Programmed Amnesia Ethics?

[Eurus]

Okay, so as I'm sure you've all seen, there's already a thread about the ethics of Charm Person. Not wanting to derail that thread and unsure if this particular topic had ever been brought up, I figured I'd start a new one. So...

Is using Programmed Amnesia on a sentient creature to rewrite its memories unethical? And if so (or if not), is this an absolute, or only in certain cases? Imagine, for instance, a Good-aligned Wizard reprogramming a defeated enemy to 'fix' whatever psychological issues caused him to be the way he is, probably by simply erasing them. The bandit had an abusive father, so he goes around robbing authority figures? Change his memories so that his father was a priest who died peacefully in his sleep, and convince the bandit that his childhood dream was to join the clergy. Swipe his gear, wake him up, and point him to the nearest city. He'll never know the difference, and probably be much happier for it.

Evil? I personally don't think so, but you are completely rewriting a person's memories to make them conform to your own ethical standards. It's for their own good - it'd be much easier to just kill them or turn them in for a reward, that's for sure - but you didn't exactly give them a choice. (Though if you did, that'd be a whole problem of its own... Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind in D20 form?) So. What's the ruling, here?

[SolkaTruesilver]

Don't Go There!! Turn Back! Turn Back!!!!

[elliott20]

DC already did that plotline in Identity Crisis, I think.

[Ziren]

It's for their own good - it'd be much easier to just kill them or turn them in for a reward, that's for sure - but you didn't exactly give them a choice. (Though if you did, that'd be a whole problem of its own... Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind in D20 form?) So. What's the ruling, here?

Virtually, you have killed him. You erased his personality and replaced it with another. The man that robbed you doesn't exist anymore, which is, quite frankly, indistinguishable from killing him. In the D&D-universe, where afterlife is a certainty, it's probably even worse.

[SolkaTruesilver]

Virtually, you have killed him. You erased his personality and replaced it with another. The man that robbed you doesn't exist anymore, which is, quite frankly, indistinguishable from killing him. In the D&D-universe, where afterlife is a certainty, it's probably even worse.

On the other hand, you created another being. A good one, to add.

[Kyeudo]

What you are realy asking here is "Does the ends justify the means?"

If you ask me, what your wizard did is mind rape on a grand scale. A person is the sum of their experiences and to change those experiences drasticly is to kill the person they once were.

Your wizard mentaly destroyed someone and from the wreckage created someone new. Is it wrong? Probably. Is it better than killing them? I don't know.

[quiet1mi]

sounds like a good epilogue to a campaign...

where they find the BBEG bandit from their earlier levels as a cleric with the with exalted feats.He can aid them to conquer the new BBEG but they will encounter clues to his past... can they keep their new powerful ally from changing into a new enemy...Will the BBEG find out about the Bandit and use the Original darkness in the Bandit's heart to posses him and cause strife and betrayal with in the party... If the Bandit finds out what the wizard did will he forgive him... or only create an instrument of destruction and tyranny for the BBEG to use as revenge... Only time will tell fellow adventurers as the ninja bard's time is up he he must leave.. *smoke bomb*

[Copacetic]

Ethically.... Yes. The Bandit was hurting other people, and would eventually be hunted down and killed by the local police anyway. Now he is much happier.

[Pronounceable]

Tricky. On the one hand, you've done worse than killing by completely destroying hisself. On the other hand, you have created a good person. Plus he was an evil bastard, though that itself couldn't justify this.

Verdict: I dunno.

[Eurus]

Hmm. The killing analogy is a mighty powerful one. But that assumes that a person really is nothing more than the sum of their experiences, which may or may not be true. In a world like D&D, where the concept of a 'soul' is not just religious or theoretical, but scientifically provable fact, that sounds even harder to determine. You're not necessarily erasing them, but changing their motivations, hopefully causing them to make different choices. So I guess that in and of itself is a quandary; are you killing off one being and replacing it with another, or just 'changing' one? And even if it is the former... Well, maybe the ends to justify the means. Sure seems to work for Paladins when they're single-handedly 'saving the world' by slaughtering anyone who pings as Evil on the Detect-O-Meter. I'm not sure if 'destroying' someone's consciousness is worse than killing them, either, even if you didn't reprogram them. After all, if he was evil, he probably wasn't headed for a very nice place anyway. Merciful?

[NecroRebel]

Tricky... As others have said, destroying the former person is actually more Evil than killing them in most settings where they are guarunteed to go to an afterlife that is suitable to them. In other words, you're literally robbing them of an eternity rather than just their current life.

On the other hand, you are creating a new person who will also have an afterlife that is suitable to them. So in essence you're giving someone else the original's eternity.

Hm. How are new souls handled? This may be relevant. If a brand new soul is created when a child is born, then the programmed amnesia is effectively identical to killing the father to birth the child. That isn't quite right, but it's close. If souls are constantly reincarnated, though, programmed amnesia is completely identical to forcing a reincarnation right then, but it otherwise changes nothing.

I'd have to say this use of PA is probably slightly Evil, except in a setting where reincarnation or oblivion is all that follows death. There are more Evil ways to use the spell, but even creating a Paladin from a Blackguard is still giving the Blackguard a fate much, much worse than death, which I feel cannot possibly be balanced by the potential Good the new person would cause.

[Azerian Kelimon]

Easy, It's a completely vile thing to do, no matter the end.

See, the best take on this subject is the one presented in A Clockwork Orange. Goodness must come from the person, not from an artificial alteration.

[Rutee]

The ethics of Programmed Amnesia? If you use it, you're almost definitely a disgusting person. About the only case I can see using it in would be on someone Dominated for months who's guilt ridden over whatever they've been doing.

[quiet1mi]

the who enchantment school is morally gray... especially that damn irresistible dance!

[Azerian Kelimon]

The ethics of Programmed Amnesia? If you use it, you're almost definitely a disgusting person. About the only case I can see using it in would be on someone Dominated for months who's guilt ridden over whatever they've been doing.

That might be the one and only good use. If they cannot overcome the guilt, and they WANT it (The key difference from other uses), then it would be a Good action.

[SolkaTruesilver]

oh, I think I know the Answer.

You will create a new person, off course, and that person will do good deeds for the rest of his life.

However, at his death, he will go to be Tried. But all magical effect affecting him will end, and he will revert to his older self. However, when he will be tried, his experiences will prove that he have been a "good" person.

It will end up having an evil person earning a place in Paradise, which, on the long run, is an incredible evil thing.

[Grey Paladin]

Good.

The ex-bandit is still the same sack of meat, now he's simply a helpful, happy, one that contributes to society and may touch and improve the lives of countless others instead of doing the opposite.

By killing him you have destroyed a single person, strengthened Evil's hold in reality by sending them another guy to be used as cannon fodder, and possibly saved a bunch of lives the bandit would have otherwise taken in the process.

By converting him, you have overwritten his perception, made him Exalted and happy instead of dead, strengthened the forces of Good in the universe, saved the lives he would've taken AND saved or at least massively improved a few others due to his volunteer work.


Will you sacrifice many to damn one to suffering? does your thirst for justice overrides your desire for the greater good?

[Azerian Kelimon]

Good.

The ex-bandit is still the same sack of meat, now he's simply a helpful, happy, one that contributes to society and may touch and improve the lives of countless others instead of doing the opposite.

By killing him you have destroyed a single person, strengthened Evil's hold in reality by sending them another guy to be used as cannon fodder, and possibly saved a bunch of lives the bandit would have otherwise taken in the process.

By converting him, you have overwritten his perception, made him Exalted and happy instead of dead, strengthened the forces of Good in the universe, saved the lives he would've taken AND saved or at least massively improved a few others due to his volunteer work.


Will you sacrifice many to damn one to suffering? does your thirst for justice overrides your desire for the greater good?

That is not greater good. Look at Mindrape.

Yeah, stamped Evil, and for good reason. Programmed Amnesia is only barely better. Goodness must come from the heart, not from magic.

[Roderick_BR]

DC already did that plotline in Identity Crisis, I think.

And Professor X did it a couple times to Magneto in several stories (including Ultimate universe) even before that

I'd say it's unethical... but that's as far as killing someone is. You are destroying a being to create another. It's the destroying part that is the problem.

[Grey Paladin]

So, because one's environment forced one to be evil to survive, unlike yours, you deny that person the possibility to be happy and wish to damn him to eternal torment in the reaches, bolstering the forces of evil, and sacrificing these he would save to boot, only so 'justice' is met?

Yeah, that sounds good.

Notice Sanctify The Wicked is labeled Exalted.

[Azerian Kelimon]

So, because one's environment forced one to be evil to survive, unlike yours, you deny that person the possibility to be happy and wish to damn him to eternal torment in the reaches, bolstering the forces of evil, and sacrificing these he would save to boot, only so 'justice' is met?

Yeah, that sounds good.

Notice Sanctify The Wicked is labeled Exalted.

Exalted is also a bunch of boloney. Notice how it treats CE as ultimate evil (When it is clearly stated in the PHB that the ultimate evil is NE) and LG as the ultimate good.

What you do is capture the bandit, not kill him. Then, you work to make him change his ways. Honestly, is it that hard a thing to do?

[Innis Cabal]

That is not greater good. Look at Mindrape.

Yeah, stamped Evil, and for good reason. Programmed Amnesia is only barely better. Goodness must come from the heart, not from magic.

But evil can come froms spells?

[Azerian Kelimon]

But evil can come froms spells?

Exactly. Few spells are truly good. Many spells are brutally evil, such as Avasculate, Mindrape, or the like. It's much easier to do evil than good, didn't you know that?

[Emperor Tippy]

It depends on the society and your perceptions. And use Mind Rape instead, it is better in every way.

[Grey Paladin]

Do not quote Book of Vile Darkness if you refuse to accept its counterpart.

As to doing it the good ol' way: Considering the number of Criminals in the world, and the fact the chance it'll reform him into a selfless creature incapable of evil is slim, yes.

[Azerian Kelimon]

Do not quote Book of Vile Darkness if you refuse to accept its counterpart.

As to doing it the good ol' way: Considering the number of Criminals in the world, and the fact the chance it'll reform him into a selfless creature incapable of evil is slim, yes.

Incapable of evil?




NOTHING is incapable of evil. "Good" is not "stupidly messianic". Showing the benefits of being a good guy compared to those of being a bad guy is usually enough if they are big. THAT is what you should aim for.

And no, I do not need to quote the BoVD, the thing that says "regards CE as most evil alignment" comes directly from the BoED. Do you see now WHY it is a bunch of crap?

[Grey Paladin]

Mindrape is from Book of Vile Darkness, you quoting its [Vile] tag yet refusing to notice Sanctify the Wicked's [Exalted] tag is odd.

You program the capability of evil out of him, the poor bastard is unable to do it as much as a fish is unable to fly.

In a perfect world, everyone would be Mindraped into such a state.

[Azerian Kelimon]

Mindrape is from Book of Vile Darkness, you quoting its [Vile] tag yet refusing to notice Sanctify the Wicked's [Exalted] tag is odd.

You program the capability of evil out of him, the poor bastard is unable to do it as much as a fish is unable to fly.

In a perfect world, everyone would be Mindraped into such a state.

In a perfect world, everyone is inherently good, not Mindraped.

And if you want, erase mention of Mindrape in my posts. The point still stands.

Really, if your perfect world is made up with mindraped losers, I bet you LOVE Brave New World. It's a word for word thing there.

And you'll notice how The Utopia is consistently noted around the world by most scholars as one of the most horrible futures of humanity.

[Emperor Tippy]

Mindrape is from Book of Vile Darkness, you quoting its [Vile] tag yet refusing to notice Sanctify the Wicked's [Exalted] tag is odd.

You program the capability of evil out of him, the poor bastard is unable to do it as much as a fish is unable to fly.

In a perfect world, everyone would be Mindraped into such a state.

Mindrape doesn't have a [vile] tag, just an [evil] tag.

[Emperor Tippy]

Hmm, Mindrape is actually one of the best spells for a justive system to use. You get all of the persons memories and knowledge, so you know what crimes they committed and what they didn't, and then you can reprogram them to be good, hardworking, members of society.

Almost assuredly Lawful Evil but still.