4e Fighter: Exceeding expectations?

[Azerian Kelimon]

Looking at the level 29 Fighter powers, I noticed storm of destruction. Potentially 10 W + 2STR, it does some scary damage.

Now, just for fun, I decided to compare it to Assasin's point, the most damaging Rogue power. I used a human to run the calculations.

Assuming the use of, say, a maul, an 18 +2 racial bonus in STR and every possible boost put into STR, and taking average from each dice, and assuming the two attacks land (Very likely), Storm of Destruction deals 3.5*20+18= 88 damage, not taking into account magic weapon boosts or other things that tip the scales in favor of the fighter.

Now, Assasins point, assuming the use of a crossbow or rapier, maxed dex, averages, SA with brutal scoundrel and maxed STR, etc., deals 4.5*17+17=93.5 damage, 94 rounding up. Not applying any bonus aside from stats and Backstabber for the rogue, the fighter is only 6 points below the rogue in damage dealt. Adding a variety of bonuses, like PA, enhancements, etc, the figher outperforms the rogue, and it only gets worse if the rogue didn't use a crossbow or rapier. Am I missing something, or is the Fighter, who is supposed to have a secondary striker role, beating the rogue in damage when their best attacks are compared? Please, enlighten me, fellow playgrounders.

[Yakk]

Attacks that target two opponents are discounted, as far as I can tell.

Assuming Fighter has 50-50 chance to hit, and both have combat advantage, and both have 19-20 crits...

Storm: (5[W=7]+Str+OBonus)*2* .70 + (5[W=12]+Str+OBonus+Crit)*2*.1 = 61 + (Str+OBonus)*1.6 + Crit*.2

Assasin: (7[W=4.5]+Dex+OBonus+45 Sneak+Str*2)*.725 + (7*[W=8]+Dex+OBonus+45 Sneak+Str*2+Crit*2)*.1

= 65.5625 + 0.825 Dex + 1.65 * Str + OBonus*0.825 + Crit * .2

Subtract Assasin-Storm:
= 22.5/40 + Str*2/40 + Dex*33/40 - 31/40 * OBonus
= [22.5 + Str*2 + Dex*33 - 31*OBonus]

which gives you the point at which the Fighter's damage matches the Rogue's damage.

However, I also presumed equal strength on the Rogue as the Fighter. Odds are the Rogue will have about +2 less strength, costing him 66/40 damage.

= [-25.5 + Dex*33 - 31*OBonus] /40
Dex @ +9:
= [ 271.5 - 31*OBonus ] / 40
At +8.76 other damage bonus (for both Rogue and Fighter), fighter total damage passes Rogue.

On the other hand, the Fighter is hitting two targets. That means the Fighter is dividing his damage, and not getting a target dead dead dead so it stops killing the party.

But there does seem to be a tendency not to compensate Rogue weapon abilities for being light blade only. ...

Oh, and I forgot that Fighter Weapon Talent will make up for the Rogue weapon's superior accuracy. Sigh.

[Azerian Kelimon]

Of course, the calculations I did discounted ANY kind of extra damage. Factoring in a +6 weapon, that's an extra 6 points in damage, putting the fighter on par with the rogue if he hits with the two attacks. Adding PA gives you a +12 benefit over the rogue, even being gracious enough to give the rogue that same feat.

Really, it seems like someone screwed up with the capstones. The TWF ranger having his capstone at level 15, the fighter doing more damage...what's next, the palading causing status effects better than the warlock?

[Crow]

How does Power Attack give you +12 damage?

[Azerian Kelimon]

How does Power Attack give you +12 damage?

Not twelve, eighteen. It's twelve over what a melee rogue with PA would get.

See, Storm of destruction lets you make two attacks. If you PA both of them, you get 9 extra damage for each. 9 + 9 = 18 extra damage.

[Spiryt]

Are rogues supposed to do more damage? What with being skilled/sneaky/streetwise bandite, svout or anything?

If dealing damage is now only function of a class that is not in fact a warrior in concept, then that edition looks more and more sorry.

[Sequinox]

One day and we already have arguments over the best classes. Sheesh.

No, im jking, that is a pretty good pont. I'm not playing rogue! Paladin, actually. When my 4e ships in.

[Azerian Kelimon]

Are rogues supposed to do more damage? What with being skilled/sneaky/streetwise bandite, svout or anything?

If dealing damage is now only function of a class that is not in fact a warrior in concept, then that edition looks more and more sorry.

You didn't get the role memo? Rogues, rangers and warlocks are supposed to be the big damage dealers. Skills deal with the things you mention. So yeah, get the books before making stupid decisions.

[Abardam]

Are rogues supposed to do more damage? What with being skilled/sneaky/streetwise bandite, svout or anything?

If dealing damage is now only function of a class that is not in fact a warrior in concept, then that edition looks more and more sorry.

Rogues are "Strikers," which I suppose could mean that they deal more damage, but I guess it could also mean they're better at getting into positions to damage (utilities and such), or they could deal a higher amount of damage in less time.

I don't have the PH though so I don't know.

[Yakk]

Power attack -- taking a -2 to hit (about 20% less connects) in exchange for a mere +9 to damage on a hit? Barring a target you are nearly guaranteed to hit, it isn't that good of a choice.

The core of the point remains -- in 4e, you get a discount for being forced to hit two different targets. Because damage concentrated on one target kills the target, while damage spread over multiple targets leaves them damaging you.

So the Rogue ability remains superior to the Fighter ability at killing stuff dead -- except, the Fighter ability lets them mark two opponents, aiding the Fighter at defending.

[Azerian Kelimon]

Power attack -- taking a -2 to hit (about 20% less connects) in exchange for a mere +9 to damage on a hit? Barring a target you are nearly guaranteed to hit, it isn't that good of a choice.

The core of the point remains -- in 4e, you get a discount for being forced to hit two different targets. Because damage concentrated on one target kills the target, while damage spread over multiple targets leaves them damaging you.

So the Rogue ability remains superior to the Fighter ability at killing stuff dead -- except, the Fighter ability lets them mark two opponents, aiding the Fighter at defending.

What? You can use two attacks to hit the same target. It says one OR two targets.

As for PA, hey, that's what Action surge and it's ilk are for. Storm of destruction is so easy to combo for gross damage it's not funny.

[Little_Rudo]

Strikers are lightly-armored fighters who get in, deal a load of damage, and get out. They have the highest damage output, but they also go down very fast, so they need to be mobile and careful not to get caught in a group of enemies.

The mechanical embodiment of the Fragile Speedster

EDIT: At least, this is the concept. I'm not nearly as mechanically minded as the people who are already posting in this topic, so I'll let them decide if it holds true.

[Azerian Kelimon]

Strikers are lightly-armored fighters who get in, deal a load of damage, and get out. They have the highest damage output, but they also go down very fast, so they need to be mobile and careful not to get caught in a group of enemies.

The mechanical embodiment of the Fragile Speedster

EDIT: At least, this is the concept. I'm not nearly as mechanically minded as the people who are already posting in this topic, so I'll let them decide if it holds true.

Doesn't seem so. If the rogue capstone has to bow down before the fighter capstone, the whole premise is invalidated. At level 15, there's also an early version with Dragon's Fangs. No rogue power approaches the damage that one does (Slaying strike almost goes to that level, but it only beats the fangs if it crits).

[JaxGaret]

The Fighter's secondary role is to be a Striker, they're Defender/Strikers, so it's not surprising that they come close to the Rogue in damage-dealing potential.

The Rogue's secondary role(s) is to be a Controller and Skillmonkey, both of which it does much better than the Fighter.

[Azerian Kelimon]

The Fighter's secondary role is to be a Striker, they're Defender/Strikers, so it's not surprising that they come close to the Rogue in damage-dealing potential.

The Rogue's secondary role(s) is to be a Controller and Skillmonkey, both of which it does much better than the Fighter.

Of course, but the problem is not coming close, but outright BEATING the rogue in his own game.

[JaxGaret]

Of course, but the problem is not coming close, but outright BEATING the rogue in his own game.

The Backstabber feat adds +5 to the Rogue's SA damage.

Edit later for more details.

Did you include the fact that Assassin's Point doubles SA damage? That's an extra 22.5 damage.

[Azerian Kelimon]

You left out Sneak Attack in the OP.

That's an average of 22.5 damage with Backstabber.

No, I added it. Look up the part that says 4.5*17. The 10 comes from the doubled SA damage, and the 7 comes from the 7 W assasin's point gives. So yes, the fighter comes out on top once you apply bonuses.

Edit: And backstabber was included. Else, it was 4.5*7 + 3.5*10.

[JaxGaret]

No, I added it. Look up the part that says 4.5*17. The 10 comes from the doubled SA damage, and the 7 comes from the 7 W assasin's point gives. So yes, the fighter comes out on top once you apply bonuses.

Edit: And backstabber was included. Else, it was 4.5*7 + 3.5*10.

Okay, gotcha. I didn't see that you included the math.

[JaxGaret]

Assassin's Point doubling Crit damage adds ~ 5% to the total average damage, no?

A little less than that, really. About 3% or 4%.

EDIT: With a 19-20 crit feat, that gets upped to about a 7-8% increase in overall damage.

Also, Storm of Destruction only works against 2 targets. You only deal half damage if you have but one enemy to target.

The Rogue still comes out way ahead in single-target damage production, which is the Striker's role.

[JaxGaret]

No Mercy is really a better straight-up power to compare to Assassin's Point. It deals about 2/3rds of the damage, but it is Reliable, meaning that if you miss, you don't lose that Daily power slot, which is huge.

[Pyroconstruct]

What? You can use two attacks to hit the same target. It says one OR two targets.

No. Read the ability. Attack: Strength vs. AC, one attack per target.

Dragon's Fangs, however, allows you to put both attacks on one target.

Also, 4e power attack is not like 3.5 power attack where you can nearly always do it. It may still be worth having (simply because you'll probably have more feats than worthwhile ones to take), but you only want to use it against monsters that have been debuffed, or when you get a buff like Righteous Brand or Good Omens against a low-AC creature that puts your to-hit roll to more than the monster's AC.

[Azerian Kelimon]

Now, let me try my hand at making a twinked fighter and rogue and we'll see how it works out in the end.

Note: Both the rogue and the fighter are humans, and we assume every attack hits, as I'm looking at potential damage.

Lesse...

Fighter:

3.5*20+18 from STR+18 from PA+12 from a magic weapon (Ignoring weapon powers)+6 from weapon focus = 124 damage.

Rogue:

4.5*17+9 from DEX+7 from STR (using 24 point buy)+6 from a magic weapon+3 from weapon focus =101.5 damage, 102 rounding up.

[Orak]

The point that you are missing is that the rogue excels in single target damage. The warriors damage is situational based on there being the correct setup of opponents.

It is optimal to kill one target a time quickly so that you quickly eliminate opponents.

If you are to compare multiple opponent damage then the mage or warlock with area affect spells easily trumps the rogue or warrior for damage.

Also with the new game the opponents have a ton of hit points. Don't expect to be one shotting anything but minions for some time to come. So causing medium damage to a few opponents is not nearly as useful as causing maximum damage to one target.

Oh and I played this past wednesday. I am running the warrior. Lots of fun but hard to play in an open area, cause it is harder to protect your group when you have opponents coming from multiple areas (outdoor encounter of goblins). Can't wait to get into an actual dungeon, that is where the warrior will shine.

[Azerian Kelimon]

No. Read the ability. Attack: Strength vs. AC, one attack per target.

Dragon's Fangs, however, allows you to put both attacks on one target.

Also, 4e power attack is not like 3.5 power attack where you can nearly always do it. It may still be worth having (simply because you'll probably have more feats than worthwhile ones to take), but you only want to use it against monsters that have been debuffed, or when you get a buff like Righteous Brand or Good Omens against a low-AC creature that puts your to-hit roll to more than the monster's AC.

Storm of Destruction
Targets: One or two creatures.

You sayin' sumthin?

And yes, PA can be used, and very well, at that. For example, I could activate the storm of destruction using an action point, and, since I'm using a human as a base, benefit from Action surge, giving me a net +1 to attack.

[JaxGaret]

No. Read the ability. Attack: Strength vs. AC, one attack per target.

I don't think AK wants to cede this point.

[JaxGaret]

Storm of Destruction
Targets: One or two creatures.

You sayin' sumthin?

Would you read the whole power please?

Targets: One or two creatures
Attack: Strength vs. AC, one attack per target

One attack per target. Stop being so myopic.

[Azerian Kelimon]

Lemme see...

Yes. Apparently, you only deal 5 W to a single target.

Then, let's use No Mercy.

*Calculating, calculating*...

Yes, No Mercy deals less damage.

[Zocelot]

Not only does the fighter deal less damage to a single target, it can only use the attack once per day. I understand that a fighter doing more damage with his capping ability takes away from the feel, but a well played rogue will be doing [W}+Dex+5d8 each round, whereas the fighter gets [W]+Strength. Even in an final battle, no one is likely to use encounters or dailys more then half the time.

[Azerian Kelimon]

Not only does the fighter deal less damage to a single target, it can only use the attack once per day. I understand that a fighter doing more damage with his capping ability takes away from the feel, but a well played rogue will be doing [W}+Dex+5d8 each round, whereas the fighter gets [W]+Strength. Even in an final battle, no one is likely to use encounters or dailys more then half the time.

The CharOp guys say that a fighter actually does MORE damage than a rogue, though, both with dailies and encounter powers. Apparently, Oversized comes into play to give the fighter a boost.

[Pyroconstruct]

Storm of Destruction
Targets: One or two creatures.

You sayin' sumthin?

You readin' something? Other than the Player's Handbook? Here, let me spell it out for you.

Targets: One or two creatures
Attack: Strength vs. AC, one attack per target.

If you're still confused, try reading the last line of what I quoted again.