[4e] Flight and Wizard Powers

[Crow]

Way back in 3.5, it was stated by some (on these very boards) that pretty much every character needed to have flight available to them as early as 5th level. Flight was so important that 20th-level characters would fall to flying wizards if they did not have it.

I was wondering, from those who have gotten to browse the books; In your opinion, how important does flight look in the new edition? Has it's importance diminished?



And a side question; What wizard powers look the juiciest to you? Legion's Hold looks pretty sweet, but it seems like Sleep would get the same job done. What about Utility powers?

[Chronicled]

Flight was so important that 20th-level characters would fall to flying wizards if they did not have it.

This was actually due to the large number of higher-level monsters in the Monster Manual that could fly; without flight meleers could not engage them effectively. Additionally, avoiding creatures that didn't have flight was much easier if you did.

I can't comment on the 4e stuff, though.

[TheOOB]

Flight seems more difficult to get now, and the vast majority of ways you gain flight are only temporary. Flight is something you use to gain a tactical advantage now it seems, not something that is the default.

[Tempest Fennac]

That could be a problem if there's a lot of flying enermies (unless the melee people can also use bows effectively). Not being able to use flight to avoid certain hazards could also be a problem in a lot of cases.

[Tsotha-lanti]

Flight seems more difficult to get now, and the vast majority of ways you gain flight are only temporary. Flight is something you use to gain a tactical advantage now it seems, not something that is the default.

This is the impression I've gotten, and it's great. Flight is one of those adventure-ruining abilities that force you to design everything around it. (For a 3D example, check out Elder Scrolls IV: Oblivion - there's a reason they took out the flight spells between III and IV.)

[HeirToPendragon]

This is the impression I've gotten, and it's great. Flight is one of those adventure-ruining abilities that force you to design everything around it. (For a 3D example, check out Elder Scrolls IV: Oblivion - there's a reason they took out the flight spells between III and IV.)

Preach it

Anyone that ever had to DM a group that had a Warlock in it or some wizard that had perma fly and reigned down fireballs can tell you from experience that flying PCs were a lot harder to plan for.

[Illiterate Scribe]

To all those saying that there's no long-term flight options, I invite you to turn to p70 of your PHB, and look at the spell 'cloud chariot'.

[Orzel]

They really reduced PC flight

There's pretty much:
The carpet
Cloud Chariot
Some angel spell
Mantle of the seven winds
and a pair of hoppy boots.

But most creatures can't do jack while flying anyways. An the ones that can, can't for long. And the one that can attack well while flying get arrowed, bolted, blasted, or missiled, fall down down, and die via curse/SA/quarry.

No scary, flying, breath attack all the time monsters.

[Oracle_Hunter]

To all those saying that there's no long-term flight options, I invite you to turn to p70 of your PHB, and look at the spell 'cloud chariot'.

You know, I'm pretty OK with a level 22 cleric getting a long-term flight option.

The problem was when the 5th level Wizard/Cleric got it.

[Illiterate Scribe]

You know, I'm pretty OK with a level 22 cleric getting a long-term flight option.

The problem was when the 5th level Wizard/Cleric got it.

But now four people are flying and don't have to use move actions. All day. And get cover.

[Excal]

And are all sitting in one juicy little target.

[Animefunkmaster]

You know, I'm pretty OK with a level 22 cleric getting a long-term flight option.

The problem was when the 5th level Wizard/Cleric got it.

3.5 levels =/= 4e levels. A 5th level wizard does indeed get to fly, for 5 minutes per day... what this is more comparable to this is overland flight that can be chained to your buddies... Overland flight can be cast at level 9.

[Oracle_Hunter]

But now four people are flying and don't have to use move actions. All day. And get cover.

Level 22.

That's frickin' Epic Tier challenges. They're going to be facing world-threatening-monsters, and are already well on their Paragon Paths. I think I can cut these fellows a little slack and let them fly in a shiny chariot.

Level 5? Not so much. A flying 5th level wizard with a wand of fireballs could nuke challenges several levels above his party's EL, and forced the DM to invent ludicrous challenges to prevent it (or send the party into kobold caves all the time).

EDIT:

3.5 levels =/= 4e levels. A 5th level wizard does indeed get to fly, for 5 minutes per day... what this is more comparable to this is overland flight that can be chained to your buddies... Overland flight can be cast at level 9.

I was referring to 3.0 Fly, which was the worst offender. Overland Flight was a great change, but even 3.5 fly allowed the "death from above" wizard to work.

[Tsotha-lanti]

Yeah, I'm pretty okay with Paragon-tier parties getting flight, especially when it's pretty unusable in combat.

[Gort]

There are a number of very effective spells and abilities that have a big influence on adventure design.

1) Flight - too easy to avoid terrain and traveling encounters, major effect in many combat situations.
2) Teleport - too easy to avoid terrain and traveling encounters. I expect that we will see a lot of walls 5 squares thick to get around the Eladrin's movement power. I'm glad it's a ritual in 4th Ed.
3) ESP - never need to think in a social situation again.

How many of the plots of fantasy books would be totally neutered by these abilities. They really restrict what sort of game a GM can design. I'm glad that they are not readily available to players in the heroic tier.

[SamTheCleric]

Warlocks can get a flight power that lasts the encounter... Shadowform. Level 10.

That's the earliest sustainable flight power.

[HeirToPendragon]

Yeah but when they do it, they can't take standard actions. So really they won't be flying around the battlefield shooting eldritch blasts out of their eyes.

[Tokiko Mima]

I know there probably aren't rules for Monster PC's yet, but what happens when I transfer a 3.5 Pixie Warlock into a 4e Pixie Warlock? Will that wreck things to have permanent natural flight at level 1?

[SamTheCleric]

Yeah but when they do it, they can't take standard actions. So really they won't be flying around the battlefield shooting eldritch blasts out of their eyes.

I didn't say they would. I just was pointing it out.

Fly, the level 16 wizard power, can be sustained for an entire encounter if you give up all your minor actions to do so.

I know there probably aren't rules for Monster PC's yet, but what happens when I transfer a 3.5 Pixie Warlock into a 4e Pixie Warlock? Will that wreck things to have permanent natural flight at level 1?

There are rules for Monster PCs (bugbear, minotaur, githyanki etc). Githyanki get a once per encounter power to let themself or an ally fly 5 squares (psionic jump I think its called).

I don't know if you'll be able to play a Pixie by RAW in 4e... and making them have perma-fly would be unbalancing.

[Kurald Galain]

I know there probably aren't rules for Monster PC's yet, but what happens when I transfer a 3.5 Pixie Warlock into a 4e Pixie Warlock? Will that wreck things to have permanent natural flight at level 1?

You're not supposed to transfer characters from 3E to 4E, and the fact that 4E has no available races in PHB or MM that have permanent flight abilities from level 1, is entirely by design.

[Tokiko Mima]

There are rules for Monster PCs (bugbear, minotaur, githyanki etc). Githyanki get a once per encounter power to let themself or an ally fly 5 squares (psionic jump I think its called).

I don't know if you'll be able to play a Pixie by RAW in 4e... and making them have perma-fly would be unbalancing.

Well, I did hear they weren't in MM4e, but they're pretty much a staple fantasy race. It's also not like they're the only PC race that could fly, either. If the 4e system is designed not to handle flying things well, it's kind of a failure in the system itself to represent fantasy universes, isn't it?

I mean, isn't obtaining flight one of the first things most people would do with magic? It seems wierd to build an artificial limit and ban races that have always been able to fly on the basis that non-flyers can't compete. Is 1-to-1 balance that much more important than actually covering the genre you're supposed to model?

You're not supposed to transfer characters from 3E to 4E, and the fact that 4E has no available races in PHB or MM that have permanent flight abilities from level 1, is entirely by design.

"Not supposed to?" What does that mean? I'm aware that 4e is an entirely new system and direct conversion is not possible but you'll have to explain to me why "creating characters of certain races is impossible by design" is a good idea for a broad fantasy simulation. It's rather short-sighted, IMO.

I'm sorry, I'm not attacking either of you... I'm just a little flabbergasted that this kind of poor logic is actually built into 4e.

[Oracle_Hunter]

I'm sorry, I'm not attacking either of you... I'm just a little flabbergasted that this kind of poor logic is actually built into 4e.

So... 4e isn't really "designed" to be a broad-based fantasy simulation. Neither was 3rd, really. 1st Edition was designed to emulate a tactical miniatures game (Chainmail) and it included Tolkenesque elements to, in essence, "create" a new style of fantasy. GURPS Fantasy, as far as I know, is the only "broad based fantasy simulator" out there, really.

Long-term flight, long-range teleportation, and the like became deeply problematic for adventure designers over the course of D&D, so WotC has removed those races from the the core of 4e... at least as player choices.

Note also that there are lots of flight powers running around still, but they are deeply limited so as to not allow the "flying nukes" that previous editions allowed. Also note that, so long as you decide not to take a short rest, any "encounter length" power can keep running indefinitely (as far as I can tell). I'd probably put a limit on how long anyone can actual keep up concentration like that (Endurance checks, I suppose) but there we go.

If you really, really, want to play a faerie, you'll have to homebrew it. This isn't a failure of D&D, per se, but a conscious decision by the WotC designers to limit the possibilities of game-breaking combos. As you'll note, you can break the game at Epic Levels, but the rules explicitly say that, when you're that powerful, you should be able to.

[Xefas]

Well, I did hear they weren't in MM4e, but they're pretty much a staple fantasy race. It's also not like they're the only PC race that could fly, either. If the 4e system is designed not to handle flying things well, it's kind of a failure in the system itself to represent fantasy universes, isn't it?

I mean, isn't obtaining flight one of the first things most people would do with magic? It seems wierd to build an artificial limit and ban races that have always been able to fly on the basis that non-flyers can't compete. Is 1-to-1 balance that much more important than actually covering the genre you're supposed to model?

Yeah, I understand your plight. I've always wanted to be a Dragon at first level and fly around killing everything effortlessly while the rest of my party sits around doing absolutely nothing. I mean, Dragons are a staple of fantasy! How could they possibly justify stopping me from playing one on some stupid nebulous concept of "balance"?

Is balance really important, anyway? If I want to be a Dragon and make the rest of my party feel redundant, like they're just riding my coattails the entire time, I should damn well be able to do so. What kind of money grubbing whores would put an artificial limit on the races and ban me from playing a Dragon just because everyone else can't compete?

They aren't covering the genre well at all.

[Counterspin]

I like the 4e method. They work their hardest to provide a balanced tactical system. If you want to go beyond that, it's quite easy, but don't come crying to them about how it broke your game.

[AKA_Bait]

I'm sorry, I'm not attacking either of you... I'm just a little flabbergasted that this kind of poor logic is actually built into 4e.

As others have said, it's pretty decent logic actually.

JaxGaret had a notion that using the exp values to give equivalencies you might be able to play 'elite' monsters as PC's of equal level. If you wanted to play a Pixie Warlock then you could take a Pixie and slap on the Warlock template up to 4 times.

Of course, this means that you will also have to wait for them to release Pixies... who were left out of the 4e MM as far as I can tell.

[Tokiko Mima]

So... 4e isn't really "designed" to be a broad-based fantasy simulation. Neither was 3rd, really. 1st Edition was designed to emulate a tactical miniatures game (Chainmail) and it included Tolkenesque elements to, in essence, "create" a new style of fantasy. GURPS Fantasy, as far as I know, is the only "broad based fantasy simulator" out there, really.

Long-term flight, long-range teleportation, and the like became deeply problematic for adventure designers over the course of D&D, so WotC has removed those races from the the core of 4e... at least as player choices.

Note also that there are lots of flight powers running around still, but they are deeply limited so as to not allow the "flying nukes" that previous editions allowed. Also note that, so long as you decide not to take a short rest, any "encounter length" power can keep running indefinitely (as far as I can tell). I'd probably put a limit on how long anyone can actual keep up concentration like that (Endurance checks, I suppose) but there we go.

If you really, really, want to play a faerie, you'll have to homebrew it. This isn't a failure of D&D, per se, but a conscious decision by the WotC designers to limit the possibilities of game-breaking combos. As you'll note, you can break the game at Epic Levels, but the rules explicitly say that, when you're that powerful, you should be able to.

It is a failure and the fact that I can homebrew around it doesn't mean that it's not a problem. The situation seems to rather clearly state that 4e is more limited and stunted game than 3e, since 3e is in this case a more adaptable and powerful system for developing Fantasy universes in general.

It is also dangerous because limitless flight and teleportation actually does have the potential to end up in the players hands at low levels. If this happens, the system breaks because it has no counterbalance for these powers and the players run amuck. It's exactly like the Serpent Kingdom designer not expecting Manipulate Form to ever end up in Pun-Pun's hands. It's not a matter of "if," it WILL happen. It's only a matter of 'what splat book?'

Yeah, I understand your plight. I've always wanted to be a Dragon at first level and fly around killing everything effortlessly while the rest of my party sits around doing absolutely nothing. I mean, Dragons are a staple of fantasy! How could they possibly justify stopping me from playing one on some stupid nebulous concept of "balance"?

Is balance really important, anyway? If I want to be a Dragon and make the rest of my party feel redundant, like they're just riding my coattails the entire time, I should damn well be able to do so. What kind of money grubbing whores would put an artificial limit on the races and ban me from playing a Dragon just because everyone else can't compete?

They aren't covering the genre well at all.

Obviously wanting to play the D&D equivalent of a flying M1 Abrams tank would also be overpowered. Understand that your dragon is not bad simply because it's flying. 3e seemed to handle flying reasonably well, so I know it's not impossible for 4e to have done the same thing. The fact that it doesn't is a failing no matter how sarcastically you strawman it.

[Albatross]

Flight is one of those adventure-ruining abilities that force you to design everything around it. (For a 3D example, check out Elder Scrolls IV: Oblivion - there's a reason they took out the flight spells between III and IV.)

-and-

Long-term flight, long-range teleportation, and the like became deeply problematic for adventure designers over the course of D&D, so WotC has removed those races from the the core of 4e... at least as player choices.

In other words, because they weren't creative enough to come up with built-in alternatives or counters, they instead decided to hose the mechanic into nigh-uselessness? I'm sorry, but that's a lack of creativity. They were faced with a problem and, rather than present a reasonable solution, they instead try their best to remove the problem itself entirely... but just for players. The monsters, of course, still have an edge in this area.

I'll use Gort's examples for simple solutions:

1) Flight - too easy to avoid terrain and traveling encounters, major effect in many combat situations.
2) Teleport - too easy to avoid terrain and traveling encounters. I expect that we will see a lot of walls 5 squares thick to get around the Eladrin's movement power. I'm glad it's a ritual in 4th Ed.
3) ESP - never need to think in a social situation again.

1) Flight: At low levels, such as five, flight was a very short-ranged ability. In combat, it's true the Wizard could fly up and rain down death... while having no cover, against foes that could easily detect him, and hoping that the enemies (three to five for an average encounter) didn't spread out and begin assaulting his ~20 hit point self with ranged fire. At higher levels it becomes a pain, but there's plenty of ways to counter it, since any sort of entangling effect or mental lockdown still removed the flyer from the fight. At even higher levels, nearly everything can have access to it or just dispell a mass of it in one go and watch everyone tumble down to the ground.
2) Teleport: At the level which this spell is acquire, it's pretty much assumed that the party need not travel back to anywhere they've already been by means of hiking. It changes travel times to seconds as opposed to months, and gets rid of a bunch of low level encounters. One still can't use it to go just wherever, not without some advance spellwork to scout the location--which most higher-level destinations have easy ways of blocking, whether it be with other spells to cause misdirection, or physical limitations (thick stone walls with a thin lead sheet built into them), or the like.
3) ESP is great in many social situations... except the really important ones, which at the level it can be used, also has many counters. The fact that most people consider the campaign world to be like the real world several hundred years ago doesn't help the case much. In a world where spells and magic exist, the society will adapt. Counts and Kings will have mind-protecting enchantments on their signet rings, higher level Fey and Outsiders will just reply with "Hey, how's it going?" without moving their lips, etc.

All of these are solutions to the problem presented. None of them arbitrarily make it so that the problem does not exist in the first place. The thing is, these effects don't need to always be countered, because sometimes it is fun to have an advantage over the enemy now and then and be able to exploit it to the fullest. Unofrtunately, that capability has been removed from 4E as well.

---

Yeah, I understand your plight. I've always wanted to be a Dragon at first level and fly around killing everything effortlessly while the rest of my party sits around doing absolutely nothing.

*clapclapclapclap* That's the most beautiful burning of a STRAWMAN I've ever seen in my life. Kudos! Nevermind that what you said had nothing whatsoever at all to do with what Tokiko Mima stated, except possibly to magnify it to a ludicrous degree for purposes of making fun of it. But, ironicially, even that fails, because in your second unhelpful paradoy you state:

What kind of money grubbing whores would put an artificial limit on the races and ban me from playing a Dragon just because everyone else can't compete?

Perhaps you missed in your spoofing where 3.X actually does have rules for you playing Dragons. I know this isn't important, as you thought your spoofing of the other poster to be quite clever, but please try addressing his (or her) arguments directly instead of parodying them beyond usefulness.

[SamTheCleric]

They took away ECL and Level Adjustments... so, for a Pixie... let's see...

You wouldn't be able to wield 2 handed, versatile or heavy blades. You would be limited to light blades... maybe heavy blades in 2 hands. (keep you in line with the halflings not being able to wield two handed weapons and only versatile weapons in 2 hands) +2 Dex and +2 Cha. +2 Stealth and +2 Bluff. Encounter power... Turn invisible until the end of your next turn. If you make an attack, the invisibility ends.

That'd be as close to a pixie as you'd get. If you added in flight, it would be unbalancing to the races currently offered as monster races.

[AKA_Bait]

In other words, because they weren't creative enough to come up with built-in alternatives or counters, they instead decided to hose the mechanic into nigh-uselessness? I'm sorry, but that's a lack of creativity. They were faced with a problem and, rather than present a reasonable solution, they instead try their best to remove the problem itself entirely... but just for players. The monsters, of course, still have an edge in this area.

There are actually two issues there that you are conflating into one.

1. Reducing general PC ability to fly.

2. Providing playable monster races for monsters that have a signifigant advantage over PC's (such as flight).

You can certianly argue that not providing both is a lack of creativity. My response to which would be, simmer down, as it is for each individually.

Regarding 1, yes they made it more difficult for PC's to fly. PC's need to wait longer before they can take to the skies. This seems to be a thematic change as much as anything else. There aren't that many Monsters I can see in the heroic tier that can fly themselves and the ones that do so seem to do so under their own power, rather than magically.

Regarding 2, can we all admit that the 3.x mechanics for making playable monster races in Core sucked? The few races they have released in the MM seem to function a heck of a lot better than than their 3.x counterparts. Is it perhaps a problem that what were high LA creatures in 3x are not yet playable? Maybe, but we don't yet have a 4e equivalent of Savage Species. We might get one.

2) Teleport: At the level which this spell is acquire, it's pretty much assumed that the party need not travel back to anywhere they've already been by means of hiking. It changes travel times to seconds as opposed to months, and gets rid of a bunch of low level encounters. One still can't use it to go just wherever, not without some advance spellwork to scout the location--which most higher-level destinations have easy ways of blocking, whether it be with other spells to cause misdirection, or physical limitations (thick stone walls with a thin lead sheet built into them), or the like.

Yes. They seemed to have fixed this by still allowing them to travel back, via ritiual (so that it takes minutes instead of months, which is better narrativley so that the entire party can't just pop off in the middle of a battle), to places that they have already been and the DM wants them to be able to bypass the travel time too. Also, the lead lined or thick stone wall is home brew eh al la Dunegonomicon right?

Perhaps you missed in your spoofing where 3.X actually does have rules for you playing Dragons.

At very high LA with racial HD. The only times it became remotley possible to practically play a dragon by RAW was toward the very end of the 3.5 run, if then. All of the playable races from the MM thus far released in 4e have been playable from level 1. Dragons have never, ever, been playable from level 1. Some races have too many built in adavantages to reasonably be playable with their powers from level one. It might be that pixies will be relased at sompoint as a playable race, but I'll bet huge stacks of something valuable that they won't have the ability to fly (or no more than the Gith's do) at level 1, nor should they. Negotiating that with class levels, in order to keep the party on the same footing mechanically, is no easy task.

[Vortling]

They took away ECL and Level Adjustments... so, for a Pixie... let's see...

You wouldn't be able to wield 2 handed, versatile or heavy blades. You would be limited to light blades... maybe heavy blades in 2 hands. (keep you in line with the halflings not being able to wield two handed weapons and only versatile weapons in 2 hands) +2 Dex and +2 Cha. +2 Stealth and +2 Bluff. Encounter power... Turn invisible until the end of your next turn. If you make an attack, the invisibility ends.

That'd be as close to a pixie as you'd get. If you added in flight, it would be unbalancing to the races currently offered as monster races.

You could always throw in racial feats for the other things you want and make them the appropriate tier. After all, don't dragonborn get a racial feat that allows them flight?