Minions in 3.5

[Bassikpoet]

I really like the idea of minions as presented in 4e--wading through hordes of enemies that can actually damage you but die instantly to your sword. However, as I started a 3.5 campaign with new players about a month ago, I don't want to throw an entire new game system at them. I want to bring the 4e minions in to replace the 3.5 mooks. Is this as simple as giving a creature 1 hitpoint and keeping everything the same or would something else be needed?

[EvilElitest]

you can have minions in 3E. Just make a generic low level stat, and duplicate it
from
EE

[Mike_G]

you can have minions in 3E. Just make a generic low level stat, and duplicate it
from
EE

Except they won't hit or save except on a 20.

Just giving an Orc 1 HP doesn't make it a good minion for a 7th level party, since it's no threat at all. If your mid level party is going to fight the evil warlord and his bodyguard of Orcs, the 4e minion rules would make the Orcs all 1 HP monsters with a reasonable chance to hit the PC's, save vs the PC's spell DCs and have high enough AC that the PC's didn't hit on a 2.

A bunch of low HD mooks won't have any of these things.

Bump up the BAB, saves and AC of the red shirts so they are on par with the party, but give them 1 HP. Voila, they can do damage, but no bookkeeping, just remove them when they get hit or fail a save.

[EvilElitest]

Except they won't hit or save except on a 20.

Just giving and Orc 1 HP doesn't make it a good minion for a 7th level party, since it's no threat at all. If your mid level party is going to fight the evil warlord and his bodyguard of orcs, the 4e minion rules would make the Orcs all 1 HP mosters with a reasonable chance to hit the PC's, save vs the PC's spell DCs a,d have high enough AC that the PC's didn't hit on a 2.

A bunch of low HD mooks won't have any of these things.

alright then, use some creative use of items, or feats, or make some new classes. Or hell, use some special monsters for the task. THe minion system is one that reminds you of Dynasty warriors, but you can use mass fighters more logically on other editions (even one as broken as 3E)
from
EE

[Crow]

Give them an attack bonus, saves, AC, and damage a little lower than those of the big guys, and say they go down in one hit. You may want to rule that AoE attacks and other spells that allow half-damage on a successful save don't knock them out of the fight if they save.

[Mike_G]

alright then, use some creative use of items, or feats, or make some new classes. Or hell, use some special monsters for the task. THe minion system is one that reminds you of Dynasty warriors, but you can use mass fighters more logically on other editions (even one as broken as 3E)
from
EE

Yeah. Do lots of work for the Stormtroopers. It's toatlly worth it. Plus, the load of free magic items they'll leave behind won't come back to haunt you.

At least you won't be using a different mechanic for NPCs, though.

[EvilElitest]

Yeah. Do lots of work for the Stormtroopers. It's toatlly worth it. Plus, the load of free magic items they'll leave behind won't come back to haunt you.

At least you won't be using a different mechanic for NPCs, though.

at least it will be consistent. it also be less simplistic. using rules well is encourage. 3E will hinder you because the system is designed badly, but it only takes more creativity and your'll fine. Better a clunky game than a shallow one
from
EE

[Bassikpoet]

simplistic is just fine being that my party sat around and beat through an iron wall instead of solving the puzzle right beside it. they like to hit things. they like to watch things die. they dont care whether the mooks are fleshed out characters or not.

Edit: I know this is getting a little bit into homebrewing but... would you consider 4 cr x with 1 hit point = 1 cr x? the average baddy goes down in four hits or so anyways.

[Rutee]

alright then, use some creative use of items, or feats, or make some new classes. Or hell, use some special monsters for the task. THe minion system is one that reminds you of Dynasty warriors, but you can use mass fighters more logically on other editions (even one as broken as 3E)
from
EE

I must be missing something.

You're attempting to buff their attack bonus massively without boosting their HD, right?

Low HD Creatures?

Low Hit Points?

As in, still goes down in one hit anyway?

What's the difference?

[Mike_G]

at least it will be consistent.

Thank God for that.

it also be less simplistic. using rules well is encourage. 3E will hinder you because the system is designed badly, but it only takes more creativity and your'll fine.

OH, right. I'll creatively use the badly designed, hindering system. That's a great idea

Better a clunky game than a shallow one
from

EE

And here we hit our impasse.

I work 60 hours a week, and have a 9 month old son.

I got no time for creatively using clunky.

Simple works fine, so long as it's fun.

[Rebonack]

EE, you understand that you aren't being of any help at all to the topic creator, yes? He has already stated that he likes the minion mechanic in 4.0 and wants to adapt it to 3.X. Your distaste for it is immaterial to this conversation.

Anyway...

That said, the best shot for making minions in 3.X would be to stat up some baddies a level or two below the PCs and then simply reduce their HP to one. The four minions running up as one normal opponent would probably work, though it might be a good idea to run a dummy fight or two to test that out.

Happy hunting to your players 'n I hope your boss encounter is fun for them.

[quiet1mi]

mooks are meant to slow down or waste the players resources (in this case actions) when fighting a threatening opponent.

things to do with mooks in 3.5

• give them a circumstance bonus if the mooks have done extensive training together (like a mercenary's group)
• make the mooks of the Warrior class and not the fighter (this results in a higher base attack bonus due to the cr drop)
• give them masterwork or minor weapon bonuses compared to actual threats
• have the mooks fight intelligently by having them take the Fighting defensive action or total defense.
• have them set up AOOs if the players try to bypass them
• have them use the aid another to boost their chance of hitting the players
• have the threat of the encounter use a ranged attack that hurts the players more as they waste time on the mooks
• when all else fails have them grapple (because everyone is bad at that)...

if you really want to make them life threatening just give them more damage and bonuses to hit. Don't Forget you are the DM,WOTC will not knock down your door if you give them a bonus to hit and more damage for no reason other than to make it so the players can not just ignore them.

[sonofzeal]

Actually, I made this work once before even hearing about the 4e rules for minions. Each mook dies in one hit, but deal damage more like a swarm where personal defences don't matter so much since there's so many everywhere. What I did was to use an online dice roller to toss like 20d20 at once, count up how many beat an arbitrary value (I chose 15), and randomly assign those hits to players based around who's got the most mooks by them, who's got the worst armor, and who can afford to take the hits ('cause I want to scare the PCs, not kill them). If three mooks try to wrestle the fighter to the floor, then I roll 3d20 and take the best for their grapple check - their mod is low, but with all those dice out there it's not hard to beat the PCs on some checks. All this was behind the curtain, of course, and as long as I'm judicious about how I fudge things I can always claim circumstance bonuses, flanking bonuses, Aid Another bonuses, etc. Anyway, the end result was brilliant, with the PCs coming out on top but with a deep and abiding fear of goblins emblazened in their minds.

[quiet1mi]

EE, you understand that you aren't being of any help at all to the topic creator, yes? He has already stated that he likes the minion mechanic in 4.0 and wants to adapt it to 3.X. Your distaste for it is immaterial to this conversation.

Anyway...

That said, the best shot for making minions in 3.X would be to stat up some baddies a level or two below the PCs and then simply reduce their HP to one. The four minions running up as one normal opponent would probably work, though it might be a good idea to run a dummy fight or two to test that out.

Happy hunting to your players 'n I hope your boss encounter is fun for them.

this works too...

[quiet1mi]

Actually, I made this work once before even hearing about the 4e rules for minions. Each mook dies in one hit, but deal damage more like a swarm where personal defences don't matter so much since there's so many everywhere. What I did was to use an online dice roller to toss like 20d20 at once, count up how many beat an arbitrary value (I chose 15), and randomly assign those hits to players based around who's got the most mooks by them, who's got the worst armor, and who can afford to take the hits ('cause I want to scare the PCs, not kill them). If three mooks try to wrestle the fighter to the floor, then I roll 3d20 and take the best for their grapple check - their mod is low, but with all those dice out there it's not hard to beat the PCs on some checks. All this was behind the curtain, of course, and as long as I'm judicious about how I fudge things I can always claim circumstance bonuses, flanking bonuses, Aid Another bonuses, etc. Anyway, the end result was brilliant, with the PCs coming out on top but with a deep and abiding fear of goblins emblazened in their minds.

grrr... i forgot what book the rules for Mobs or monsters are... but basically it is like a swarm except it is treated as level 20 character for hit dice and was like a giant sized monster for the purpose of grappling...it got bonuses to grappling and bull rush and took +50% damage from AOE spells and for every 1 monster worth of hp you deal it gains a negative level... sorry i do not remember what book it was in....

[FoE]

Bassikpoet, keep these in mind when using minions:

1) They go down in one hit. For ease this is expressed as having one hit point, but you shouldn't allow PCs to take down high-level minions with really weak spells or attacks, ie. using Ray of Frost to fell a Level 22 minion. You're going to have to play this by ear, I'm afraid. (It might be easier just not telling the PCs which creatures are minions.)
2) Minions never suffer damage from missed attacks. You can only kill them by hitting them.
3) Minions have an attack bonus appropriate for the level of your party. Their defences should be appropriate for their level as well.
4) They should have all the abilities of other creatures of their type. Undead aren't affected by Sleep, for example.
5) Their damage should be flat rather than rolled. For example, this group of Goblin Minions over here always does four damage with their attacks.
6) Feel free to attach some kind of bonus to Minions working together. Legion Devils get a +2 defence bonus when adjacent to another Legion Devil, for example.

[Jack Zander]

1) They go down in one hit. For ease this is expressed as having one hit point, but you shouldn't allow PCs to take down high-level minions with really weak spells or attacks, ie. using Ray of Frost to fell a Level 22 minion. You're going to have to play this by ear, I'm afraid. (It might be easier just not telling the PCs which creatures are minions.)

You could give them 1 hp per hit die.

[FoE]

You could give them 1 hp per hit die.

But you might still roll really low damage, which would be defeating one of the biggest benefits to using minions: negating some of the bookkeeping, which was annoying when you were just throwing mooks at the party anyways.

[Bassikpoet]

I'm toying with not telling them which ones are minions and which ones arent. For that matter, I may not even tell them that there are 1 hp monsters in the game. This would keep the players in check and I hope prevent them from even trying to take down a monster with a ray of frost. I realize that eventually the party will figure out that some monsters are easier to kill than others but not telling them will make them have to use trial and error.

[xirr2000]

alright then, use some creative use of items, or feats, or make some new classes. Or hell, use some special monsters for the task. THe minion system is one that reminds you of Dynasty warriors, but you can use mass fighters more logically on other editions (even one as broken as 3E)
from
EE

OR....just play 4E? Jeez if you're gonna do that much work........

**Edit** keep in mind also that in 3.5 the 1hp idea isn't so hot as you have spells that always hit, which will always result in minion death from the aforementioned ray of frost or any other spell. In 4e I believe everyone can miss, which makes it at least possible for a guy with 1 hp able to survive a few rounds.

[Devils_Advocate]

Edit: I know this is getting a little bit into homebrewing but... would you consider 4 cr x with 1 hit point = 1 cr x? the average baddy goes down in four hits or so anyways.

4 baddies get more total actions, though. So I'd say 4 CR x with 1 hit point = 2 CR x, roughly.

[Bassikpoet]

just playing with the idea a little bit more.... we only use phb for spells and if my memory serves me right, magic missile is the only spell from phb that always hits. at this point (level 4) magic missile is still viable as an attack option (although no one in the party has access to it, being that the closest thing we have to an arcane caster is a dread necromancer.) however, as the party increases in level and the damage from magic missile fizzles, (the people who value consistency will kill me here but...) couldn't a threshold be put just on magic missile? lets say a single magic missile has to do x damage in order for it to kill the minions. this in effect gives every monster damage reduction equal to x-1 against magic missiles where x is the damage threshold designated for the monster. This threshold would go up in level with the monsters fought.

just an idea.

[xirr2000]

Certainly could do it that way, although then its even more bookkeeping to keep track of, almost sounds like you get to make a nifty little table for you to consult when you face minions. Are you secretly trying to re-invent 1e D&D Sneaky you are......

[Jack Zander]

But you might still roll really low damage, which would be defeating one of the biggest benefits to using minions: negating some of the bookkeeping, which was annoying when you were just throwing mooks at the party anyways.

This minion has 10 hit dice.
He is hit for 6 damage.
He will die the next time someone hits him.

Not a lot of book-keeping there.

[FoE]

This minion has 10 hit dice.
He is hit for 6 damage.
He will die the next time someone hits him.

Not a lot of book-keeping there.

But don't you see, you're still complicating matters. The benefit of minions is that you don't HAVE to roll damage. One hit, pow, they're dead. In your scenario, you're still getting a situation where you have to remember "that Minion third to the left in the front row still has to take another hit to die." And then besides that extra bit of bookkeeping, minor though it may be, you're opening yourself up to your players asking why some Minions go down in one hit and others go down in two.

[Jack Zander]

And then besides that extra bit of bookkeeping, minor though it may be, you're opening yourself up to your players asking why some Minions go down in one hit and others go down in two.

Are your players honestly going to ask why the Fighter fell his foe in one hit when he did 20 damage, but the rogue didn't fell his foe when he did only 8?

Isn't that how everything else in DnD works?

[FoE]

Are your players honestly going to ask why the Fighter fell his foe in one hit when he did 20 damage, but the rogue didn't fell his foe when he did only 8?

Isn't that how everything else in DnD works?

My experience with players is they are evil, sadistic bastards who will do anything and everything in their power to de-rail a gaming session.

But you're right, Jack, that's how most of everything works in DnD. In fact, your suggestion might be the only way you can play Minions in 3.5, since all spells generally hit automatically. I'll concede that.

But since I like beating a dead horse, I will argue the following points:

1) As I said, having one-shot minions is just saving yourself rolling for damage and cutting down on bookkeeping. You can't really argue with that, although your example does allow for relatively little bookkeeping.

2) Although Minions are dangerous, you are able to attack with large groups of them BECAUSE they go down in one shot. If there's a possibility that 2 or 3 ogres in a group of twenty take a couple more shots to kill, you're just extending the battle that much farther.

3) This is kind of a slippery slope. Give Minions hit points and the chance to survive more than one hit, and then your players start complaining why their missed damage isn't adding up as well. And so it goes, until finally you're back to playing 3.5 mooks instead of 4E Minions.

[RukiTanuki]

Better a clunky game than a shallow one

After all, I'm far better off doing my math homework with Vista loaded on an eeePC than by using a 10-key calculator. And that busted van that requires someone get under the hood to start (and stalls at intersections) would serve me much better about town than a bike. And carrier pigeons are vastly superior to email. And Battlecruiser 3000AD was a much more fun game to play than Super Mario Bros.

(Also, in before someone mentions that anything he/she disagrees with is completely equivalent to a videogame he/she doesn't lik.... aw, darnit! I'll get you someday!)

P.S. By my recollection, the Mob template was in DMG2.