels and sneak attack.

[Swooper]

the word primarily i think.

It's still pretty clear that sorcerers cast arcane spells only, and therefore, even with the liberal reading of that line, are 'restricted' to sor/wiz, bard and assassin spell lists, assuming PHB only. Clerics, paladins, rangers and druids cast divine spells, so you can't use their lists.

It is, however a pretty dumb reading of the rules in my not so humble opinion

[Jack_Simth]

What wording lets you get spells from any list? Here's what the SRD says on sorcerer spell selection.

"Primarily"
You listed the Sorcerer's wording (or at least, the first part of it). Now lets take a look at the other Core spellcasters:
Bard: "A bard casts arcane spells, which are drawn from the bard spell list."
Cleric: "A cleric casts divine spells, which are drawn from the cleric spell list. "
Druid: "A druid casts divine spells, which are drawn from the druid spell list. "
Paladin: "Beginning at 4th level, a paladin gains the ability to cast a small number of divine spells, which are drawn from the paladin spell list. "
Ranger: "Beginning at 4th level, a ranger gains the ability to cast a small number of divine spells, which are drawn from the ranger spell list."
Wizard: "A wizard casts arcane spells which are drawn from the sorcerer/ wizard spell list."

None of the other Core casters include that word: "Primarily". The sorcerer does.

Additionally, the sorcerer spellcasting section includes a later clause not included in the other caster's write-up: "... or they can be unusual spells that the sorcerer has gained some understanding of by study."

If you pull up the Magic Overview section in the PHB, for adding spells, for the Wizard (pages 178, 179) it's spells gained at new level, copied from a spellbook or scroll, or independent research. For the Divine spells, it's Spells Gained at new level or Independent research (180). The Sorcerer and Bard (179) have different wording:

Adding Spells to a Sorcerer's or Bard's Repertoire: A sorcerer or bard gains spells each time he attains a new level in his class and never gains spells any other way. When your sorcerer or bard gains a new level, consult Table 3-5: Bard Spells Known or Table 3-17: Sorcerer Spells KNown to learn how many spells from the appropriate spell list in Chapter 11: Spells he now knows. With the DM's permission, sorcerers and bards can also select the new spells they gain from new and unusual spells that they have gained some understanding of (see Spells in the sorcerer description, page 54).
For instance, when Hennet the sorcerer becomes 2nd level, he gains an additional 0-level spell. He can pick that spell from the 0-level spells on the sorcerer and wizard spell list, or he might have learned an unusual spell from an arcane scroll or spellbook.

(Bold original, underline added) ... and the Sorcerer/Bard section does not reference independent research, unlike the Wizard or the Divine caster sections in that chapter.

Now, it lists no mechanics for going outside the Sor/Wiz list, but by RAW, a Sorcerer is not limited to just his class spell list - and he doesn't need proper spell research to do it.

[Cuddly]

You guys should start another thread if you want to discuss whether or not a sorcerer has to take his spells from the sorc/wiz list by RAW.

[Xuincherguixe]

Supposedly, that poorly written line was meant for spells in other rule books.

Sorcerers can only cast the same spells as a Wizard can.

Fortunately, that's an awesome list.


But, being that it's a poorly written line, you might be able to pull it off anyways.

[kentma57]

Supposedly, that poorly written line was meant for spells in other rule books.

Sorcerers can only cast the same spells as a Wizard can.

Fortunately, that's an awesome list.


But, being that it's a poorly written line, you might be able to pull it off anyways.

It was my DM's suggestion (probably because it is a party of two) and I will probably drop the levels of rogue.(my hit points will go down but I get more spells) I guess are party will have to survive without trapfinding.(the other character is a shadowcaster)

[Cuddly]

Have you ever looked at the gestalt rules? It works well with small parties, since you can fill multiple rolls.

[Xuincherguixe]

It was my DM's suggestion (probably because it is a party of two) and I will probably drop the levels of rogue.(my hit points will go down but I get more spells) I guess are party will have to survive without trapfinding.(the other character is a shadowcaster)

Oh. Well that makes things a bit different. That being said, Wizard spells are generally better.


You might want to try a gestalt game, if there's only two of you.

Sorcerer/Cleric is probably going to work better than a Sorcerer exploiting bad writing.

(One of the Spontaneous Divine Casters like Favored Soul is probably going to be better mind you)

edit: I wonder how a Warlock/Ninja would work.

[kentma57]

Don't worry we can manage(I tallked the DM into giving us an extra level; CR 7 campaign, 2 ECL 8 characters)

[Jack_Simth]

You guys should start another thread if you want to discuss whether or not a sorcerer has to take his spells from the sorc/wiz list by RAW.

Did, a while back. Short answer is that they aren't restricted to the Sor/Wiz list, but the lack of mechanics for what "some understanding" means makes people nervous and unwilling to trust it.

Besides, in most cases, the Sor/Wiz list is stronger than the Cleric/Druid list anyway.

[kentma57]

Did, a while back. Short answer is that they aren't restricted to the Sor/Wiz list, but the lack of mechanics for what "some understanding" means makes people nervous and unwilling to trust it.

Besides, in most cases, the Sor/Wiz list is stronger than the Cleric/Druid list anyway.

Lesser Restoration as a 1st level spell (Yey paladins)