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    Oddly Named Sequel

    Last time, we were apparently talking about Genshiken and (for some reason) Disgaea 2, as well as the fact that manga tends to be more blatant in violence and sexual content than anime. Meanwhile, I decided to pre-empt take Gorbash's modly powers excellent suggestion and start a sequel thread.

    It could be worse. I could have started a parallel universe and exiled him to
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    a private school about half a mile away. Milwaukee. Lamest banishment ever.
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    I gotta say, I approve very much of your choice of title for the new thread, Nerdo .

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    It's weird, before I was saying that it's seinen if it's based on a light novel, then I read this today: "An anime adaptation has been decided for Kamachika Kazuma’s fantasy shounen series, “To Aru Majutsu no Index.” The announcement comes from the obi strip of the 16th volume release of the light novel — on sale June 10th." Well, whatever.
    My avatar is from Wanko to Kurusou.

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    So, in reading up on Gundam continuities, I've gotta say I'm disappointed in the mathematical literacy of otaku that it's not called Universal Quantifier Gundam. Or at least For All Gundam, ...
    Last edited by kamikasei; 2008-06-05 at 01:32 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Blue Paladin View Post
    The same could be said of Bastard!! Both series started in Shonen Jump, and got moved to Ultra Jump. I think if you spend so long in Shonen Jump, your target audience just keeps on getting older and older until you're seinen by default. Although Bastard!! cheats by advancing one chapter every six months. If that fast...
    I guess that makes sense. The alternative is to assume you lose your audience every year and can therefore get away with repeating stories, which is as far as I know an old American thing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Blue Paladin View Post
    Drawback: Oh!Great can't write for crap. He starts out with a good idea, but the longer it goes, the more muddled it gets. I call it Bastard!! syndrome, and he's got it in spades. Tenjou Tenge took a few years to get through a flashback, and by the time it was done, I'd forgotten about the original main characters and what they were doing. The next five volumes were all about fighting other people for nebulously defined reasons. Also, mother angst! My friend reports that Air Gear has not (yet) suffered this decline.
    So so true.

    Quote Originally Posted by Blue Paladin View Post
    Sorry for the delay! Didn't think my opinion would carry so much weight...
    Never underestimate the power of showing up out of no where and sounding like you know stuff.

    Quote Originally Posted by bluish_wolf View Post
    It's weird, before I was saying that it's seinen if it's based on a light novel
    Which really isn't true, since light novels are categorised in the same way as manga and seinen shows can be based off real novels. Incidentally, most novel based anime are actually at the young end of shoujo, with many classic childrens books such Daddy-Long-Legs and Anne of Green Gables being having been adapted in the 70s.
    "that nighted, penguin-fringed abyss" - At The Mountains of Madness, H.P. Lovecraft

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    Quote Originally Posted by kamikasei View Post
    So, in reading up on Gundam continuities, I've gotta say I'm disappointed in the mathematical literacy of otaku that it's not called Universal Quantifier Gundam. Or at least For All Gundam, ...
    "For All Gundam" is technically what it means, supposedly, but for some reason "Turn A" is the title used.
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    Clearly, it's called A's because that's the breast size of the majority of the characters.
    My avatar is from Wanko to Kurusou.

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    Well, that's an unfair statement given that 80% of the named characters are under ten. Signum, at least, would like to take exception to that.
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    Indeed. If it had been StrikerS that was named A's, on the other hand, Bluish would probably have been correct

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    Quote Originally Posted by Blue Paladin View Post
    Agreed, the concept does sound good. Unfortunately, the panty shots and torn clothes happen all the time, regardless of plot. It steps over the line into "gratuitous", goes down the block, and moves into a house with a 30-year mortgage. It's there to stay.

    Sorry for the delay! Didn't think my opinion would carry so much weight... But yes, it was a very cool idea, and yes, it got very killed. I try to ignore the bouncing jubblies and gratuitous nekkid, but the sheer volume of both makes it difficult. The manga I think has cooler "historical" flashbacks, where it gives a splash page in the old chinese art style (vaguely like this) and some info on the character as he was in the old days (although sometimes the character is distorted even further from the already historically inaccurate Romance of the Three Kingdoms version). The (literally) bloodthirsty version of Guan Yu was pretty awesome...

    I do wish they'd focus more on the whole accepting/defying one's fate aspect, instead of having yet another character focus on Liu Bei's boobs. The random macguffin tie-ins (Three Treasures, the Swords) would be more interesting if those plots actually went anywhere... Maybe they actually matter in the later books; I haven't gotten anything new since 2006 :(

    1) Not sure... But it definitely aired on AT-X, a cable/satellite network, so it probably got relaxed rules for nudity etc.
    2) Fan service.
    3) Fan service. IC, they can kill pretty much anyone who's a lower rank Toushi by blinking anyway. I guess it's not that big a deal to them...
    .
    Yes, I know it's for Fan service, but girls, regardless of whether or not they're good fighters, shouldn't just let others grope them. At least, they usually don't. And I fail to see a good IC reason for skirts that short in a school uniform.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Frosty View Post
    Yes, I know it's for Fan service, but girls, regardless of whether or not they're good fighters, shouldn't just let others grope them. At least, they usually don't.
    They don't if the series in question actually has any pretense at quality. The only way to appreciate that kind of thing is to put your brain cells into stasis.

    Quote Originally Posted by Frosty View Post
    And I fail to see a good IC reason for skirts that short in a school uniform.
    It's an exageration, but so are eyes that take up 40% of the head, each.
    "that nighted, penguin-fringed abyss" - At The Mountains of Madness, H.P. Lovecraft

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    Quote Originally Posted by Closet_Skeleton View Post
    They don't if the series in question actually has any pretense at quality. The only way to appreciate that kind of thing is to put your brain cells into stasis.
    Well, Rei from Evangelion doesn't mind that much either, but Rei is...special.

    Quote Originally Posted by Closet_Skeleton View Post
    It's an exageration, but so are eyes that take up 40% of the head, each.
    But it's a bit much though. I mean, have we even had a panty shot yet in TMoHS? Plenty of boob shots sure, but that's all on Mikuru.

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    I have a question about Genshiken. Can anybody explain why the plan made by president of the titular group actually worked in episode 5?

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    I know about his surveillance of the entire university and about how he learned about the student council vice-president's athlete's foot. What i am less certain about is why athlete's foot is something to use for blackmail or even how the blackmail managed to work out without any kind of repercussions. Nor can i see how making the student council president actually admit his feelings for the vice-president would further the goal of securing the continued existence of Genshiken. I feel like i missed something, but i obviously don't know what. I hope some of you can help me with this.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Frosty View Post
    But it's a bit much though. I mean, have we even had a panty shot yet in TMoHS? Plenty of boob shots sure, but that's all on Mikuru.
    Yell, I'll let you onto a little secret.

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    That's because 'TMoHS' is actually good and doesn't need panty shots to make up for it's crapness.
    "that nighted, penguin-fringed abyss" - At The Mountains of Madness, H.P. Lovecraft

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    Quote Originally Posted by Frosty View Post
    Yes, I know it's for Fan service, but girls, regardless of whether or not they're good fighters, shouldn't just let others grope them. At least, they usually don't. And I fail to see a good IC reason for skirts that short in a school uniform.
    Again, that one was /slightly/ justified in that Taishi Ci is, like almost every other female, attracted to Gao Shun. Though it might happen more later without that much justification.

    Also I need to see Nanoha, even if it seinen rather then shoujo. Blah, I never hear about shoujo series since I'm too lazy to do my own looking.. XD

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    Quote Originally Posted by Closet_Skeleton View Post
    Yell, I'll let you onto a little secret.

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    That's because 'TMoHS' is actually good and doesn't need panty shots to make up for it's crapness.
    Still, I can't help but feel that there was so much potential with the premise and they could've done so much better and not needed panty shots. Unlike Rutee, who feels that panty shots ruined the series (I think she thinks that anyways), I feel like the series wasn't done well regardless of panty shots (well, based on like the 3 episodes I've seen so far)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rutee View Post
    Again, that one was /slightly/ justified in that Taishi Ci is, like almost every other female, attracted to Gao Shun. Though it might happen more later without that much justification.
    Is Taishi Ci the girl with the eye-patch?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Frosty View Post
    Is Taishi Ci the girl with the eye-patch?
    Yeah. That's the one I'm talking about. Oh, right, you saw ep 9, and I stopped after 3... It's so awful when I can't watch a series past episode 3, yanno? XD

    And seriously, I don't even mind fanservice on a conceptual level. I just can't stand the sheer amount of it there.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Frosty View Post
    But it's a bit much though. I mean, have we even had a panty shot yet in TMoHS? Plenty of boob shots sure, but that's all on Mikuru.
    Kyoto Animation is apparently well known for their Magic Skirts, actually. Apparently, some animators consider panty shots cheap and exploitive, whereas simple Gainaxing and cleavage-fest clothing is Good Clean Fun, which makes some degree of sense.

    Also one of the things I like about Nanoha: as far as I can tell, one panty shot in the whole franchise. Not that there's not other kinds of disconcerting lolicon fanservice...up to and including gaussian-blurred-to-unrecognizability preteens...yeah, I don't like those transformation sequences, actually.
    Last edited by Nerd-o-rama; 2008-06-05 at 04:39 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Terraoblivion View Post
    I have a question about Genshiken. Can anybody explain why the plan made by president of the titular group actually worked in episode 5?

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    I know about his surveillance of the entire university and about how he learned about the student council vice-president's athlete's foot. What i am less certain about is why athlete's foot is something to use for blackmail or even how the blackmail managed to work out without any kind of repercussions. Nor can i see how making the student council president actually admit his feelings for the vice-president would further the goal of securing the continued existence of Genshiken. I feel like i missed something, but i obviously don't know what. I hope some of you can help me with this.
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    I bet it's cultural. We western people don't really think about it that way, but for the Japanese, especially Japanese women, being exposed about having athlete's foot is such a public shame that the vice-president would rather let Genshiken exist than to let everyone know. Also, when the president admitted his feelings to her, despite knowing of the athlete's foot, then she had a sudden realization. Because, let's face it - she wanted Genshiken canceled because it was full of geeks, "weirdos". But when he accepted her even though she was an athlete's foot "weirdo", she had a change of mind. The event when her favorite dish was canceled from the cafe because almost no one wanted it earlier had some impact too, I guess.


    But it's all pure speculation on my part. That is, that's how I understood it. Alternative theory: The first Genshiken president has mind control eyes. Like in Code Geass.

    And yes, Genshiken characters are extremely likable (even that jerk Saki) and realistic. I'm not a shipper usually, but I fully support the Ohno/Tanaka relationship! As for realistic part - in high school I knew a guy who was just like Kucchi. Scary, huh?
    Last edited by Cubey; 2008-06-05 at 04:40 PM.

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    I see. That explanation makes sense, though it is so far from anything i am used to that it didn't occur to me at all.

    As for the characters being likable then i have to agree. Actually Saki, despite being a jerk, is probably the one i like the most. She has a spine unlike the rest and i cannot help but feel intensely sorry for her with the way Kohsaka treats her without even realizing that he is doing anything wrong. There is one character without redeeming features, at least in the first six episodes, though. That jerk from the manga club. So incredibly unpleasant a man.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nerd-o-rama View Post
    Kyoto Animation is apparently well known for their Magic Skirts, actually. Apparently, some animators consider panty shots cheap and exploitive, whereas simple Gainaxing and cleavage-fest clothing is Good Clean Fun, which makes some degree of sense.
    I find it funny "Gainax" is synonymous with "bouncy breasts"

    That said, I find panty shots and exposes breasts to be about the same level.

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    Oh yeah, Hanaguro. I forgot to mention that I meant all the Genshiken people are sympathetic - he's a total jerkarse. Wait... he theoretically IS in Genshiken, even if only as a honorary member. Argh, confusing myself!

    Anyway, if it helps any, he'll get his comeuppance. Eventually. Hope that's not a spoiler.

    EDIT: Also, it seems that it's my opinion only, but Madarame is as much of a Woobie as you can have with a guy who doesn't really experience anything THAT horrible during the whole series.
    Last edited by Cubey; 2008-06-05 at 04:55 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Frosty View Post
    I find it funny "Gainax" is synonymous with "bouncy breasts"

    That said, I find panty shots and exposes breasts to be about the same level.
    Well, my ingrained American cultural standards tell me that mostly-clothed female breasts are more acceptable than mostly-clothed female butt. In addition, there's something inherently more exploitive about an upskirt shot, because you're not supposed to look up a skirt, whereas people are fully aware that their chest is the first or second thing others are going to look at, and dress accordingly. Usually.
    Last edited by Nerd-o-rama; 2008-06-05 at 05:13 PM.
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    Yeah. The non-Genshiken people are much more unpleasant, with Hanaguro and Sasahara's sister as the most obvious examples. I am not sure i would call the blackmailing first Genshiken president a very nice person either, but i haven't seen much of the show yet so he might turn out to be more sympathetic than he has seemed so far.

    Madarama doesn't seem too much like a woobie to me so far, though he is probably the Genshiken member who has the greatest chance of growing up to become extremely lonely. He just has somewhat of an air of patheticness to him. And there was the bit with him hurting his arm at Comiket.

    And Nerdo pretty much explained exactly why gainaxing is generally more acceptable than panty shots. Also it is generally less contrived why it should happen than a panty shot is.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Frosty View Post
    Still, I can't help but feel that there was so much potential with the premise and they could've done so much better and not needed panty shots.
    Except that in this case, they is probably one guy, the mangaka. To be honest, there's only so much you should do to deviate from the source material.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nerd-o-rama View Post
    Also one of the things I like about Nanoha: as far as I can tell, one panty shot in the whole franchise. Not that there's not other kinds of disconcerting lolicon fanservice...up to and including gaussian-blurred-to-unrecognizability preteens...yeah, I don't like those transformation sequences, actually.
    They don't use the transformation sequences more than once do they?

    As far as I can see there are only three reasons to like Nanoha:

    1. The weapons.
    2. The LesYay.
    3. The SS Uniforms.

    The later two only really being in StrikerS, which I gave up on because two seasons of Nanoha were enough. Nanoha is a lot better than it could be, but it's still a sick lolicon show at heart.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nerd-o-rama View Post
    Well, my ingrained American cultural standards
    I'm glad I'm not American.

    Stupid rant:

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    I can never understand the aversion to nipples in censorship. As though one female nipple would bring down western civilisation. To the point that most fanservice in American comics can get away with showing almost the entire breast but are okay because you can't see the nipples. This usually ends up with characters having what some poster on a worse online continuity refered to as 'ninja nipples', where as long as something is covering the breast, the nipple is assumed to be under it, even when it is anatomically impossible for the object to hide said nipple.
    Last edited by Closet_Skeleton; 2008-06-05 at 05:22 PM.
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    In my opinion, pantyshots appeal to some viewers due to the fact that normally you couldn't see it, and thus have an air of mystery and forbidden fruit feel to it. I believe it has some similarities of the idea that having people being more sexually attractive when wearing clothes than not.

    Quote Originally Posted by Closet_Skeleton
    The later two only really being in StrikerS, which I gave up on because two seasons of Nanoha were enough. Nanoha is a lot better than it could be, but it's still a sick lolicon show at heart.
    It's a little harsh calling it a sick lolicon show. Certainly, it has a bit of that vibe, but I seriously don't believe the majority of the show's fans are anywhere close to being lolicons. Yes, there are serious amounts of adult doujins produced for the show, and the targetted demographic is indeed on the male population. But really, if there are that many fans for the show, we can safely make the assumption that either there are plenty of viewers that likes it for the non-loli elements, unless there is a huge latent lolicon population (which is not the fault of the show anyways). You might be able to see only 3 reasons, but some others might be able to see it differently.

    I personally haven't watched Nanoha, but claiming it as a lolicon show is like claiming shows with heavy moe elements as chauvanist. Or Yuri shows purely about Lesbianism.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Closet_Skeleton View Post
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    I can never understand the aversion to nipples in censorship. As though one female nipple would bring down western civilisation. To the point that most fanservice in American comics can get away with showing almost the entire breast but are okay because you can't see the nipples. This usually ends up with characters having what some poster on a worse online continuity refered to as 'ninja nipples', where as long as something is covering the breast, the nipple is assumed to be under it, even when it is anatomically impossible for the object to hide said nipple.
    If you think that's bad, half the time there's a female in anime going topless, the nipples are simply not drawn. Not hidden behind something, just not there. It's kind of freaky really.
    Last edited by Gorbash Kazdar; 2008-06-05 at 05:44 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nerd-o-rama View Post
    Well, my ingrained American cultural standards tell me that mostly-clothed female breasts are more acceptable than mostly-clothed female butt. In addition, there's something inherently more exploitive about an upskirt shot, because you're not supposed to look up a skirt, whereas people are fully aware that their chest is the first or second thing others are going to look at, and dress accordingly. Usually.
    In my opinion, panty shorts are only dirty if you can see the girly parts under the fabric. Otherwise, it's just underwear. Nothing worse than a bathing suit.

    It's a little harsh calling it a sick lolicon show. Certainly, it has a bit of that vibe, but I seriously don't believe the majority of the show's fans are anywhere close to being lolicons. Yes, there are serious amounts of adult doujins produced for the show, and the targetted demographic is indeed on the male population. But really, if there are that many fans for the show, we can safely make the assumption that either there are plenty of viewers that likes it for the non-loli elements, unless there is a huge latent lolicon population (which is not the fault of the show anyways). You might be able to see only 3 reasons, but some others might be able to see it differently.
    You do know that Nanoha was based an an eroge series, right? Triangle Heart.
    Last edited by bluish_wolf; 2008-06-05 at 05:55 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Echowinds View Post
    It's a little harsh calling it a sick lolicon show.
    Yes, I was being expecially harsh.

    Quote Originally Posted by Echowinds View Post
    Certainly, it has a bit of that vibe, but I seriously don't believe the majority of the show's fans are anywhere close to being lolicons.
    I'm sure most people are just in it for the pretty light show. Also, the aformentioned LesYay, military uniforms and weapons.

    Quote Originally Posted by Echowinds View Post
    You might be able to see only 3 reasons, but some others might be able to see it differently.
    There are some people with extremely bizzare taste.

    Quote Originally Posted by Echowinds View Post
    I personally haven't watched Nanoha, but claiming it as a lolicon show is like claiming shows with heavy moe elements as chauvanist. Or Yuri shows purely about Lesbianism.
    You should probably look up what chauvanism means, because it's unlikely that it means what you think it means. Still, the idea that I might find a show to be about die hard commitment to the Napoleonic regime because it uses vulnerable women for sex appeal is moderately humorous.

    Yuri has an exploitation genre is entirely about lesbianism, individual yuri shows may aim higher than that however.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gorbash Kazdar View Post
    If you think that's bad, half the time there's a female in anime going topless, the nipples are simply not drawn. Not hidden behind something, just not there. It's kind of freaky really.
    I'm not entirely sure that at least one member of the animation team didn't draw them in, even if they were absent from the final broadcast.

    Quote Originally Posted by bluish_wolf View Post
    You do know that Nanoha was based an an eroge series, right? Triangle Heart.
    More of a spin off. In fact, it's like Pretty Sammy in that it's a magical girl show based off a minor character from an established series. The main differance being that Pretty Sammy never over-took Tenchi Muyo's existance like Nanoha has dwarfed Triangle Hearts.
    Last edited by Closet_Skeleton; 2008-06-05 at 06:07 PM.
    "that nighted, penguin-fringed abyss" - At The Mountains of Madness, H.P. Lovecraft

    When a man decides another's future behind his back, it is a conspiracy. When a god does it, it's destiny.


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