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2008-05-25, 07:18 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Muncie, Indiana
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Combat Expertise and Fighting Defensively
I found the answer I wanted.
Last edited by ocato; 2008-05-25 at 07:24 PM.
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Avatar by Kalirush
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2008-05-25, 08:19 PM (ISO 8601)
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- May 2007
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- The Land of Cleves
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Re: Combat Expertise and Fighting Defensively
In case anyone else is wondering, your question was probably whether they stack, and the answer you found was probably "yes". What's interesting is that you can actually get better defense by poking feebly at an enemy once per round this way than you can via the Total Defense action.
Time travels in divers paces with divers persons.
As You Like It, III:ii:328
Chronos's Unalliterative Skillmonkey Guide
Current Homebrew: 5th edition psionics
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2008-05-25, 08:40 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Apr 2006
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- Virginia
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Re: Combat Expertise and Fighting Defensively
one of my fencer friends says their philosophy is probably that total defense basically means you're letting your opponent control the flow combat and you're not in control of the pace, which, in the hands of an expert can be different.
but who knows.
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2008-05-25, 08:43 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Feb 2006
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- New York, USA
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Re: Combat Expertise and Fighting Defensively
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2008-05-25, 10:10 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Apr 2006
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- Virginia
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Re: Combat Expertise and Fighting Defensively
I can see how that would make sense as the same theory applies to fighting games as well.
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2008-05-25, 10:33 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2007
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- Soviet Canuckistan
Re: Combat Expertise and Fighting Defensively
Well, I'll take advantage of the thread then; I seem to recall reading some (feats? abilities?) that mentioned when fighting defensively or taking -2 to hit using Combat Expertise; can anyone recall an example of a feat or ability making reference to taking at least a -2 to hit with Combat Expertise counting as being defensive?
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2008-05-25, 10:48 PM (ISO 8601)
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- May 2007
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- The Land of Cleves
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Re: Combat Expertise and Fighting Defensively
Still, though, the idea of fighting defensively is that you're doing everything possible to make yourself as hard to hit as possible. You'd think that if making an attack made you harder to hit, then fighting defensively would already include that.
Time travels in divers paces with divers persons.
As You Like It, III:ii:328
Chronos's Unalliterative Skillmonkey Guide
Current Homebrew: 5th edition psionics
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2008-05-26, 12:42 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jan 2008
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- At R'Lyeah, waiting.....
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Re: Combat Expertise and Fighting Defensively
They do not stack. Both provide a dodge bonus.
Prerequisite
Int 13.
Benefit
When you use the attack action or the full attack action in melee, you can take a penalty of as much as -5 on your attack roll and add the same number (+5 or less) as a dodge bonus to your Armor Class. This number may not exceed your base attack bonus. The changes to attack rolls and Armor Class last until your next action.
Normal
A character without the Combat Expertise feat can fight defensively while using the attack or full attack action to take a -4 penalty on attack rolls and gain a +2 dodge bonus to Armor Class.
Special
A fighter may select Combat Expertise as one of his fighter bonus feats.The Necroswanson's Deviantart.
Freemanatar by Phase, thank you ever so much.
Remember kids, Vortigaunts say, "The Free Man is not a number."
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2008-05-26, 12:58 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2006
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- Look behind you...
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Re: Combat Expertise and Fighting Defensively
Dodge bonuses stack, you know.
RAR!
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2008-05-26, 12:58 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Aug 2007
Re: Combat Expertise and Fighting Defensively
And per the SRD, Dodge bonuses, like circumstance bonuses, stack:
Stacking
In most cases, modifiers to a given check or roll stack (combine for a cumulative effect) if they come from different sources and have different types (or no type at all), but do not stack if they have the same type or come from the same source (such as the same spell cast twice in succession). If the modifiers to a particular roll do not stack, only the best bonus and worst penalty applies. Dodge bonuses and circumstance bonuses however, do stack with one another unless otherwise specified.
Fighting Defensively as a Standard Action: You can choose to fight defensively when attacking. If you do so, you take a -4 penalty on all attacks in a round to gain a +2 Dodge bonus to AC for the same round. This bonus stacks with the AC bonus granted by the Combat Expertise feat (page 92)
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2008-05-26, 01:00 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2007
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- Finland
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Re: Combat Expertise and Fighting Defensively
Here's the relevant part:
-All bonuses, except for unnamed bonuses from different sources and dodge bonuses, overlap.
Here's the relevant part from the SRD:
Originally Posted by SRD
So yes, you can do both, and yes they stack, and yes, a character with high Tumble-score, Improved Combat Expertise, high BAB and Elaborate Parry can get totally ridiculous AC (and Touch AC) when truly fighting defensively (he can use them to grant 24 points of Dodge-bonus with just the feats and 15 ranks in Tumble (as per Oriental Adventures Extreme Tumbling); add to that Elaborate Parry with 10 Duelist-levels and it's +34; even Dervish gets +28, and has the advantage of not overall sucking at everything else like Duelist (and supporting TWF which is the only smart way to fight when both fighters only hit with 20s)).Last edited by Eldariel; 2008-05-26 at 01:03 AM.
Campaign Journal: Uncovering the Lost World - A Player's Diary in Low-Magic D&D (Latest Update: 8.3.2014)
Being Bane: A Guide to Barbarians Cracking Small Men - Ever Been Angry?! Then this is for you!
SRD Averages - An aggregation of all the key stats of all the monster entries on SRD arranged by CR.
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2008-05-26, 01:05 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Dec 2006
- Location
- Look behind you...
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Re: Combat Expertise and Fighting Defensively
Don't forget the Defending weapons. I prefer a Defending Necklace of Natural Attacks + Superior Magic Fang (or just an enchanted necklace), since it doesnt cost feats and also gives a whole crapload of AC.
RAR!
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2008-05-26, 01:10 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Feb 2008
- Location
- In the shadows
- Gender
Re: Combat Expertise and Fighting Defensively
damn Ninja'd:
Dodge Bonuses: Some other AC bonuses represent actively avoiding blows. These bonuses are called dodge bonuses. Any situation that denies you your Dexterity bonus also denies you dodge bonuses. (Wearing armor, however, does not limit these bonuses the way it limits a Dexterity bonus to AC.) Unlike most sorts of bonuses, dodge bonuses stack with each other.
the SRD says this on Fighting defensively:
as a full round:
Fighting Defensively as a Full-Round Action: You can choose to fight defensively when taking a full attack action. If you do so, you take a 4 penalty on all attacks in a round to gain a +2 dodge bonus to AC for the same round.
Fighting Defensively as a Standard Action: You can choose to fight defensively when attacking. If you do so, you take a 4 penalty on all attacks in a round to gain a +2 dodge bonus to AC for the same round.
Edit:wait how come that part about them stacking is not in the SRD?Last edited by quiet1mi; 2008-05-26 at 01:11 AM.
SpoilerA Fighter/Paladin will just hack you to bits
A Wizard/Sorcerer will just blow you up with a spell
A Rogue/Ranger/Monk will just kill you in your sleep
A Cleric/Druid will just squash you after buffing himself
A Bard will slowly twist your ethics, corrupt your morals, and make you do vile acts just for the chance to face him. When you fight him, he will have your family and friends fighting for him. For he wields the deadliest weapon against you and that is, his word against yours.
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2008-05-26, 01:16 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Dec 2007
- Location
- Finland
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Re: Combat Expertise and Fighting Defensively
Campaign Journal: Uncovering the Lost World - A Player's Diary in Low-Magic D&D (Latest Update: 8.3.2014)
Being Bane: A Guide to Barbarians Cracking Small Men - Ever Been Angry?! Then this is for you!
SRD Averages - An aggregation of all the key stats of all the monster entries on SRD arranged by CR.
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2008-05-26, 01:30 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Mar 2007
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- Muncie, Indiana
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Re: Combat Expertise and Fighting Defensively
Deadly Defense, Complete Scoundrel. If you take -2 to hit using combat expertise or fight defensively, you add 1d6 to your damage.
And yes, the question was if they stacked. I thought they did, my friend argued and argued it, so I posted. Then I went to double check and found my answer. I apologize.
Oh, and the character the question applied to did very well tonight. People died and he killed them.Being a jerk to people on the internet does not make you cool.
Avatar by Kalirush
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2008-05-26, 01:41 AM (ISO 8601)
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- May 2007
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Re: Combat Expertise and Fighting Defensively
Mind if I ask for some specifics on that character?
I've been thinking of making a defensive sort of character with Combat Expertise and Einhander and such (he's an Aristocrat; long story), and was wondering what can be done with it.People seemed to like this better, but only marginally so - the way one might prefer to be stabbed than shot. Optimally, one isn't stabbed or shot. Optimally, one eats some cake! But there are times when cake is not available, and instead we are destroyed. This is the deep poetry of the universe. -- Tycho Brahe
Spoiler
No-Life King
The Master of Life and Death
Captain of the Damned
Do you have what it takes to face the Uncertainty Lich?
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2008-05-26, 01:55 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Feb 2006
- Location
- Kanagawa, Japan
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Re: Combat Expertise and Fighting Defensively
Just a quick clarification, in 3.0 Defensive Fighting and Combat Expertise do not stack, which is probably where the confusion comes from.
Last edited by Matthew; 2008-05-26 at 01:56 AM.
It is a joyful thing indeed to hold intimate converse with a man after ones own heart, chatting without reserve about things of interest or the fleeting topics of the world; but such, alas, are few and far between.
Yoshida Kenko (1283-1350), Tsurezure-Gusa (1340)
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2008-05-26, 12:06 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Mar 2007
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- Muncie, Indiana
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Re: Combat Expertise and Fighting Defensively
Swashbuckler 3/Fighter 2/Dervish 10
Acrobatic Strike (+4 to attacks if you tumble past an AoO, aka 9 out of 10 times when Dervish dancing)
Deadly Defense (+1d6 damage if you fight defensively or take -2 on Combat Expertise)
Elaborate Parry (Dervish ability that adds +4 AC to fighting defensively, for a total of +7)
And a DM who was expecting a grossly less powerful character. I jumped my base AC 10 points by taking a net -0 on attacks (Acrobatic strike nullifying defensive fighting, +2 expeditious dodge, +1 haste) and buried my enemies under an unending barrage of attacks (boots of speed +TWF/ITWF/GTWF + belt of battle and/or Thousand Cuts) with my flaming keen scimitars (3d6+20/3d6+17 1d6 scim +1d6 fire +1d6 deadly defense).
I doubt I can ever play the character again, because the players/DM (we rotate out) all know the character well enough to pit us against flying characters or characters who fight in a corner/surrounded by jagged rocks. However, the flavor of a Prince of Persia/Capoeira character who is almost impossible to hit because of his blinding speed and elaborate swordwork was definitely fun to play.Last edited by ocato; 2008-05-26 at 12:12 PM.
Being a jerk to people on the internet does not make you cool.
Avatar by Kalirush
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2008-05-26, 01:39 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Dec 2007
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- Finland
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Re: Combat Expertise and Fighting Defensively
I'm playing a similar Dervish: Fighter 2/Scout 5/Dervish 7 - and with 15 ranks in Tumble, I'm getting +8 with Defensive Fighting and there's always the +5 from Combat Reflexes, allowing me to get a total of +13 AC (in addition to Expeditious Dodge for +2). I'll just point out that with any item that allows permanent Flying of at least Good manoeuvrability, Dervish Dance should be possible no problem (or at least with Air Walk), and you can Tumble across opponent's space so really, only 5'/5'/5' areas prevent dancing. Oh yeah, and Skirmish + Dervish = gold (+3 AC, +4d6 damage every attack, anyone?)
Last edited by Eldariel; 2008-05-26 at 02:05 PM.
Campaign Journal: Uncovering the Lost World - A Player's Diary in Low-Magic D&D (Latest Update: 8.3.2014)
Being Bane: A Guide to Barbarians Cracking Small Men - Ever Been Angry?! Then this is for you!
SRD Averages - An aggregation of all the key stats of all the monster entries on SRD arranged by CR.
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2008-05-26, 03:08 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Oct 2007
- Location
- Soviet Canuckistan
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2008-05-27, 12:36 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jan 2008
- Location
- At R'Lyeah, waiting.....
- Gender
Re: Combat Expertise and Fighting Defensively
The Necroswanson's Deviantart.
Freemanatar by Phase, thank you ever so much.
Remember kids, Vortigaunts say, "The Free Man is not a number."