Good Paladin/Bard build?

[SolkaTruesilver]

Hi there. An idea of character I toyed for quite some time was one of the Paladin/Bard multiclassing. The character would probably of noble-birth (the DM will probably ask me 1 feat in exchange of that).

Feat required:
- Noble Birth
- Devoted Performer (to allow paladin/bard multiclassing)
- Leadership ('cause, you know, for fun)

Then, I was thinking probably Knowledge (Nobility/Royalty). A good thing for a high-charisma character would also probably be Sacred Healing (from Complete Divine). Since my Turn Undead capacity will be worth nothing outside of it, and it is a good thing to heal a lot of my minions. I said minions? I meant zealots.

Any good idea of Skill/Feat I could take? Or a good PrC that fits the general idea?

Skill I would like: Diplomacy (off course), Sense Motive, Knowledge (War tactics).

I am open to suggestions

[SolkaTruesilver]

Yup. But if you read Devoted Performer, it allows you to be a bard while being Lawful Good. Essentially, it allows Bard/Paladin multiclassing, and you can take levels of bard without leaving the Paladin classforever.

And Paladin/Bard class are combined for the number of Bardic Music you can perform each day, and the damage done by Smite Evil.

Edit: This post seems weird at first, but someone had posted that there is alignement issue for multiclassing Bard/Paladin..

[Telonius]

The build would depend, at least partly, on what you want to do with it. What's the character concept? Is this going to be chiefly a melee Paladin, who likes to play the lute occasionally? Or is it going to be mainly a spellcasting, inspiring Bard who devoted his life and music to Pelor?

[CasESenSITItiVE]

i am currently playing a bard//paladin gestalt. a useful feat i found was battle dancer. as long as you travel at least 5 feat and are giving +1 or more bonus via bard song, you get a +2 and extra +1d4 damage. i will get back to you on the source

[SolkaTruesilver]

To tell the truth, I am not totally sure if I want to be a front-line warrior who inspire his troops (More paladin than bard) or a member of the Royalty who is good at political manoeuvering, leading and inspiring his troops from afar.

I guess I'd do 5/5 until level 10, and then choose if I want to focus on either one of those.

(Hum.. I am pretty sure that in warfare, a group of 40 soldiers lvl 1-2 who were Inspired with Bardic Music, and had all Fast Healing 3 for a few rounds would be quite dangerous)

[Keld Denar]

I'd say something like Bard4/Pal16 actually. Since you are already LG, consider taking Words of Creation from BoED to double your Inspire Courage. Then focus on gear that twinks out your IC, like a Badge of Valor or Vest of Legends. Take the Bard3 Alt Class Feature from the Ebberon Campaign Setting to swap Inspire Compentance (blech!) for Song of the Heart (yay!). Cast Inspirational Boost right before you sing, and stack it all together for a massive +x/+x hit and damage. Then get a nice fat 2hander, your basic Greatsword would work out fine. Take Power Attack and Divine Might (CD) and lay forth some righteous smackdown. You an PA for a lot, because you have IC backing you up, and you get your IC and +cha mod to damage. Lots of great cha synergy.

For extra kicks, get your weapon enchanted with Sudden Stunning from DMGII. It allows you to spend a swift action AFTER YOU HIT to force the hit foe to make a reflex save DC 10+cha+1/2level or be stunned for 1d4+1 rounds. Thats sick. You can use that +cha times per day. Also, it is usable +cha times per day, which averages out to 1-2 times per encounter.

[SolkaTruesilver]

...wow

ok, lemme see it..

- Word of Creation (BOED)

Badge of Valor
Vest of Legend (where do I find those?)

I don'T think I will take anything from Ebberron..

- Divine Might (CD) (I'll have to check out that one..)

Sudden stunning? Hmm.. maybe.. We'll see..

[Pie Guy]

And remember, IC doesn't need a con check. (I think)

So you can battle and ispire courage with either perform(poetry) or Perform(oracion).

[Behold_the_Void]

Something you might also consider is instead going Crusader (Tome of Battle)/Bard with Song of the White Raven for a tactical and inspirational commander.

[Citizen Joe]

Bard: Any NONLAWFUL
Paladin: Lawful Good.

Conflict...

[Frosty]

...wow

ok, lemme see it..

- Word of Creation (BOED)

Badge of Valor
Vest of Legend (where do I find those?)

I don'T think I will take anything from Ebberron..

- Divine Might (CD) (I'll have to check out that one..)

Sudden stunning? Hmm.. maybe.. We'll see..

Isn't the badge from MiC? I could be wrong.

[Tsotha-lanti]

Bard: Any NONLAWFUL
Paladin: Lawful Good.

O ye of little faith.

Devoted Performer: "In addition, you can multiclass freely between paladin and bard classes and may even gain additional bard levels regardless of your lawful alignment."

Seriously, why do so many people ignore the feat in these threads, when it's usually mentioned explicitly right from the start?

SolkaTruesilver:

Consider Paladin of Freedom (for thematic appropriateness, mostly).

Get Snowflake Wardance (Frostburn), Power Attack, Divine Might, anything else that uses Charisma (and maybe converts turning attempts into something useful). Those three feats and DevPer are the absolute necessities to make this build work. Once you've got PA, DP, DM, and SW, you can think about getting something else.

Switch out your mount for the charging smite variant ability (PHB2).

I forget what Initiate of Milil (Champions of Valor) does just now, but check it out too.

[Keld Denar]

Snowflake Wardance requires that you only wield the weapon in 1 hand, thus denying you the full benefit of 2:1 PA, which is the true source of melee damage.

Song of the Heart is a feat from Ebberon, but its not Ebberon specific. You just sing so good it makes people teary eyed. Mechanically, its just another +1 from Inspire Courage. The Ebberon Alt Class Feature allows you to take it instead of Inspire Compentance, but you could just take it as a feat at level 3+ without it.

Badge of Valor is in the back of MIC, with the set gear.
Vest of Legends is in the DMGII.
Inspirational Boost is in SpC.

By level 8 Bardadin, you could have an IC of (3x2)+3 = +9 with both the vest and the badge. Vest raises your level to 13, giving you +3 I think, doubling to 6 with Words. Insp Boost, Badge, and Song of the Heart increase that a further 3 points to +9hit/+9dmg. That's pretty respectable. You'll have an 7 BAB with Pal4/Bard4 which you should be able to PA for 14 extra damage and still hit reliably. Depending on your level build, you could also net Pal4 in time to get turn undead by level 6 to take Divine Might as your level 6 feat to stack on an extra +cha damage.

You'll probably out damage any straight class fighter or barb at your level, except for the fact that you are SHARING THE +9 HIT/DMG WITH YOUR WHOLE FREAKIN PARTY! How's that for teamwork?

Oh, and with Bard4 comes a single 2nd level spell. Check out Whirling Blade in Spell Compendium for a ranged attack well worth your money.

[Hal]

Badge of Valor is in the back of MIC, with the set gear.
Vest of Legends is in the DMGII.
Inspirational Boost is in SpC.

By level 8 Bardadin, you could have an IC of (3x2)+3 = +9 with both the vest and the badge.

Can you afford both of those by level 8? I don't know what the costs for each are.

[Keld Denar]

Can you afford both of those by level 8? I don't know what the costs for each are.

I'm 97.8% sure that the Vest is 12k gold, and the Badge is somewhere between 1k and 2k gold. Very affordable for an 8th level character, with probably a bit of cash left over for a nice +1 Sudden Stunning Greatsword (around 4.5k gold).

[Chronicled]

Divine Might is from Complete Warrior, actually.

[Hal]

Very affordable for an 8th level character, with probably a bit of cash left over for a nice +1 Sudden Stunning Greatsword (around 4.5k gold).

Is Sudden Stunning a cash valued enhancement or a +X enhancement? That sword is going to cost you at least 8000gp if Sudden Stunning is at least a +1 enhancement.

[Keld Denar]

Is Sudden Stunning a cash valued enhancement or a +X enhancement? That sword is going to cost you at least 8000gp if Sudden Stunning is at least a +1 enhancement.

Sudden Stunning as printed in DMGII is only +2000 gold, no enhancement equivilant. Its really really really strong in that form. MIC has Stunning Surge, which is a +1 equiv, static DC, is only 1 round, and only once per day....which is total crap. Sudden Stunning is WAY better, depending on what your DM will allow.

[The Extinguisher]

I've been planning to use one of these for a while.

It's an interesting idea. But I'm using a more bard than paladin build.

[ocato]

Snowflake Wardance requires that you only wield the weapon in 1 hand, thus denying you the full benefit of 2:1 PA, which is the true source of melee damage.

Song of the Heart is a feat from Ebberon, but its not Ebberon specific. You just sing so good it makes people teary eyed. Mechanically, its just another +1 from Inspire Courage. The Ebberon Alt Class Feature allows you to take it instead of Inspire Compentance, but you could just take it as a feat at level 3+ without it.

Badge of Valor is in the back of MIC, with the set gear.
Vest of Legends is in the DMGII.
Inspirational Boost is in SpC.

By level 8 Bardadin, you could have an IC of (3x2)+3 = +9 with both the vest and the badge. Vest raises your level to 13, giving you +3 I think, doubling to 6 with Words. Insp Boost, Badge, and Song of the Heart increase that a further 3 points to +9hit/+9dmg. That's pretty respectable. You'll have an 7 BAB with Pal4/Bard4 which you should be able to PA for 14 extra damage and still hit reliably. Depending on your level build, you could also net Pal4 in time to get turn undead by level 6 to take Divine Might as your level 6 feat to stack on an extra +cha damage.

You'll probably out damage any straight class fighter or barb at your level, except for the fact that you are SHARING THE +9 HIT/DMG WITH YOUR WHOLE FREAKIN PARTY! How's that for teamwork?

Oh, and with Bard4 comes a single 2nd level spell. Check out Whirling Blade in Spell Compendium for a ranged attack well worth your money.

Or grab Dragonfire Inspiration (dragon magic) to change that to +9d6 fire damage to the attacks of the entire party. Less accuracy but exponentially more damage.

[Keld Denar]

Unless you are already power attacking for your full BAB, regular IC only lags .5 damage per +1 of IC. +1 hit becomes +2 dmg, which means 3 damage consistant from converting IC to PA. Dragonfire Insp is xd6, which is 3.5 average damage per +1 of IC. Regular IC also has the benefit of being weapon typed damage, while DFI is elemental. You are already beating through the DR on a creature with weapon damage, so the PA due to IC goes over the top of that without being diminished. Against a creature with DR and elemental resistance, such as most outsiders, your damage gets tagged twice. DFI is often better, but with 2hand PA, IC has some perks too.

Plus, IC helps any casters in your group land touch attacks, such as rays and orbs. DFI doesn't do anything for them. Choose which you'll use most often based on your party. Lots of rogues/monks/samuri/rapid strike druids/etc, get DFI for sure. Lots of 2hand PA melee types and casters? Stick to normal IC and save yourself the feat.

[Temp.]

lussmanj covered my usual spiel. Even though it's fun to throw a big wad of d6s around, it's not always a good option. Energy resistance is the big killer. If every monster you hit ignores a quarter of your bonus damage, the 12d6 damage loses a bit of appeal. When monsters start ignoring it altogether, you've wasted a feat.

I forget what Initiate of Milil (Champions of Valor) does just now, but check it out too.

It stacks Bard, Cleric and Paladin levels for the purpose of determining what kinds of Bardic music a character can play. Some players take this to mean that it determines a Bard's IC bonus; some players only read this to mean new kinds of effects. Depending on the interpretation it's either a very nice choice or rubbish.

[jcsw]

Divine Bard so you can cast in full armor? A instrument as divine focus for bard spells would look cool too.

Also, if you wanted to give fast healing 3 to a group of 40 soldiers, try the Dove's Harp from magic item compendium.

[Solo]

Hi there. An idea of character I toyed for quite some time was one of the Paladin/Bard multiclassing. The character would probably of noble-birth (the DM will probably ask me 1 feat in exchange of that).

Feat required:
- Noble Birth
- Devoted Performer (to allow paladin/bard multiclassing)
- Leadership ('cause, you know, for fun)

Then, I was thinking probably Knowledge (Nobility/Royalty). A good thing for a high-charisma character would also probably be Sacred Healing (from Complete Divine). Since my Turn Undead capacity will be worth nothing outside of it, and it is a good thing to heal a lot of my minions. I said minions? I meant zealots.

Any good idea of Skill/Feat I could take? Or a good PrC that fits the general idea?

Skill I would like: Diplomacy (off course), Sense Motive, Knowledge (War tactics).

I am open to suggestions

Drop Noble Birth and Leadership if possible, and replace them. And get that extra feat if at all possible: you want feats and should not give them up for anything unless it's incredibly awesome.

Good candidates for replacement feats are Snowflake Wardance, Ironskin Chant, Power Attack and Divine Might.

[SolkaTruesilver]

Drop Noble Birth and Leadership if possible, and replace them. And get that extra feat if at all possible: you want feats and should not give them up for anything unless it's incredibly awesome.

Good candidates for replacement feats are Snowflake Wardance, Ironskin Chant, Power Attack and Divine Might.

Didn't somebody said that Snowflake Wardace required 1 free hand?

[Solo]

Didn't somebody said that Snowflake Wardace required 1 free hand?

So free up one hand.

Good god man, I'm sure you can spare one hand from caressing your other weapons!

[Hal]

Divine Bard so you can cast in full armor? A instrument as divine focus for bard spells would look cool too.

Also, if you wanted to give fast healing 3 to a group of 40 soldiers, try the Dove's Harp from magic item compendium.

Divine Bard introduces some issues. You'll end up casting equally well as a Paladin or a Bard, since Divine Bard uses Wisdom as its casting stat. The only problem is that you get that MAD going on, trying to pump both Wis and Cha. In addition, you'll lose any Chaotic spells you might want to cast as a Bard.

FWIW.

[Tsotha-lanti]

Didn't somebody said that Snowflake Wardace required 1 free hand?

Not sure about one free hand; it requires you to use a one-handed slashing weapon.

It beats PA because your Cha bonus will be something like +10 very soon (or should be), and you're not taking a penalty to attacks to get that extra damage. If you do PA, you'll be dealing +15 or more damage at -5 to attacks...

[Solo]

You add your Charisma modifier to your attack rolls with any slashing melee weapon you wield in one hand.

Direct quote.

[SolkaTruesilver]

Well, it looks great. Kinda a powerbuild however. But it looks nice.

I'll tell you how it turns out.. :)