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  1. - Top - End - #1
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    PirateGuy

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    tongue Random 4th Edition Artwork Nitpick (Because it's popular!)

    Player's Handbook page 103.

    Can't really provide the direct picture, maybe some else will be so kind as to oblige.

    Anyway...

    Elven Jedi with twin green lightsabers?!

    I knew 4th edition was borrowing stuff from Star Wars Saga Edition but this is ridiclous.

    Discuss.

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    Default Re: Random 4th Edition Artwork Nitpick (Because it's popular!)

    Clarke's law: Sufficiently advanced tech is indistinguishable from magic.

    That's all.

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    Ogre in the Playground
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    Default Re: Random 4th Edition Artwork Nitpick (Because it's popular!)

    Similarly, sufficiently advanced magic is indistinguishable from technology.

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    Default Re: Random 4th Edition Artwork Nitpick (Because it's popular!)

    When isn't magic advanced enough in D&D?

    On other settings, though, that applies.

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    Default Re: Random 4th Edition Artwork Nitpick (Because it's popular!)

    She's so...green o.o
    "Come play in the darkness with me."
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    Default Re: Random 4th Edition Artwork Nitpick (Because it's popular!)

    Brilliant Energy ftw.
    Quote Originally Posted by BRC View Post
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    Default Re: Random 4th Edition Artwork Nitpick (Because it's popular!)

    It's fundamental law of the tropeverse that Power Glows. The more glow, the more power.

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    Default Re: Random 4th Edition Artwork Nitpick (Because it's popular!)

    AAARG! That glow, it makes me so mad! RAGE RAGE RAAAAAAAAAAAAGE! *explodes*


    Wait...Did you just complain about a picture, and then not even show us? I can't even see the picture. (granted you can't provide it. Why bother than?)
    Your post is technically worse than talking to hear yourself. There's literally nothing to "discuss". Come on dude, you can do better.
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    ClericGuy

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    Default Re: Random 4th Edition Artwork Nitpick (Because it's popular!)

    The first picture of the Tieflings I saw from 4e made me think:
    "Oh look, what cute little evil Draenei."
    Then again, just seeing picture of the Dragonborn make me want to play as one. Also, I think the dwarves look less like Warhammer than they did in the last edition.

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    Default Re: Random 4th Edition Artwork Nitpick (Because it's popular!)

    Quote Originally Posted by Azerian Kelimon View Post
    Clarke's law: Sufficiently advanced tech is indistinguishable from magic.

    That's all.
    Quote Originally Posted by Fishy View Post
    Similarly, sufficiently advanced magic is indistinguishable from technology.
    Actually, it doesn't work quite the same in reverse. Magic, by its very conception, can do stuff that technology simply cannot.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Necroswanso View Post
    Wait...Did you just complain about a picture, and then not even show us?
    The artist is William O'Connor. Unfortunately, this piece of art is not available at his online studio.
    Last edited by Matthew; 2008-05-31 at 05:00 AM.
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    Default Re: Random 4th Edition Artwork Nitpick (Because it's popular!)

    Quote Originally Posted by Matthew View Post
    Actually, it doesn't work quite the same in reverse. Magic, by its very conception, can do stuff that technology simply cannot.
    Well... it's indistinguishable from sufficiently advanced technology... but we're just splittin' hairs here
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    Default Re: Random 4th Edition Artwork Nitpick (Because it's popular!)

    Quote Originally Posted by The Necroswanso View Post
    Wait...Did you just complain about a picture, and then not even show us? I can't even see the picture. (granted you can't provide it. Why bother than?)
    I think that this is the picture refered to:

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    Last edited by Dhavaer; 2008-05-31 at 05:02 AM.
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    Dhavaer, your ideas are like candy from the sky, sprinkled lightly with cinnamon.
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    Wow. Badass without being flashy and showy, attractive while remaining classy. Bravo Dhavaer.
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    ...Why do I imagine you licking your lips and rubbing your hands together?

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    Default Re: Random 4th Edition Artwork Nitpick (Because it's popular!)

    Quote Originally Posted by Skyserpent View Post
    Well... it's indistinguishable from sufficiently advanced technology... but we're just splittin' hairs here
    No, actually that's not true either, as such a view assumes that technology can overcome the laws of physics, which is impossible. Magic on the other hand, has no such restriction - that's what makes it magic [i.e. impossible]. If technology were to overcome physics it would be magic.
    Last edited by Matthew; 2008-05-31 at 05:03 AM.
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    Barbarian in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: Random 4th Edition Artwork Nitpick (Because it's popular!)

    Quote Originally Posted by Matthew View Post
    No, actually that's not true either, as such a view assumes that technology can overcome the laws of physics, which is impossible. Magic on the other hand, has no such restriction - that's what makes it magic [i.e. impossible]. If technology were to overcome physics it would be magic.
    Ah, but we would CALL it Science!

    it would be a NEW science, yes, but still Science. Historically people believed humans could never achieve flight, and so, anything that could fly would very easily be called "Magical" but once it happened, well, it did.

    Breaking the Speed of Light could very much be like breaking the speed of sound. Though the nuances and mechanics of it are such that it would have to disprove a hitherto undisputed "Law".

    I'm not saying it happened, but what I am saying is that "Laws" of science have been proven wrong before, and it's by testing the limits of said "laws" that we can manage to accidentally or purposefully surpass them.

    Of course... Modern Physics are pretty solid, it'll take a WHILE before we can even THINK about beating that... Singularity level stuff you know?

    Anyway, I think that I could imagine some theoretical super-future where people do stuff that I would think was downright freakin' Magical.


    I mean, it CAN go the other way around, (Sufficient Magic indistinguishable from Tech) But I mean, we'd have to set the bar for Tech a little higher than it currently is, which I think is totally possible, if a little less feasible considering the upper-limit set by Magic is nigh-infinite, but here in "Reality" we like to put "Realistic" limits on things that we break in a few decades/centuries anyway... Not that we WILL break them, but we do have a track record of it...
    Last edited by Skyserpent; 2008-05-31 at 05:13 AM.
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    Titan in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: Random 4th Edition Artwork Nitpick (Because it's popular!)

    Quote Originally Posted by Skyserpent View Post
    Ah, but we would CALL it Science!
    I think you missed the point. Impossible things are not possible. Technology doing the 'impossible' is mere rhetoric, it is not possible. Magic doing the impossible is impossible because magic does not exist, the things it is capable of being only limited by the imagination. This is not true of technology, there are limits to what it can ever achieve.

    You may disagree as to what the limits of technology are, but there are hard limits [i.e. not "we're not advanced enough" limits]. Or maybe you don't agree there are limits, I don't know.
    Last edited by Matthew; 2008-05-31 at 05:23 AM.
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    Default Re: Random 4th Edition Artwork Nitpick (Because it's popular!)

    Well... if something happens, it's possible isn't it? In that sense, it just meant that what was assumed to be the correct model of physics of the Universe was wrong. It's kind of nitpicky, but it seems to me that in a world with magic, any models of physics are going to take magic into account.

    "Two objects fall at an equal rate regardless of mass, unless a wizard makes it so they don't."
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    Default Re: Random 4th Edition Artwork Nitpick (Because it's popular!)

    Quote Originally Posted by Xuincherguixe View Post
    Well... if something happens, it's possible isn't it? In that sense, it just meant that what was assumed to be the correct model of physics of the Universe was wrong. It's kind of nitpicky, but it seems to me that in a world with magic, any models of physics are going to take magic into account.

    "Two objects fall at an equal rate regardless of mass, unless a wizard makes it so they don't."
    Nope, this is an interesting and common conception of magic as a branch of science. Magic (if it were to exist) would not obey the physical laws of the universe (well, some versions might, but we're talking extreme cases here). It is essentially miraculous and inexplicable, which is to say it controvenes all known laws of the universe in such a way that would make a nonesense of any attempt to explain what happens within the boundaries of any sort of physics. That is to say, there is no physical explanation for magic, it's not just beyond knowledge, but beyond the possibility of knowledge.

    To put it another way, everytime magic occurs the following statement is true: "Something impossible just happened", which is to say a paradox is created.
    Last edited by Matthew; 2008-05-31 at 06:09 AM.
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  18. - Top - End - #18
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: Random 4th Edition Artwork Nitpick (Because it's popular!)

    Quote Originally Posted by Matthew View Post
    Nope, this is an interesting and common conception of magic as a branch of science. Magic (if it were to exist) would not obey the physical laws of the universe (well, some versions might, but we're talking extreme cases here). It is essentially miraculous and inexplicable, which is to say it controvenes all known laws of the universe in such a way that would make a nonesense of any attempt to explain what happens within the boundaries of any sort of physics. That is to say, there is no physical explanation for magic, it's not just beyond knowledge, but beyond the possibility of knowledge.

    To put it another way, everytime magic occurs the following statement is true: "Something impossible just happened", which is to say a paradox is created.
    Hence the entire plot behind Mage: the Awakening or whatever it calls itself now, (It's fun!) But I digress:

    I suppose you're right. Technology CANNOT hit the upper limit posed by magic due to there not BEING an upper limit posed by magic. At least in some areas. There are situations where "Magic" is being utilized to perform mundane tasks which Technology can mimic perfectly, but the nature of technology IS such that it can't match the functional idea of Magic defined as "Something impossible made possible." Though some may define magic as "Something ludicrous made plausible" This isn't what we deal with in D&D. So how about I pose this one:

    "Sufficient amounts of magic can be indistinguishable from technology. Though the upper limits of said magic surpass this distinction. "


    As a side note on the Physics discussion: PHYSICS doesn't necessarily obey the laws of Physics in all cases. I mean, aren't quantum and atomic physics both incompatible? This means we're either wrong or missing something... so it COULD be conceivable that we can break what is currently defined as a Law of physics if it turns out we were wrong about that particular law... As I said, it's happened in the past, Heliocentric ism and all that.

    Once again though: Conceivable doesn't mean anything REMOTELY near likely. It's just a thought I found interesting...
    Last edited by Skyserpent; 2008-05-31 at 07:24 AM.
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    Default Re: Random 4th Edition Artwork Nitpick (Because it's popular!)

    Quote Originally Posted by Skyserpent View Post
    "Sufficient amounts of magic can be indistinguishable from technology. Though the upper limits of said magic surpass this distinction. "
    Sounds reasonable to me. I think another point about Clarke's law is that Clarke himself presupposes that magic does not exist, hence his postulation that anything that appears magical is in fact the result of technology. when people reverse the law, I think they miss the point, but we have probably derailed this thread enough already... where's Charity with the obligatory train derailment image?

    Quote Originally Posted by Skyserpent View Post
    As a side note on the Physics discussion: PHYSICS doesn't necessarily obey the laws of Physics in all cases. I mean, aren't quantum and atomic physics both incompatible? This means we're either wrong or missing something... so it COULD be conceivable that we can break what is currently defined as a Law of physics if it turns out we were wrong about that particular law... As I said, it's happened in the past, Heliocentric ism and all that.

    Once again though: Conceivable doesn't mean anything REMOTELY near likely. It's just a thought I found interesting...
    You would have to ask somebody more learned on the subject than me (Dervag or Dan Hemmens, pehaps?). My understanding is that there is physics "the model" and physics "the reality", the former describes the latter and is undergoing a constant process of refinement and correction (and thus is in a state of minor flux on account of disagreement). Magic would not just contradict the description, but the reality.

    That said, I think that very high level physics starts to interact with philosophical, theological and religious concepts in ways that I am not conversant with.
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    Default Re: Random 4th Edition Artwork Nitpick (Because it's popular!)

    Quote Originally Posted by Skyserpent View Post
    I suppose you're right. Technology CANNOT hit the upper limit posed by magic due to there not BEING an upper limit posed by magic.
    In most fantasy settings I'm aware of (Mage: the Ascension, and Amber, being two exceptions), there is very much an upper limit to what magic can actually do. "Magic can do whatever I say it does" is such a cop out, that having meaningful methods and limits to it tends to make for a better story.
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    Default Re: Random 4th Edition Artwork Nitpick (Because it's popular!)

    Quote Originally Posted by Kurald Galain View Post
    In most fantasy settings I'm aware of (Mage: the Ascension, and Amber, being two exceptions), there is very much an upper limit to what magic can actually do. "Magic can do whatever I say it does" is such a cop out, that having meaningful methods and limits to it tends to make for a better story.
    I think that's usually a limit as to what the practioners can do, rather than a limitation of magic as a concept. That said, I can certainly think of modern stories where a character claims that he has reached the limits of what magic can achieve, but that usually conveys some sort of moral message, I think.
    It is a joyful thing indeed to hold intimate converse with a man after one’s own heart, chatting without reserve about things of interest or the fleeting topics of the world; but such, alas, are few and far between.

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    Default Re: Random 4th Edition Artwork Nitpick (Because it's popular!)

    A better nitpick than the OP is that a large majority of the characters in the races section appear to be left-handed. Notably, the artists don't seem to know the correct way to hold a bow.

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    Default Re: Random 4th Edition Artwork Nitpick (Because it's popular!)

    Bows are like hockey sticks, the handedness is a matter of preference. Or are they holding the bows wrong some other way?
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    Default Re: Random 4th Edition Artwork Nitpick (Because it's popular!)

    I have met precious few who hold either hockey stick or bow the "goofy" way (if you will) for their handedness; that having been said, you are technically correct. It's possible, though improbably disproportionate.
    Last edited by UserClone; 2008-05-31 at 09:42 AM.

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    Default Re: Random 4th Edition Artwork Nitpick (Because it's popular!)

    Quote Originally Posted by FlWiPig View Post
    I have met precious few who hold either hockey stick or bow the "goofy" way (if you will) for their handedness; that having been said, you are technically correct. It's possible, though improbably disproportionate.
    How are you defining "goofy", exactly? Most right-handed professional hockey players shoot left, but it's certainly not an overwhelming statistic.
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    Default Re: Random 4th Edition Artwork Nitpick (Because it's popular!)

    Quote Originally Posted by Xsjado View Post
    A better nitpick than the OP is that a large majority of the characters in the races section appear to be left-handed. Notably, the artists don't seem to know the correct way to hold a bow.
    Maybe they've finally acknowledged the role that Legend of Zelda had on modern fantasy?

    (For these who don't know, Link, just like yours truly, is left-handed.)

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    Default Re: Random 4th Edition Artwork Nitpick (Because it's popular!)

    Quote Originally Posted by Worira View Post
    Bows are like hockey sticks, the handedness is a matter of preference. Or are they holding the bows wrong some other way?
    It is indeed a matter of preference; the preference being that most left handed people shoot right handed.

    For that matter several of them do hold the bow wrong in other ways: arrow on wrong side of bow, not drawing to the correct position to aim etc. I know there are a lot of styles of bow shooting but every bow we see in the PHB is a European shortbow so it should all be pretty much the same.

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    Ettin in the Playground
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    Default Re: Random 4th Edition Artwork Nitpick (Because it's popular!)

    In any case, the OP's question was: does that bug anyone else? My response is: What, glowing swords? What the heck is wrong with that?

  29. - Top - End - #29

    Default Re: Random 4th Edition Artwork Nitpick (Because it's popular!)

    Quote Originally Posted by Kurald Galain View Post
    In most fantasy settings I'm aware of (Mage: the Ascension, and Amber, being two exceptions), there is very much an upper limit to what magic can actually do. "Magic can do whatever I say it does" is such a cop out, that having meaningful methods and limits to it tends to make for a better story.
    Not to mention, Technology, if sufficiently advanced, can go FARTHER than magic ever can. For example, autodeath from being hit by an unsustainable black hole, or moving millions of miles in seconds. Or brutal strength.

  30. - Top - End - #30
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    Default Re: Random 4th Edition Artwork Nitpick (Because it's popular!)

    The art in the PHB is too busy for me. Sort of reminiscent of the graphicals for a certain blizzard production.

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