Awarding XP for killing DMNPCs

[Xyk]

I tend to make my baddies by hand. How do I award experience? Is there like a formula or something? Mine are essentially PCs, but I control them.

[Azerian Kelimon]

I tend to make my baddies by hand. How do I award experience? Is there like a formula or something? Mine are essentially PCs, but I control them.

Enemies don't win XP. DMPC's get XP as normal.

[Reinboom]

I do this as well (referring to the OP's post).
However, I only give them experience for "grand tasks" or accomplishing their own personal larger goals.
Winning a major battle as a lead in an army. Assassinating a lord. Etc.

Or if they are less major, then similar to PCs. Killing the druid that lead an attack on the NPC's druid - or alternatively - for the NPC druid destroying the NPC village.

I also tend to only give them half XP.

Enemies don't win XP. DMPC's get XP as normal.

A person can not play that way, y'know.

[Xyk]

I seem to have been misunderstood. I meant for killing the handmade baddies. How much XP should the average party of 3 lvl 1s get for killing a level 3 barbarian or something.

[Azerian Kelimon]

I seem to have been misunderstood. I meant for killing the handmade baddies. How much XP should the average party of 3 lvl 1s get for killing a level 3 barbarian or something.

The DMG has rules for that. If you feel it's powerful enough to qualify for a higher CR, just treat the mob as a higher CR.

[ShadowSiege]

I seem to have been misunderstood. I meant for killing the handmade baddies. How much XP should the average party of 3 lvl 1s get for killing a level 3 barbarian or something.

A PC classed enemy has a CR equal to its class + level adjustment.

[Azerian Kelimon]

A PC classed enemy has a CR equal to its class + level adjustment.

Unless you feel it's far more powerful than it's level indicates, for example, a FoI factotum, or a well tweaked swordsage.

[Citizen Joe]

Were they meant to be killed as an adversary? If not, don't award anything. Stop encouraging your players to go around killing the quest givers.

[Xyk]

Whoah! a level 3 orc barb should not at all be CR3, that's ridiculous. it's one person, not a challenge for 4 of the same level! Especially considering there are supposed to be both a cleric and a wizard in the party. Thanks though, I found the table after looking in the DMG. I usually use the srd encounter calculator for XP awards.

[Azerian Kelimon]

Whoah! a level 3 orc barb should not at all be CR3, that's ridiculous. it's one person, not a challenge for 4 of the same level! Especially considering there are supposed to be both a cleric and a wizard in the party. Thanks though, I found the table after looking in the DMG. I usually use the srd encounter calculator for XP awards.

It is, according to the rules. One class level = +1 CR.

Of course, that's b0rked, because PC's tend to be something like either 2 or 10 CR above their level. A badly built barb WOULD be a challenge for 3-4 PC's of level 3, though.

But as they say, when the rules are stupid, you **** the rules and do it your way.

[Worira]

Whoah! a level 3 orc barb should not at all be CR3, that's ridiculous. it's one person, not a challenge for 4 of the same level! Especially considering there are supposed to be both a cleric and a wizard in the party. Thanks though, I found the table after looking in the DMG. I usually use the srd encounter calculator for XP awards.

An equivalent-CR challenge should be equal to a single PC, and should take about 20% of a party's daily resources to defeat. They shouldn't be as powerful as the party.

[Douglas]

Whoah! a level 3 orc barb should not at all be CR3, that's ridiculous. it's one person, not a challenge for 4 of the same level! Especially considering there are supposed to be both a cleric and a wizard in the party. Thanks though, I found the table after looking in the DMG. I usually use the srd encounter calculator for XP awards.

A "challenge" - that is, something with a 50-50 chance of winning against the level 3 party - would be a CR 7 creature. CR X does not mean "will seriously threaten a level X party". It means "will take a level X party about 20% of its daily resources to beat". Power roughly doubles every 2 points of CR, so to get something an even match for a 4 member party you would need an opponent of CR 4 above party level.

[Xyk]

An equivalent-CR challenge should be equal to a single PC, and should take about 20% of a party's daily resources to defeat. They shouldn't be as powerful as the party.

I'm pretty sure it said half in the DMG. Oh wait, no, that says 20%. that is far too easy. I admit I was wrong...I am sorry.

[tyckspoon]

I'm pretty sure it said half in the DMG. Oh wait, no, that says 20%. that is far too easy. I admit I was wrong...I am sorry.

A party is supposed to be able to handle 4 equal-CR encounters in a day. If each one works exactly as intended (they never do, but hey, it's a theoretical construct) then the party has expended about 80% of their resources, where resources comprises all of HP, per-day abilities, expendable magic items, etc. If they are subjected to a fifth equal-CR encounter, they should beat it.. but they'll have just about nothing left. A couple of them may have actually died. A higher CR encounter at that point has a very high chance of killing at least one party member and may cause a TPK. If you prefer every fight to bear a risk of death or at least seriously test the party's resources, you should use higher CR enemies as your primary encounters. Or have intelligent enemies act intelligently- there are a number of monsters that become far more dangerous than their CR if they make good use of the spell-likes and other abilities they have.

[Chronos]

A PC classed enemy has a CR equal to its class + level adjustment.

Level adjustment does not affect CR at all. Most things that give a level adjustment also give a separate CR adjustment, which may or may not be the same number.

As for a CR 3 not being a challenge for a level 3 party, remember that CR equal to party level is supposed to be the sort of thing you can throw at the party four times a day, every day of an adventure, and that an adventure is supposed to be something that the party has a pretty good chance of surviving. If you throw things at the party that have a chance of killing them all, several times a day, the odds are going to catch up to them pretty quickly, and you'll have a TPK.

Now, there should be some things in the game that do have a significant chance of mopping the floor with the party. The final villain of a campaign should not be on the same power level as the things they're fighting four times a day. But those things have a challenge rating higher than the party's level.

[Yakk]

An even fight is a ECL+4 or +5 encounter.

Ie, a party of 4 level 4 PCs, built on the elite array, should find a CR 8 to 9 monster to be about an even fight.

That is based off of four same-level NPCs (each even CR), producing an encounter of CR+4.

[tyckspoon]

An even fight is a ECL+4 or +5 encounter.

Ie, a party of 4 level 4 PCs, built on the elite array, should find a CR 8 to 9 monster to be about an even fight.

That is based off of four same-level NPCs (each even CR), producing an encounter of CR+4.

Practically speaking, a single CR 8/9 monster will probably kill a level 4 party. You're expected to fight that monster with level 8 gear, stats, and (especially) spells (er.. spell level 4, character level 8.) If you're trying to take that on with just level 4 stuff and second-level spells, you're probably going to fail- the monster will have higher AC, saves, damage, and possibly resistances than you're supposed to be hitting at that level.

A group of even or lesser CR monsters with enough numbers to increase the encounter's effective CR/encounter level can be a tough-but-fair fight, because they're all individually low enough to fight. They aren't equivalent to one high CR monster, tho, which is just another point where the CR system breaks down.

[Chronos]

It really depends on the creature in question. If the only way it's possible to kill a particular monster is via one particular fourth-level spell, for instance, then that monster is going to be listed as at least CR 7, and you should never throw it at a party below that (except maybe in a situation where they're just supposed to run from or otherwise avoid it). If it's just a matter of the monster being more resilient overall, or just hitting harder, or whatever, then it can be reasonable to occasionally throw one against a lower-level party (as long as you don't do it too often).

[Farmer42]

Yeah, I don't remember which book it is (Heroes of Horror?) where they talk about building encounters that will scare the PCs and they mention that the ideal final boss style monster is between 2 an 4 CR's higher than the party, making it a real fight, one won with real effort.

[SolkaTruesilver]

Personnally, I'd say they get experience as the plot dictate.

[sikyon]

Practically speaking, a single CR 8/9 monster will probably kill a level 4 party. You're expected to fight that monster with level 8 gear, stats, and (especially) spells (er.. spell level 4, character level 8.) If you're trying to take that on with just level 4 stuff and second-level spells, you're probably going to fail- the monster will have higher AC, saves, damage, and possibly resistances than you're supposed to be hitting at that level.

A group of even or lesser CR monsters with enough numbers to increase the encounter's effective CR/encounter level can be a tough-but-fair fight, because they're all individually low enough to fight. They aren't equivalent to one high CR monster, tho, which is just another point where the CR system breaks down.

Depends on what you're fighting.

Ie. fighters power scales quadratically with their level, approximatly. Double HP means 2x as strong. Double damage means 2x as strong again. That's 4x as strong, total.

However, wizard power scales by a might higher amount, 2x for HP and then perhaps linearly with number of spells and then perhaps 4x for each spell level increase. It's complicated.

[FlyMolo]

Well said guy above me.

There's 'hard' CR and 'soft' CR. Weaker enemies with more HD are almost always soft CR, because they'll have nothing that's too hard for the party, just more accurate and harder-hitting/absorbing. Something like a shadow, though, is a 'hard' CR. No magic weapons? You're toast. Simple as that. If you have magic weapons, you might be okay, if you don't, you're dead.

Dragons are also too hard for the their CR, which is always huge(but they have so much loot!). Then again, dragons are a win button for DMs. Smart enough to take advantage of any metaknowledge the DM has, strong enough to wade into melee if necessary, and with a hoard of treasure. Always roll treasure before combat begins(well in advance) So that you can have the dragon use scrolls, fling things at other people, etc. Magic weapons are fun to throw. Especially if they're sized wrong for the dragon.

So yeah. Player CR is different from monster CR, and both are different in groups or singly. 4 individually appropriate monsters make a beastly encounter because they can flank the fighter AND attack the spellcasters. One huge monster gets flanked and SA to death right away.