Gr... Star Wars issues...

[Lycan 01]

Okay, so I'm having a few issues with the Star Wars d20 game. The thing is, its not the game itself, par se, but the players.

Here's the deal.

I want to play a d20 game. Star Wars seems like the best bet. I just have 2 problems...

Problem 1: Price. Its 35-40 bucks for the Core rulebook, depending on where I go. I'm not very wealthy at the moment. I only have about 50 bucks of spending money right now. So, Core book, plus the dice, would cause me to break about even. I dunno if I want to spend all that, especially since a few players may drop out on me once I actually get the game.

One friend suggested I just make my own game. While this idea does interest me, I'm unsure of how it would be to my advantage. I'm saving money, true. But I'd have to invest a lot of time and effort into making a system from scratch. This isn't much of a problem, since I already did so with a Spells 'n Swords gametype (just gotta finish the enemies and PC creation, and it'll be ready...) and I'd probably enjoy Homebrewing a Star Wars RPG. But, once again, I dunno if I want to waste resources when the players may drop out.


Problem 2: Players. I have a lot of people interested in the game. But that's the thing. They're interested, but not fully signed on to play. I have at least 4 people who will play with me, no questions asked. But there's 2 guys who are interested, but will only play under certain conditions.

One of them will only play if "you can be a Yoda!" in the game. I believe the species is called a Will... So, would there be any way for him to play as one? Although, he was probably joking, and will play anyway...

The other one is a bit iffy. I told him the game uses the same system as Knights of the Old Republic (Kotor uses the D20 system from the SW RPG, IIRC...), and he was fully interested. Then he found out 2 things, and essentially dropped out entirely. He discovered that the game is not set in the KOTOR timeline, which is the only SW setting he likes. And he discovered that the game involves dice, and he doesn't want to play anything along the lines of DnD... He did, however, say that he'd play if I made a Homebrew game that involved less dice and stats, and more Roleplaying. (Which, if I did a Homebrew, would be the case...)



So, my questions are:

(1) Which would be a better idea and/or investment? Purchasing the Core book and trying to learn the system, or working to invent a Homebrew Star Wars RPG and creating the system?

(2) How can I persuade the two guys to play?




Edit: Interesting note - I have a lot of time on my hands, so Homebrewing would only take a few days or a week or so. But I could also learn the real system in the same amount of time, if not faster...

[Azerian Kelimon]

1) Getting Saga. It's an excellent system.

2) Just snatch the Will stats from the web and play an opening adventure/campaign in the KOTOR period. Not that hard.

[Mauril Everleaf]

The other one is a bit iffy. I told him the game uses the same system as Knights of the Old Republic (Kotor uses the D20 system from the SW RPG, IIRC...), and he was fully interested. Then he found out 2 things, and essentially dropped out entirely. He discovered that the game is not set in the KOTOR timeline, which is the only SW setting he likes. And he discovered that the game involves dice, and he doesn't want to play anything along the lines of DnD... He did, however, say that he'd play if I made a Homebrew game that involved less dice and stats, and more Roleplaying. (Which, if I did a Homebrew, would be the case...)

Not set in the KotOR era? I am marginally involved in a SW:SE game which is set about a month after KotOR. Heck, some of the NPCs from KotOR are in our campaign. The cool thing about Star Wars is that the tech changes very little in a couple thousand years. They are still using lightsabers, blasters and hyperdrive systems. You may just need to exclude some stuff from your PCs, but GMs generally always do so (or at least have the right to do so).

[Lycan 01]

Oooooh, so does the book explain how to set stuff up from Kotor? Or does it all work just the same, albiet in a different time zone?

Well, heck. I need to make a phone call...


Edit: But still, which would I be best off with? Book, or Homebrew?


2nd edit: Funny thing is, the 2 guys in question played (and amazingly, beat) Arkham Horror with me the other night. I've sewn the seeds, now they just have to sprout...

[Azerian Kelimon]

Buy the book, really. Trust me, if you do not WANT to do the homebrew on your own terms, then it's going to be a bunch of crap.

And no, it doesn't tell you, but there's really nothing different. Just adjust the era and it's done.

[Lycan 01]

Does the normal D20 game allow for much Roleplaying? That's what I enjoy the most. Just getting into character and interacting with the Star Wars world... Does normal game restrict or encourage excesive RPing?

[Azerian Kelimon]

Does the normal D20 game allow for much Roleplaying? That's what I enjoy the most. Just getting into character and interacting with the Star Wars world... Does normal game restrict or encourage excesive RPing?

Only truly horrible games force you into roleplaying something. Just take a look at the book. You'll find out that FATAL and RaHoWa are about the only games out there that coerce you into a style of roleplay.

[Thiel]

The D20 system allows for just about as much role-playing as you want it to. While it does involve a lot of numbers, it doesn't excludes role-playing in the least. After all, the meat and bones of most role-playing happens between the fights.

[Lycan 01]

Only truly horrible games force you into roleplaying something. Just take a look at the book. You'll find out that FATAL and RaHoWa are about the only games out there that coerce you into a style of roleplay.

Me and my friends just enjoy roleplaying...

For example, in combat, can the Host explain and describe the attacks made and the wounds received? Like, lets say somebody uses a blaster, and kills an enemy. Can the Host describe the awesome headshot he made, just to add more substance to the game? That's what my friends would all enjoy, probably...

[Hurlbut]

Me and my friends just enjoy roleplaying...

For example, in combat, can the Host explain and describe the attacks made and the wounds received? Like, lets say somebody uses a blaster, and kills an enemy. Can the Host describe the awesome headshot he made, just to add more substance to the game? That's what my friends would all enjoy, probably...

There's absolutely nothing in any book or rule set stopping you from making vivid descriptions of actions and reactions. What you should really do is to explain that the rolls is to resolve an outcome of an interaction between PCs and NPCs like attacking or decieving. That shouldn't stop you from describing/acting out the action and the outcome.

[Lycan 01]

Okay. Just checking. Other than Arkham Horror, I'm a total RPG noob.

What use would a grid sheet be? I've heard you need them, but can you do without them? I'm unsure of where to get one... I checked the store that sold the games and dice and stuff, but I couldn't find a plain white sheet with a black grid on it, or anything of that sort...

[Thiel]

Me and my friends just enjoy roleplaying...

For example, in combat, can the Host explain and describe the attacks made and the wounds received? Like, lets say somebody uses a blaster, and kills an enemy. Can the Host describe the awesome headshot he made, just to add more substance to the game? That's what my friends would all enjoy, probably...

If by host you mean game master then yes. The way we do it in my group the player describes what and how he does something, rolls some dice and the GM describes the result.
For example:
PC: Ivan whips around and fire a short burst from his slugthrower at the stormtrooper. "Rolls d20 to see if he hits"
GM: You hit.
PC: Rolls damage die
GM: The first slug hits the stormtrooper in the shoulder and spins him around just as the second hits him squarely in the chest and throws him backwards into the wall where he slips to the grounds with a wet sound.

This is, obviously, only one way to do it and there's probably about as many ways to do it as there's gaming groups.

Okay. Just checking. Other than Arkham Horror, I'm a total RPG noob.

What use would a grid sheet be? I've heard you need them, but can you do without them? I'm unsure of where to get one... I checked the store that sold the games and dice and stuff, but I couldn't find a plain white sheet with a black grid on it, or anything of that sort...

You don't need one per se, but I think they make life easier. You use it to keep track of where everything is during combat. For one thing, you usually won't have to argue whether or not someone can hit whatever it is they wish to hit.

You can use just about anything with a square grid on it. Depending on the situation I've used everything from a chess board and squared note paper to a linoleum gaming mat. Same goes for minis. You can use anything that'll fit on your grid.

[Lycan 01]

Thanks! You guys have been a great help... If I have any other questions, can I PM one of ya'll for answers or advice?

[Jayabalard]

might be worth checking ebay and craigslist for used copies.

[Thiel]

Thanks! You guys have been a great help... If I have any other questions, can I PM one of ya'll for answers or advice?

Fire away.

[Hurlbut]

Thanks! You guys have been a great help... If I have any other questions, can I PM one of ya'll for answers or advice?

Sure, go ahead.

[Zim]

IMO Saga Edition is going to give you the most bang for your buck. It has detailed rules for characters, droids, sample ships and campaign building. The WotC website even has an early rebellion era campaign that you can download for free.

You can use Saga with or without figures, although I recommend with if you plan on having complicated combat situations. You don't even need to use the official minis if you don't wanna; the normal star wars action figures or galactic heroes with larger squares work fine too (and it's kinda cool ).

Just my two galactic credits' worth. Good luck!

[Lycan 01]

If there was a "bang head on desk" smiley on this forum, I'd be using it right now. The two guys dropped out entirely when it finally dawned on them that its a "pen and paper" RPG, not a "boardgame" RPG like Arkham Horror.


Oh well. I've still got a 3-5 players left, 3 for sure. Is that enough folks to still bother with it, or am I fighting a losing battle?

[Waspinator]

Something to think about also is that Amazon.com has the Sage Edition Core Rulebook for $27 instead of $40. If cash is a problem, think about that.

[Occasional Sage]

If there was a "bang head on desk" smiley on this forum, I'd be using it right now. The two guys dropped out entirely when it finally dawned on them that its a "pen and paper" RPG, not a "boardgame" RPG like Arkham Horror.


Oh well. I've still got a 3-5 players left, 3 for sure. Is that enough folks to still bother with it, or am I fighting a losing battle?

Three players is in the "dang good" range IMO; three, maybe four allows good interaction in RP in-group and with NPCs, and keeps action scenes moving well.

For the RPG-averse folks, I've gotta say that one of my favorite gaming experiences happened in one of the superhero systems (I don't remember which); I deliberately never lifted the cover of the book, just explained what character concept I wanted and what actions I wanted to take in-character, and let the game master work out the rest. He was happy to work with me that way, and it really let me get deeply into the game. I rolled what I was told to and reported the results, and LOVED EVERY SESSION. It makes for more work for the GM, but it'd make a good intro to roleplaying for the hesitant.

EDIT TO ADD: On the topic of price, I don't know the editions in question or how they compare, but Powell's has used core books for under $20: http://www.powells.com/s3?kw=star+wa...e=0&perpage=25

[Lycan 01]

Hmmmm...

Screw it. I'll just bite the bullet, and get the derned game. I'm sure it'll work out fine eventually. Who knows... I'm going to college in a few months, and I'm sure there will be Star Wars and/or RPG fans there...

[Occasional Sage]

Oh and Lycan, I missed the most important thing to say in all of this:

GOOD LUCK AND HAVE FUN!

I hope your first gaming experience turns out to be fantastic.

[Tough_Tonka]

If there was a "bang head on desk" smiley on this forum, I'd be using it right now. The two guys dropped out entirely when it finally dawned on them that its a "pen and paper" RPG, not a "boardgame" RPG like Arkham Horror.


Oh well. I've still got a 3-5 players left, 3 for sure. Is that enough folks to still bother with it, or am I fighting a losing battle?

To me it sounds like you're better off, in more ways than one. Most RPGs run smoothest when the party size is kept between 3 and 5 players. Also players that make such picky demands rarely end up contributing much besides headaches.

Best of luck for your Saga Game

[Tsotha-lanti]

Does the normal D20 game allow for much Roleplaying? That's what I enjoy the most. Just getting into character and interacting with the Star Wars world... Does normal game restrict or encourage excesive RPing?

All d20 games fail to support roleplaying (the way, for instance, HeroQuest, Pendragon, LotR, or even Fading Suns support and encourage it), but they don't actually restrict or deter it.

I have Saga, and I wouldn't run it in any period but the Old, Old Republic era. There's nothing stopping you or making that harder (especially considering that Tatooine in KotOR is exactly like Tatooine in the films, so the thousands of years apparently make no difference on the planets).

Also, 3 is pretty much the optimal number of players, in my experience. That's what I've had for the last 4 years. 5+ always seems to end up with more chatter than playing. 3-5 is definitely better than 5-7, especially to start with.

[PnP Fan]

Lycan,
A few bits of knowledge/experience/advice:
1. No RPG (that I've ever seen) actively prohibits cool descriptions, and active imagination and player participation. Players and Gamemasters might place limits on this, but I cannot think of any time when the game prevented doing so. Some games reward it, like Exalted (from White Wolf)

2. 3-5 is an ideal number of players. More than that, and you run into table discipline. Less than that, and you start losing the collaborative effort, and it winds up becoming a conversation.

3. Your two buddies are weenies. The purpose of the game is to get together with like-minded individuals, and have a good time. Not to coerce other folks into playing "your way", especially if "your way" ruins some of their fun. (nothing wrong with playing "your way," as long as you're not ruining other people's fun.) As someone else said, players who are demanding in that fashion usually don't add much to the game other than headaches. Sometimes they're just needy people, other times they're bullies.

4. Economics. Okay, you're short of cash now. Saga is a great game, and I would recommend it above other versions of the game, both for playability and accessibility. Amazon and Ebay are wonderful for used books. You need at least one set of dice at the table, paper and pencil. That's a minimum. After that, if you have the cash you can get fancy with linoleum mats (or tactiles, my personal favorite) and miniatures and whatnot. Also, the Saga edition comes with a large foldout map. It's got drawing all over it, but you it's still useable. Also, if you want cheap mini's that are functional, you can make them out of cardstock with some art miniaturized, and printed on the cardstock, cut, fold, tape and voila, instant mini.

5. College. Okay, so you'll be changing environment. You may be more strapped for cash (or not). Chances are that the majority of folks gaming at your college will be playing D&D or White Wolf games. If you're the kinda guy that needs to have the book to play, then you may want to anticipate another 30-40 dollar expenditure once you get to school.

[Lycan 01]

Hm....

Decisions, decisions...

I'll wait a little longer to get it, though. I think my friends are still enjoying Arkham Horror, so once we've played that a few more times, I'll go ahead and grab SW Saga so I can learn the rules ahead of time.

As an added bonus, one of my for-sure players has 20 or so miniatures from when he was younger. So that's an advantage to be had... heh heh...

[Person_Man]

General Advice:

Most public libraries can obtain any book through inter-library loan. You can then renew them once a month, indefinitely. Each of your friends can do this to obtain any book. If you're having trouble, talk to the librarian, as they're generally very nice people who know all sorts of tricks for getting specific/rare material.

Most large book stores have a no questions asked return policy, with 30 days (or more) to return the item. Buy the book you want. When you buy it, ask for a gift receipt, and ask them how long your friend who you're giving this to has to return it. At the the end of the month, return the book. Buy it again the next day (or at another store). I pulled this trick with video games as a kid, and ended up playing over three dozen Nintendo games over the course of several years, all based off of one initial purchase. As an added bonus, used books/games are usually replaced on the shelves with a steep discount within a few days, in case you decide you want one to keep.

Frequent any gaming store. Watch other people play games. Mention your interest in SWSE. This is an easy way to make friends, find gamers, and often get free access to massive piles of gaming related books and miniatures (since your friends will usually let you borrow them).

Don't buy your college books. During the first week of school, go to your professors' office hours. Explain to them that you're really interested in the subject matter of their class, but that you are poor, and can't really afford to buy the books on their list. Professors often get books for free (from book sellers who want them to assign them, thus scoring them dozens or hundreds of sales) and will have a spare copy or two to loan out to such students. In addition to saving piles of money, this is also a great way to build a rapport with the person who will be grading you.

Get a job. Starting at age 15, I worked 2-4 part time jobs at any given time for more then 8 years. This made me rich (at least compared to all of my student-only friends), and gave me a impressive resume (compared to the same students, who had nothing but but education and internships).

Good student jobs:

Resident Assistant: This varies widely from college to college - but it generally requires very little actual work, and comes with the perk of being able to ignore most of the rules, because you're responsible for enforcing them.

Phone banks: Sociology departments, polling firms, research companies, customer service, collection agencies, sales firms, etc. Generally high pay ($8-14 an hour), with flexible hours, and no real skill requirements. You just have to kill the part of you that cares about bothering strangers at home and being hung up on.

Wait tables at an expensive restaurant or deliver Chinese food: People generally base tips off of the total bill amount. You can easily improve these numbers with certain tricks. But the biggest trick of all is to just find a restaurant with expensive food and high turnover of tables (or a large volume of takeout). I did Chinese delivery a few days a week as my third job on and off for years, and I would literally pull $100-300 each night, in cash, with no taxes. Of course, this was 10 years ago, when gas cost 89 cents a gallon. Probably not a good option now, unless you're ok with stealing the gas from poor tippers.

Any desk job: It's pretty easy to get an entry level administrative job. Once you get a job behind a computer, you can generally spend at least 50% of your time doing other things, like surfing the internet or doing your homework.

Night Security: Plenty of places will hire you to literally sit at a desk for 8 hours a night. The pay is generally lousy. But you literally just sit there for hours at a time. Bring your books and a laptop, and you're getting paid to do structured study hall.


Anywho, even with no job experience, its pretty easy to get to $20,000+ a year, while doing most of your homework and reading at your job. Just show up on time, be nice to your bosses, apologize for your mistakes, and don't call out sick (if you're really sick, go to work anyway, and your boss will probably send you home out of pity while simultaneously praising your work ethic). Avoid debt (credit cards, car loans, and my biggest mistake in life - student debt) like the plague. Remember that by the time you're 26, no one will care what college you went to. So unless you get into the Ivy League or a prestigious Tech school, there's really no reason to rack up expenses in order to go to school. Any semi-useful degree from any reputable school is equivalent to any other semi-useful degree once you get a few years into your career.

[Lycan 01]

Um... cool. Thanks? Thats a lot of good advice... Kinda came outta nowhere, but its still good advice.

[PnP Fan]

To add to Person Man's list of "good student jobs":

Tutor: You might have to wait a semester to act on this, but Tutoring is a gold mine if you have skills/classes/confidence in desired subjects. I worked part time for the University doing this for several years. I had more than enough time to do my own work, because half of my appointments didn't show up. Now, as a student worker, I was making minimum wage, but I was doing minimum work as well. On the other hand, if you can go private, and gain customers from advertising at the student union, their is serious cash to be made. When I was in school (1991-96) people were paying $20 or more per hour for math, physics, or chemistry tutors. On the other hand, if you're going to be a lit major or a history major, or something else that's not so scary, well, you won't find much of a market for your speciality, sorry.

Also we had desk clerks in my dormatory that basically provided "security" and information. Essentially they got paid to sit on their duff for 2-4 hours per day. Minimum wage, but it still puts you ahead of the game.

Get a job now, save money for later. This is what I did with most of my summers. Worked some easy job (gas station attendant, movie theater usher, fast food, etc. . ), spent some of my money for fun, but saved the majority of my paycheck for the school year, when I tried to focus on school work.

Used books cost considerably less than new books. Sometimes you don't have a choice (and later in your college career, you'll want to keep some of the books for future reference). But you can save quite a bit of money getting used books (if PM's plan of borrowing the texts from the professor doesn't pan out).

Ramen noodles. Cheaper than any real food you can buy. Good for lunch, but I wouldn't make your entire diet out of Ramen, as it's mostly salt and carbs, with no protein, vitamins, or any of the stuff that'll keep you healthy.

Good luck, and I hope your college career goes well!

[The J Pizzel]

College was great. Class during the day, drumline practice in the evening, DnD at night. Drinking on Friday, football games (in the band, not on the team) on Saturday, sleeping in and playing FFXI and EQ2 on Sundays. Now I'm married and my schedule is a little different. Work all day, Age of Conan all evening, Gigs on Friday and Saturday, DnD on Sunday...yeah, my wife rocks. She's so understanding.

Anyway:
SAGA (as well as Crown Royal , Reese's Peanut Butter Cups, the bands U2 and Live, and of course DnD) is proof that god loves us and wants us to be happy. My ubber nerd friends and I repeatedly attempted playing SWd20. It just never worked out. Not cause of us mind you, it was that game. It just didn't feel right. We would always begin playing and all unanimously decide to call it quits, the game wasn't fun. We'd try again about 6 months later...and it still just...well...sucked.

I know some people played it and got by, but I've that most people who played it through maked major adjustments.

We (my ubber nerds and I) were highly anticipating the SAGA release. I bought 3 days early (my bookstore does that a lot) and biggest SW friend (the GM) didn't get his till about a week later. I loved calling him repeatedly to tell him how damn cool it was.

Any, the game is a godsend. We've been playing DnD for years, since AD&D actually. So we were constantly looking for a way to break from DnD and playing something else. Boy did we find it. I highly recommend SW:SAGA not only for the obvious reasons, but for one in particular that you (the OP) pointed out:

Does the normal D20 game allow for much Roleplaying? That's what I enjoy the most. Just getting into character and interacting with the Star Wars world... Does normal game restrict or encourage excesive RPing?

This is by far our biggest to SAGA. The game gives the rules and guidelinel and all that you would expect from a rulebook, but it just vague enough to let you decide how you want to implement it. Not trying to scare you and say the book doesn't explain things, it does trust me. It just leaves the role-playing wide open. I love it. We honestly sit around a table in character telling a story while the GM just smiles and tells us what to roll when. The game is so damn streamlined and fast that combat is just another part of the session. We don't even have to plan and time our sessions around fights. If a fight comes up, we do it, and keep going. It's just do samn smooth.

I highly recommend it. On an unrelated note, many of DnD 4e's combat rules were tested in SAGA, if you find you like it, look into 4e.

jP