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  1. - Top - End - #1
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    Default Your opinion of the new Lore boxes? (4e)



    Discuss.
    Last edited by Illiterate Scribe; 2008-05-28 at 01:24 PM.

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    Default Re: Your opinion of the new Lore boxes? (4e)

    I don't think bears work that way. Don't they have, like, lasers or something?

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    Default Re: Your opinion of the new Lore boxes? (4e)

    They missed DC10: Bears tend to perform their ablutions in arboreal areas.

    Google the words they don't know...

    Also, what kind of world has about 75% of people not knowing what a bear is?
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    Default Re: Your opinion of the new Lore boxes? (4e)

    I had expected them to actually contain useful information like the ones found in MM5. These make me sad.

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    Default Re: Your opinion of the new Lore boxes? (4e)

    Quote Originally Posted by MorkaisChosen View Post
    Also, what kind of world has about 75% of people not knowing what a bear is?
    The kind where "big large hairy thing with claws that roars" describes like a bajillion things that live out in the wilderness.

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    Default Re: Your opinion of the new Lore boxes? (4e)

    That made me laugh. If that was used in ral life, I would be able to hit DC 50 Knowledge (Nature) checks by rolling a 1.
    Last edited by Tempest Fennac; 2008-05-28 at 01:41 PM.
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    Default Re: Your opinion of the new Lore boxes? (4e)

    Quote Originally Posted by Tempest Fennac View Post
    That made me laugh. If that was used in ral life, I would be able to hit DC 50 Knowledge (Nature) checks by rolling a 1.
    I don't think you have that much rank. You simply always take a 10!!

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    Default Re: Your opinion of the new Lore boxes? (4e)

    I am basing that claim of the fact that how bear's attack is classed as advanced knowledge. What would you say the DC to identify this creature ( http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2082/...03177b0e0f.jpg ) would be? (I'm guessing that more peole know about bears compared with the number who know much about fennec foxes.)
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    Default Re: Your opinion of the new Lore boxes? (4e)

    Quote Originally Posted by Tempest Fennac View Post
    I am basing that claim of the fact that how bear's attack is classed as advanced knowledge. What would you say the DC to identify this creature ( http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2082/...03177b0e0f.jpg ) would be? (I'm guessing that more peole know about bears compared with the number who know much about fennec foxes.)
    How bears attack? I'm fairly sure that they strangle their enemies with their tentacles, no?

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    Default Re: Your opinion of the new Lore boxes? (4e)

    Quote Originally Posted by Illiterate Scribe View Post
    How bears attack? I'm fairly sure that they strangle their enemies with their tentacles, no?
    That's Warhammer gamers, not bears.

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    Default Re: Your opinion of the new Lore boxes? (4e)

    Really? I thought they tackled them to the ground.

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    Default Re: Your opinion of the new Lore boxes? (4e)

    Is that actually a *genuine* bit of 4E material, or is it just an unintended consequence of the new Lore rules?

    (Of course, the Lore rules were always kinda stupid like that. I always loved the way it was based on Hit Dice: "Hmm, those tiny lizardlike creatures in the nest are Wyrmling White Dragons, but I have no idea what the identical but much larger creature standing protectively over them could be. I can't be expected to know about such powerful beings!")

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    Default Re: Your opinion of the new Lore boxes? (4e)

    Quote Originally Posted by Dan_Hemmens View Post
    Is that actually a *genuine* bit of 4E material, or is it just an unintended consequence of the new Lore rules?

    (Of course, the Lore rules were always kinda stupid like that. I always loved the way it was based on Hit Dice: "Hmm, those tiny lizardlike creatures in the nest are Wyrmling White Dragons, but I have no idea what the identical but much larger creature standing protectively over them could be. I can't be expected to know about such powerful beings!")
    Genuine 4e material. On another forum it's being discussed, since certain materials were obtained.

    May I also introduce you to the very real possibility of a Dire Bear Cleric/Warlord:

    Last edited by Illiterate Scribe; 2008-05-28 at 02:34 PM.

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    Default Re: Your opinion of the new Lore boxes? (4e)

    Quote Originally Posted by Dan_Hemmens View Post
    Is that actually a *genuine* bit of 4E material, or is it just an unintended consequence of the new Lore rules?
    Yes, and it's being blown out of proportion. 15 is an "easy" DC at 1st level, meaning anyone with training in the proper knowledge skill automatically knows it.

    Compare with:
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    Orcus Lore
    A character knows the following information about Orcus
    with a successful Arcana check.

    DC 15: Orcus is known as the Demon Lord of Undeath,
    the Demon Prince of the Undead, and the Blood Lord. He is
    worshiped by undead and living creatures that do not fear
    undeath.

    DC 20: Orcus desires destruction like all demons, but he
    has set his sights higher, aiming at the gods themselves. In
    particular, Orcus hungers for the death of the Raven Queen
    and to usurp her control over death and the souls of the dead.

    DC 25: Orcus rules one of the many layers of the Abyss.
    His realm, Thanatos, is a dark landscape of death shrouded
    by gray clouds and often obscured by fog. Light filters weakly
    through the clouds and mists, illuminating the realm like a
    moonlit night. Dead forests filled with twisted black trees and
    barren moors dominate. Bleak mountains rise feebly into the
    black sky, and cities and villages in ruins crouch in hidden
    places as though fearful. Strewn all over the realm are tombs,
    mausoleums, gravestones, and sarcophagi. They stand on
    rooftops and building eaves like gargoyles, they litter forests
    like boulders left by a glacier, and they jut from moors like the
    masts of sinking ships. Undead abound within the realm, and
    no living thing survives long there.

    DC 30: At the heart of Thanatos stands a vast obsidian
    palace with embedded bones barely visible through the
    semitransparent black stone. This palace, Everlost, straddles
    a yawning chasm whose sheer slopes hold hundreds of tombs
    and burial sites, creating a tiered necropolis below the palace.

    DC 35: Orcus wields an artifact called the Wand of Orcus.
    Legends say that the skull atop the wand once belonged to
    a god of virtue and chivalry who dared challenge Orcus in
    battle. Other legends identify it as the skull of a human hero,
    but if that is true, it has been magically enlarged to its current
    size. In any event, the powerful good that once resided in the
    skull is warped and perverted into the most monstrous evil.

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    Default Re: Your opinion of the new Lore boxes? (4e)

    This is one of those "half empty/half full" things.

    On the one hand, anybody with training in Knowledge: Nature will automatically know that bears live in the woods (and as others have pointed out, presumably do other things there as well). On the other hand, that means that anybody who *doesn't* have training *won't* know that (or at least, might not).

    This winds up having the same sort of problems as That Alexandrian Article: it's not enough to look at what training you need to know where bears live, it's also a question of what *else* that training would allow you to do. Presumably being trained in Knowledge: Nature makes you the equivalent of a Druid or something, which makes "bears live in the woods" a great secret of the natural world. Not a *closely guarded* secret, but a secret never the less.

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    Default Re: Your opinion of the new Lore boxes? (4e)

    Quote Originally Posted by Dan_Hemmens View Post
    Presumably being trained in Knowledge: Nature makes you the equivalent of a Druid or something, which makes "bears live in the woods" a great secret of the natural world.
    Or a woodsman, or ranger, or naturalist, or traveler...

    Your general point is sound, however, applying it to DCs this low - apparently, 15 is considered an easy check that anyone can make - doesn't quite hold up.

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    Default Re: Your opinion of the new Lore boxes? (4e)

    In theory, I think it's a good addition to MM's. I know I always had some trouble figuring out exactly how much information a given knowledge check gave a player about what they were facing.

    I haven't seen the rulebooks yet though, so as far as execution goes I have to stay mostly silent.

    @Dan: It just means that a quarter of the untrained population or so would be familiar with where bears live. That may not be so out there depending upon the setting. Remember that we live in a age of easy access to 'common knowledge'. I'd bet that if you asked an african tribesman about bears 200 years ago he wouldn't have the slightest idea what you were talking about, let alone where they lived, becaue bears don't live anywhere near him and information didn't travel fast. In a world where bears would most certianly not be a top predator, and would probably be more rare as a result, it's not that insane to say most of the population wouldn't really know anything meaningful about them.
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    Default Re: Your opinion of the new Lore boxes? (4e)

    Quote Originally Posted by kamikasei View Post
    Or a woodsman, or ranger, or naturalist, or traveler...

    Your general point is sound, however, applying it to DCs this low - apparently, 15 is considered an easy check that anyone can make - doesn't quite hold up.
    That's the thing, I think DCs this low are *exactly* where it holds up. It's low enough that it's no problem for trained professionals but high enough that it's a problem for everybody else.

    It's given something of an ironic twist by the fact that, in the real world "do bears **** in the woods?" is a common idiom meaning "yes, of course". In D&D world, however, the saying would be "Do bears **** in the woods? What, do I look like some kind of bear expert? Go ask a ranger."

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    Default Re: Your opinion of the new Lore boxes? (4e)

    Quote Originally Posted by AKA_Bait View Post
    @Dan: It just means that a quarter of the untrained population or so would be familiar with where bears live. That may not be so out there depending upon the setting. Remember that we live in a age of easy access to 'common knowledge'. I'd bet that if you asked an african tribesman about bears 200 years ago he wouldn't have the slightest idea what you were talking about, let alone where they lived, becaue bears don't live anywhere near him and information didn't travel fast. In a world where bears would most certianly not be a top predator, and would probably be more rare as a result, it's not that insane to say most of the population wouldn't really know anything meaningful about them.
    The problem is it *doesn't* mean that. It means that any *given* untrained person has a 25% chance of knowing where bears live. A man who lives in a desert and has never seen a wood in his life never the less has a 25% chance of knowing that bears live in them, a man who lives in a wood full of bears has a 75% chance of *not* knowing.

    I'm not saying it's game breakingly unrealistic, or even problematically unrealistic, just that it's silly.

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    Default Re: Your opinion of the new Lore boxes? (4e)

    I found this on another site...

    Monster Knowledge: No action requiredóeither you
    know the answer or you donít.
    ✦ DC: See the table.
    ✦ Success: You identify a creature as well as its type,
    typical temperament, and keywords. Higher results
    give you information about the creatureís powers,
    resistances, and vulnerabilities.
    ✦ Failure: You donít recall any pertinent information.

    The DM might allow you to make a new check if
    further information comes to light.
    Monster Knowledge DC
    Name, type, and keywords 15
    Powers 20
    Resistances and vulnerabilities 25
    Paragon tier creature +5
    Epic tier creature +10

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    Default Re: Your opinion of the new Lore boxes? (4e)

    Powers - mauling with claws. Yep, liking it.

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    Default Re: Your opinion of the new Lore boxes? (4e)

    Quote Originally Posted by Dan_Hemmens View Post
    The problem is it *doesn't* mean that. It means that any *given* untrained person has a 25% chance of knowing where bears live. A man who lives in a desert and has never seen a wood in his life never the less has a 25% chance of knowing that bears live in them, a man who lives in a wood full of bears has a 75% chance of *not* knowing.

    I'm not saying it's game breakingly unrealistic, or even problematically unrealistic, just that it's silly.
    Personally, I'd give a circumstance bonus. If somebody sees bears everyday, that's easily a +6 to the check, and if someone has never seen a bear in their life, it's at least a -4.

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    Default Re: Your opinion of the new Lore boxes? (4e)

    Quote Originally Posted by Zocelot View Post
    Personally, I'd give a circumstance bonus. If somebody sees bears everyday, that's easily a +6 to the check, and if someone has never seen a bear in their life, it's at least a -4.
    makes sense why would someone from <insert name of bearless place> have the same chance to know about bears than someone who lived in a small town with many bears near it
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    Default Re: Your opinion of the new Lore boxes? (4e)

    Quote Originally Posted by Illiterate Scribe's Picture View Post
    "Even in a world filled with monsters, bears present a threat..."
    Hell yeah they do. Bears are THE GREATEST THREAT.

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    Default Re: Your opinion of the new Lore boxes? (4e)

    Quote Originally Posted by Zocelot View Post
    Personally, I'd give a circumstance bonus. If somebody sees bears everyday, that's easily a +6 to the check, and if someone has never seen a bear in their life, it's at least a -4.
    If somebody sees bears every day, or has been told about bears, they don't actually need to make that roll - any more than a PC who's been told about bears needs to.

    That said, making that roll seems pretty useless, since it tells the players nothing they do not already know. Most pointless lore ever.

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    Default Re: Your opinion of the new Lore boxes? (4e)

    I'm sad that animals still have ridiculously low Int for some reason. I agree that the old HD-based system was ridiculous in some cases, but it makes more sense then this system if the bear knowledge is any indication of what the others are like.
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    Default Re: Your opinion of the new Lore boxes? (4e)

    Quote Originally Posted by Tempest Fennac View Post
    What would you say the DC to identify this creature ( http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2082/...03177b0e0f.jpg ) would be?
    Wait a second...Momos actually exist?! Damn...

    Anyway, remember that adventurers don't get a modern day education.

    For instance, I've never seen a bear, nor do I live in an area where bears come even close to. If I'd never gone to school, and if I didn't have TV, and if my parents hadn't both gone to school so they could tell me about it, and if my friends hadn't gone to school so they could tell me about it, then I wouldn't know what a bear was. There would be no way for me to know.

    And even if the character has grown up around a place with regular bear traffic or has actually met and/or studied a bear, then a knowledge check isn't even required.

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    Default Re: Your opinion of the new Lore boxes? (4e)

    Quote Originally Posted by Illiterate Scribe View Post


    Discuss.
    Please tell me that's either an idiot-proofed example, or a parodic mock-up. Coz if it's anything else then the sheer mouth-breathing lameness of it is palpable.

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    Default Re: Your opinion of the new Lore boxes? (4e)

    It is real - a certain malevolent board got their hands on the MM, and were tearing through it.

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    Default Re: Your opinion of the new Lore boxes? (4e)

    Maybe common knowledge (DC 10) is not listed because it's not needed? Like, why the heck are you even rolling to know if you recognise a bear, or to know they live in florests/caves/whatever?
    Now, more specializaed info may require a roll (you know where a bear lives, but do you know how he hunts? Roll arcana, DC 15).
    It's like the old "roll a sports check to see if you can run" joke on GURPS...

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