Opinions on 4ed Paladins

[Tough_Tonka]

I'm surprised that no one's mentioned the changes in the 4e paladins. I've heard a few threads on how wizards are now worthless because they are no longer better at everything than everyone, but still the core of the wizard is still there. They master the arcane arts and learn utility spells and combat spells.

Paladins on the other hand had a major face lift. They no longer have to be lawful good or only associate of people with people of similar alignments. They lost their traditional mounts and they had a fluff change that sources there powers from rituals rather than divine mandates.

So what are the peoples thoughts on the 4e paladins?

[Azerian Kelimon]

They're probably 4th's first true defenders.

See, Fighters ARE defenders too, but they have a secondary Striker trait (In fact, it seems that all of the classes have a primary and secondary role. Warlords are secondary defenders, Wizards secondary strikers, etc.). Paladins, meanwhile, are purely defensive, as their secondary trait is Leader. They buff up the allies and weaken enemies.

[RoboticSheeple]

Without the limits on alignment I've been thinking and realized something. I like how when a paladin falls they don't lose power anymore, but rather other members of the order come to hunt them down. I makes me think that a cool hook could be an evil paladin that falls to good and the PCs have to help defend.
It also means that a paladin can become a blackguard at anytime with a simple "That's it, I've had it with this goody goody act." (yes I realize alignment changes are a bit more involved but it's an abstraction)

But the most important change is that they are no longer immune to fear. Paladins are great but if I had a nickel for everytime one made a bad decision from being unable to assess risk properly then well, you get the idea.

[Prophaniti]

Meh. Sounds like they just made changes that everyone's been using for a long time. At least, I changed paladins in my campaigns to allow more alignments (I allow any alignment with no neutral component) a long time ago. This is mostly to help minimize the unfortunate Lawful Stupid take that many people, including some I play with, attach to paladins. As to power source, that's entirely mutable but I would keep mine with a divine source just like clerics.

Actually, my current project with paladins is making them into a PrC for one of my campaign worlds. Paladin is merely a title assigned by some of the larger and more organized churches (a return to the original source of the word) to some of its agents, people who roam around their territory enforcing doctrine, judging disputes, and driving off the worst of the heretics and rivals.

Someone who wanted to start their character as a holy warrior would just run a fighter with strong convictions or a cleric who tends to resort to violence more often.

[Charity]

They're probably 4th's first true defenders.

See, Fighters ARE defenders too, but they have a secondary Striker trait (In fact, it seems that all of the classes have a primary and secondary role. Warlords are secondary defenders, Wizards secondary strikers, etc.). Paladins, meanwhile, are purely defensive, as their secondary trait is Leader. They buff up the allies and weaken enemies.

Yeah i would agree with this.
The classes I've looked at in detail all seem to have this secondary role hidden among their powers.
Paladin seems to be Defender/Leader, and with multiclassing you can either ramp up the Leader side with cleric or warlord or add something new, say striker with warlock or rogue (ranger won't work as well due to having very limited stat overlap, IMO)

[Tough_Tonka]

In regards to playability I'd say 4e paladins are an improvement, along with Rangers (who are now are par with other classes). Its nice to see WotC finally responded to the glaring problems of this class in regards to working well with others.

[Roderick_BR]

Actually, my current project with paladins is making them into a PrC for one of my campaign worlds. Paladin is merely a title assigned by some of the larger and more organized churches (a return to the original source of the word) to some of its agents, people who roam around their territory enforcing doctrine, judging disputes, and driving off the worst of the heretics and rivals.

Someone who wanted to start their character as a holy warrior would just run a fighter with strong convictions or a cleric who tends to resort to violence more often.

I've been using paladins like that, using some variant rules. While I love playing paladins, I think they are too much role-specific, so they work better as a in-game title, or PrC. It's better to earn the title than start with it at 1st level.

[JaxGaret]

They took the 3e Paladin and Crusader, threw them both in a blender, added some new 4e mechanics, and voila, the 4e Paladin.

The Warlord got the bits of the Crusader that the Paladin didn't get.

[Nikolai_II]

Actually, my current project with paladins is making them into a PrC for one of my campaign worlds. Paladin is merely a title assigned by some of the larger and more organized churches (a return to the original source of the word) to some of its agents, people who roam around their territory enforcing doctrine, judging disputes, and driving off the worst of the heretics and rivals.

Someone who wanted to start their character as a holy warrior would just run a fighter with strong convictions or a cleric who tends to resort to violence more often.

Been there, done that, found it in the Unearthed Arcana

[JaxGaret]

Been there, done that, found it in the Unearthed Arcana

You could link to it, you know.

Prestige Paladin

[Tough_Tonka]

They took the 3e Paladin and Crusader, threw them both in a blender, added some new 4e mechanics, and voila, the 4e Paladin.

The Warlord got the bits of the Crusader that the Paladin didn't get.

I didn't think about that, but yeah I guess that one of those examples of ToB influence on 4e.

[Aquillion]

Overall it's pretty good, but one thing I really dislike:

They made Paladins linked to gods and religion. I hate that. One of the things I always liked about Paladins was that, per RAW in the default setting, they and their powers are not linked to a specific religion or deity (although many choose to be religious.) Instead, their powers came from a non-denominational "call", which was universal to the point where the PHB specifically said that paladins from different cultures and religions would nonetheless instantly recognize each other as paladins and kindred spirits.

I liked the idea of the Call, too, even if so many people ignored it -- the idea that an ordinary person suddenly has a moment of revelation that turns them into a holy warrior for justice.

The fluff for 3rd edition Paladins was actually closer to World of Darkness Hunters than cleric-fighters; they're not church templars or clerical soldiers, but ordinery people who suddenly heeded The Call to fight evil and defend justice. More like a certain kind of cowboy than anything else, really.

However, this background fluff also never really matched with their alignment... they should have been 'any good' (in fact, chaotic good paladins would have made a great deal of sense, since they're officially not beholden to any institution.) And honestly, how many people even noticed it? Almost everyone seemed to play them as cleric + sword, and most settings ignored the PHB and had their powers come directly from their deity like a cleric.

Having it invested in them in a ritual is all right, but I like the idea of it coming to them in a sudden unexpected burst of revelation that turns them into a Paladin.

(I don't have anything against the idea of a religious warrior, of course -- but that's what Clerics were for. I thought that this difference in fluff made Paladins more distinct, instead of their just being a Cleric / Fighter subclass or someone whose fluff was just "cleric with a sword.")

[EvilElitest]

ironically, Paladins in 3E, through i admit it took maybe half a dozen freaking books, were actually very fleshed out. However now they kinda become, crusaders or knights.
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