Factotum

[Aleron]

I know this class is supposedly incredibly good, but what I want to know is why/how. I'm going to be running a series of games in my group starting this weekend to help split the load for our usual DM, he's just getting burned out, so I'm going to run a game every other week. I sent out a mail to the group giving the basics of what is/isn't allowed in the games, and said that if they wanted to play something not in the books listed(Core books, Unearthed Arcana(All SRD Material) + PHB2 + the Complete books & BoED/BoVD) to ask and I'll let them know. The other DM asked if he could play a Factotum, and after reading on here I'm very warry of allowing this in the game as it seems that the class was made to be broken, and while I doubt he'd do it intentionally, I could easily see this happening.

Am I being paranoid about it or is there a valid reason to "fear" this class.

[Azerian Kelimon]

Nope, the factotum is actually very balanced. It is simply high powered, like ToB. Consider it a pumped up rogue. And the reason it is considered really strong is THIS:

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/frcc/20070606

Which lets it be awesome as much as it wants, pretty much.

And remember, it is FAC-TO-TUM.

[Pyroconstruct]

There are AFAIK only 2 degenerate Factotum builds. The first is Factotum 8/X 12, where the X is something with powerful standard-action abilities, like a martial adept. It relies on using Cunning Surge to get a huge number of actions (you can get something like 40 standard actions at level with Font of Inspiration and a high starting INT) and then blowing its wad like that. If it becomes a problem, limit Factotums to something like no more than 3 standard actions extra.

The second is hazy interpretations of the mimicry ability like "Lol, I can get 10 fighter feats." Just don't be retarded.

[Aleron]

oops...thanks for the spelling, I suck at it if you can't tell. I've just seen multiple people here go on about how...OP they can be and wasn't sure. I need to look at the class a bit better I guess, not just go by the "OMG" reactions.

[Azerian Kelimon]

oops...thanks for the spelling, I suck at it if you can't tell. I've just seen multiple people here go on about how...OP they can be and wasn't sure. I need to look at the class a bit better I guess, not just go by the "OMG" reactions.

To tell the truth, the Factotum WILL seem really strong and b0rked until you see it in action.

But it's not because it IS broken. Rather, it's because it's right in the middle of a power gap.

Look at a Fighter and a Batman Wizard. The Batman wizard is godly, the fighter is a buncha crap. Well, the factotum is right there in the middle, contributiing to the party a lot of things without overshadowing it.

The only truly nasty trick is Iaijutsu focus. Ware if your DM insists on taking that skill.

[Aleron]

Heh, Iaijutsu is one of the house banned rules from before I started with this group, so no worries there. :)

[sonofzeal]

Factotum is possibly my favorite class. I love the flavour, and had actually been working on a similar mechanic when it came out.

As to being broken... yeah, Font of Inspiration is something to watch for. If you allow it, do NOT also allow Flaws; the combination is just too good. And Cunning Surge should only be useable once per turn. Other than that, the class is pretty much ready to roll.

[loopy]

The only truly nasty trick is Iaijutsu focus. Ware if your DM insists on taking that skill.

Mind explaining what that is exactly?

[Eldariel]

Draw a weapon every attack with Quick Draw, getting +9d6 to the roll.

[kamikasei]

Mind explaining what that is exactly?

Iaijutsu Focus is a skill from the 3.0 Oriental Adventures book that let you add bonus damage to an attack with a skill check (meant to represent the "now I will, in one motion, draw my weapon and slice you in half before you can react" style of samurai). Factotums get all skills as class skills. Iaijutsu Focus hasn't been revised or superseded in 3.5. 2 + 2 = delicious cheese.

[sonofzeal]

Mind explaining what that is exactly?

Iaijutsu Focus is a skill that lets you deal bonus damage when drawing a sword, and is only a Class Skill for OA Samurai.... and for Factota since they get all skills. If you just invest ranks in it it's not too unreasonable, but what with the multitude of ways of pumping random skills these days, it's not hard to get massive damage when it triggers. Throw in Quick Draw, or even just strapping on twenty swords, and it quickly becomes ridiculous.

(edit - ninja'd while talking about samurai! Oh the huge manatee!)

[Person_Man]

Mind explaining what that is exactly?

Iaijutsu Focus is a Skill from Oriental Adventures, a 3.0 supplement. Only the 3.0 Samurai and Iaijutsu Master (3.0 OA PrC) have it explicitly listed as a class Skill.

In 3.5, the Factotum and Exemplar list "All Skills" as in-class. Thus, if your DM grandfathers 3.0 material into 3.5 (which by RAW, is the correct ruling), then Factotums have Iaijutsu Focus as a class Skill.

You can abuse it like this.

Anywho, other good options:

Archer: Manyshot + magic bow + magic ammo + Greater Magic Weapon + Cunning Surge.

Action advantage: Cunning Surge, Hustle, Font of Inspiration.

Killer Skill Monkey: UMD, Use Psionic Device, Autohypnosis, Iaijutsu Focus, Tumble, ToB craziness (many Maneuvers are directly linked to Skills).

Wand-craziness: Factotum/Artificer with the various wand feats.

[Aleron]

Archer: Manyshot + magic bow + magic ammo + Greater Magic Weapon + Cunning Surge.

If he want's to play it I think I'll actually allow it, as I'm not including the OA book(thus no Iaijutsu Focus) so it should be ok. I was under the impression that it was more broken based on the class it's self, but I think most of the cheese has been already ruled out to simplify my first game runnign some what

Also, on the quoted above...enchanted Arrows & Enchanted bows don't stack. a +1 Bow and +1 arrow don't a +2 arrow make. It would stack as a +1 Bow and a Flaming Arrow, but like abilities don't stack for double goodness there. :)

[Chronicled]

Also, on the quoted above...enchanted Arrows & Enchanted bows don't stack. a +1 Bow and +1 arrow don't a +2 arrow make. It would stack as a +1 Bow and a Flaming Arrow, but like abilities don't stack for double goodness there. :)

Right, that's why you make the bow and the arrows +1 with lots of different enhancements (so that they stack), then pop a GMW on the bow.

[Aleron]

/palm-head

Assuming you have a +1 Bow, then enchant it with GMW, you now have a +5 Bow(depending on caster lvl), not a +6 bow...

Assuming you have a +1 Bow, and a quiver of +1 Flaming, Shock arrows all your arrows fired will be...wait for it...+1 Flaming Shock Arrows! Enhancement bonuses don't stack, period, end of story. If you had Flaming on the Bow & on the Arrow, would your arrow be a Flaming Flaming arrow and do +2d6 fire damage? Nope, just the normal +1d6 fore damage.

My comment was that if you have a +1 Bow and a quiver of Flaming Arrows, your arrows, once shot, would be +1 Flaming Arrows. See how that works

[Chronos]

So you get, say, a +1 flaming holy wounding collision bow (+7 equivalent), and +1 shocking freezing corrosive seeking thundering arrows (+6 equivalent), and cast Greater Magic Weapon on the bow, for a total bonus equivalent to +16.

Really, the biggest thing to look out for is that you don't have a rogue and a factotum in the same party. The rogue is already in the middle of the power gap between fighter and wizard, contributing meaningfully to a party without overshadowing it. The factotum fills the same role as a rogue, but does a better job at it, so a factotum will overshadow a rogue.

[Toliudar]

Aleron, I think the point is that if you have:

Bow: +1 flaming, holy, blah blah

Arrow: +1 frost, shock, bane, yadda yadda

And you add GMW

You get +5 flaming holy frost shock bane, blah blah yadda yadda. It's not the pluses that you need to worry about. It's the bonus stuff.

Edit: Ninjaed and bettered by Chronos. Go figure.

[Aleron]

If that was the argument then

I recently had someone try to argue with me that you could have a +5 Bow & +5 Arrows and combine them to get a total enhancement value on the shot arrow of +10. Thought I was reliving that argument again

[Aquillion]

Iaijutsu Focus is a skill that lets you deal bonus damage when drawing a sword, and is only a Class Skill for OA Samurai.... and for Factota since they get all skills. If you just invest ranks in it it's not too unreasonable, but what with the multitude of ways of pumping random skills these days, it's not hard to get massive damage when it triggers. Throw in Quick Draw, or even just strapping on twenty swords, and it quickly becomes ridiculous.

Note that iaijutsu focus only gives you bonus damage on flat-footed opponents. While it is cheesy for a Factotum to take it, the skill isn't inherently that great... it's a weaker version of sneak attack, usually. You really have to work at it just to keep even with a rogue's sneak attack.

What makes it broken for the Factotum, though, is that they can basically get it for free (alright, they spend skill points, but they get tons of those.) Given that they're already a fairly high-powered class that is supposed to be balanced primarily by their relatively limited damage output, you can see how given them even a more limited form of sneak attack could be broken.

Also, you can always read the Factotum Handbook, which has lots of information about the most powerful things that can be done with the class.

The second is hazy interpretations of the mimicry ability like "Lol, I can get 10 fighter feats." Just don't be retarded.

Honestly, sad as it is to say, there are probably better things to mimic than 10 fighter feats... especially given that they get that ability at level 19. By that point, just about anything you can accomplish with fighter feats is going to be pretty obsolete anyway.

[Douglas]

I recently had someone try to argue with me that you could have a +5 Bow & +5 Arrows and combine them to get a total enhancement value on the shot arrow of +10. Thought I was reliving that argument again

Back in 3.0, you could. This meant, among other things, that Arcane Archer didn't suck quite so badly back then. Sadly, they removed that bit of stacking in 3.5 but didn't give Arcane Archer anything to compensate for the loss.

[Draz74]

Really, the biggest thing to look out for is that you don't have a rogue and a factotum in the same party. The rogue is already in the middle of the power gap between fighter and wizard, contributing meaningfully to a party without overshadowing it. The factotum fills the same role as a rogue, but does a better job at it, so a factotum will overshadow a rogue.

If the Rogue is trying to be a well-rounded Skill Monkey, yes, he'll get overshadowed.

If the Rogue is based on Sneak Attacking as well as possible -- i.e. he doesn't care about skills, just about stabbing things left and right -- he'll still be able to hold his own in the Factotum's party. As long as Iaijutsu cheese is banned. Helps if Fount of Inspiration is banned, too (and, contrary to popular belief, I think a Factotum without FoI is perfectly feasible in a normal-powered campaign. Less powerful than a Factotum with umpteen FoI's, but more fun too.). Without these cheesy tricks, the Factotum just can't match the well-built rogue in sheer damage output. (The rogue should, as a start, have TWF and the MIC Crystals that let him sneak attack Undead and Constructs.)

[Aleron]

See, but the MIC isn't in for this campaign. :) Didn't want to have to sift through a lot of books to check characters for my first ever session DMing a game. :)

[Darkantra]

While looking for Combat Trapsmith builds I ran across this gem on the wizards boards that uses the Factotum class. Just an illustration of how fun the Factotum can be .

Spoiler

Show

Originally Posted by RadicalTaoist
The Stage Crew
"Pardon me again, but just keep your eyes on the audience and your mind on the fight. Don't mind me setting this tripwire right here. Now, if you'd kindly step a bit to the left - perfect! The crowd's loving it! Sorry about your lungs by the way."

Race: Whisper Gnome (from Races of Stone)
Progression - Feats
Factotum 1 - Font of Inspiration
Factotum 2
Factotum 3 - Fade into Violence (PHB II)
Factotum 4
Factotum 5
Combat Trapsmith 1 - Ability Focus: Combat Trapping
Combat Trapsmith 2
Combat Trapsmith 3
Combat Trapsmith 4 - Shadow Striker (PHB II)
Combat Trapsmith 5
Factotum 6
Factotum 7 - Font of Inspiration
Factotum 8
Factotum 9
Factotum 10 - Font of Inspiration
Factotum 11
Factotum 12
Factotum 13 - Font of Inspiration
Factotum 14
Factotum 15
The Factotum is from Dungeonscape. The Combat Trapsmith is from Complete Scoundrel.

Why it's optimized: Max Int like no one's business, followed by Dex, and you've got a very solid offense in the Combat Trapsmith's traps. By level 10, you're dropping them all with the equivalent saves of 7th level spells. However, what makes the Stage Crew great is his ability to do this out of the way and not bother the show - even when directly in the way.
Both Fade Into Violence and Shadow Striker grant the Stage Crew member abilities that force foes to ignore them if there's an ally of the crewmember available to fight. These abilities depend on not targeting anyone with weapons or spells - and the combat trapping ability of the Combat Trapsmith requires neither!
So, while an incredibly stealthy Whisper Gnome Combat Trapsmith can hide the normal way and litter the battlefield with nasty surprises, this guy can literally do it in front of the enemy's noses after making the right Hide or Bluff checks. This is on top of all the great Factotum stuff you get anyways (note that the Factotum's Arcane Dilettante should get you access to Craft (Alchemy) and thus a lot of the cool traps that require ranks in that skill). In addition, it's a powerful trapscout basis. The Font of Inspiration feats are mostly overkill, though. Feel free to switch them out for others that grant you advantages in the trapscout role - such as Darkstalker to better fool those audiences with blindsense. Whisper Gnome was chosen for the amazing stealth bonuses.

Why it's funny: It's rather silly to imagine a mild-mannered looking gnome setting up a deadly combat trap right at the feet of a skilled combatant who blatantly ignores him in favor of any different foe. Technically, even critters summoned from a Bag of Tricks would get priority over attacking a Stage Crew member if the right skill checks were made. Hell, if a Large was fighting with a Large enemy at reach, the Stage Crew Gnome could literally set up a trap right between them!

[Chronicled]

While looking for Combat Trapsmith builds I ran across this gem on the wizards boards that uses the Factotum class. Just an illustration of how fun the Factotum can be .

Thanks for sharing this, it looks brilliant. I need to find a game to try this out in...

[Roderick_BR]

Mind explaining what that is exactly?

The complement everyone's response: It's a way to give characters an ability similar to sneak-attack, only it works on mostly anything, and doesn't require you to surprise or flank enemies.

[Azerian Kelimon]

See, but the MIC isn't in for this campaign. :) Didn't want to have to sift through a lot of books to check characters for my first ever session DMing a game. :)

Then, if your party has a rogue, take this advice:

Give him penetrating strike.

Really. Do it as a default. It is one of the two reasons Dungeonscape is a dearly loved book (The other one being the class we have been discussing). It makes Rogues useful in-combat, even against enemies they would normally be useless against.

[Aleron]

ROFL AK, I get the picture! :)

[Chronicled]

Then, if your party has a rogue, take this advice:

Give him penetrating strike.

Really. Do it as a default. It is one of the two reasons Dungeonscape is a dearly loved book (The other one being the class we have been discussing). It makes Rogues useful in-combat, even against enemies they would normally be useless against.

Wholehearted agreement.

[Eldariel]

It is one of the two reasons Dungeonscape is a dearly loved book (The other one being the class we have been discussing). It makes Rogues useful in-combat, even against enemies they would normally be useless against.

More like one of the hundred reasons Dungeonscape is a dearly loved book. I mean, all the ACFs are pretty awesome (with the book, you have options as far as trapfinders go (Barbarian, Ranger, Rogue and Factotum all qualify), Fighter gets the awesome Dungeoncrasher, etc.), Factotum is überfun, Trapsmith is great, the dungeon creation tips are actually useful and enhance the atmosphere, and the book helps to make for interesting traps instead of just 'find and rolls'.

It's right between Tome of Battle and Player's Handbook II as my second favourite 3.5 supplement.

[Jack Mann]

Don't be afraid of font of inspiration. Without strong optimization, a factotum can be a fair bit behind without it. They created the feat because they recognized that they didn't start off factotums with enough inspiration. Just don't let your factotum go crazy with the feat.