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  1. - Top - End - #1
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    NinjaGuy

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    Default 3.5 Cleric Build Lvl3 33AC, can't attack

    For this build I used PHB and Book of Exalted Deeds

    Human Cleric Charm and Healing (or Animal?)
    At level 1, take Sacred Vow, human bonus feat: Vow of Non-Violence, exalted bonus feat for being nice: Vow of Poverty +2 Diplomacy
    At level one: +4AC
    At level 2, take Vow of Peace (+6 AC and an additional +2 to poverty) +4 to Diplomacy too
    At level 2: +12AC
    At level 3: Tower Shield Proficiency, dual wield tower shields, AC goes up +1 with Vow of Poverty as well as an endure elements
    At level 3: +21 AC
    At this point I have added the two tower shields. Since he doesnít have a weapon, he doesnít need the other arm free really. Itís a stretch but I didnít see anywhere where it says I canít. I am not allowing the Cleric to have anything over 100 gp on his person at a time as the vow of poverty was pretty unspecific, so this gives him 60 gp total with 40gp left for other possessions. This means at level 3 a cleric can have 31 AC. This is without the DEX bonus, can only be +2 due to tower shields anyway so a possible 33.

    So whatís the purpose of this all? Well, for starters with two shields the cleric can just rush into melee and absorb attacks as other characters fight. He can also buff, summon monsters, and heal whenever is needed. You also have calm emotions aura and the ability to destroy weapons that attack your body sometimes. Sure you are pretty useless in terms of combat as you probably will never make an attack roll, but you summon, buff, and heal, possibly do some turning, have celestial summons smite evil and can contribute a decent amount to the battle. Not to mention you free up others to attack the many enemies swarming all over you.

    Please correct me on everything here that I did wrong or just give further suggestions. I have access to a wide variety of books that my friends own.
    If all else fails, call in an airstrike.

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    Default Re: 3.5 Cleric Build Lvl3 33AC, can't attack

    I'm.. pretty sure Vow of Poverty does not allow you to use a Tower Shield. If it does, there's no point to using two of them. They will both provide a Shield bonus to AC, which cannot stack with itself.

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    Default Re: 3.5 Cleric Build Lvl3 33AC, can't attack

    Would't Vow of Poverty stop you from using shields? I thought you were only allowed to carry 1 Simple Weapon if you took that feat.
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    NinjaGuy

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    Default Re: 3.5 Cleric Build Lvl3 33AC, can't attack

    Hmm, good point on the stacking of shields. -4 AC 29 AC. When I read the description it was iffy on what all you were allowed by way of armor/clothing. I put the limit at 100 gps but that might be too high.
    If all else fails, call in an airstrike.

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    Tempest Fennac's Avatar

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    Default Re: 3.5 Cleric Build Lvl3 33AC, can't attack

    I assumed you were limited to 1 days worth of food, 1 basic set of clothes, a basic spell componant pouch and 1 Simple weapon (I don't have the book, so I can't check it).
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    Default Re: 3.5 Cleric Build Lvl3 33AC, can't attack

    Quote Originally Posted by timbuck_hunter View Post
    Hmm, good point on the stacking of shields. -4 AC 29 AC. When I read the description it was iffy on what all you were allowed by way of armor/clothing. I put the limit at 100 gps but that might be too high.
    I don't see how it's iffy, actually. Assuming dandello has it accurately, you're allowed:

    Simple, non-magical non-masterwork weapons (in the spirit of the vow you would only have one, but the text does allow for multiple)
    One set of simple clothes
    One day's food
    A spell component pouch.

    That's it. By the strict text, you may have no other material possession, not even a holy symbol to use as a divine focus. A DM may relax this to 'no material possessions of value', which would probably let you use a basic wooden symbol and carry a larger food supply, but it would still not cover Tower Shields.

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    Barbarian in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: 3.5 Cleric Build Lvl3 33AC, can't attack

    Your bonuses are added wrong, me thinks.

    Vow of Poverty: +5 Exalted bonus

    Vow of Peace: +2 (increase to Vow of Poverty's) exalted bonus, +2 Natural Armor, +2 deflection.

    Remember that bonuses of the same name don't stack, and vow of peace grants both a bonus (that won't stack with Vow of Poverty) and an increase to the bonuses of vow of poverty.

    Also, no shields with vow of poverty for the above reasons, it is very specific under the feat description.

    First recommendation: don't play this, it isn't fun. You can't summon (read vow of peace under non damaging spells), you can't do buffs (outside of temp hp and con, again read non damaging spells under vow of peace), enemies will not swarm you (you have AC, sure, but there is no reason for an enemy to attack you if you aren't threatening them in some way) and finally you are a wet blanket (read vow of nonviolence and the moral penalty to alleys, it is almost counter intuitive to take this feat with a normal party).

    Second recommendation: find something fun to do with this (I did a warforged who used stigmata and mitigate suffering, bleeding warforged... weird), because otherwise you will be preaching the same jazz and making diplomacy checks and begging the party to play by your rules. Find something do that isn't always this (like levels in feat rogue and go skill monkeying around)

    Third recommendation: Be a Dragonborn (wings) strong heart hafling, get the bonus feat and the small size, its really a win win. This will keep your AC high, bonus feat like a human, and flight... which is a good magic item you will miss. Not to mention small bonus to hit and high ground bonuses (could be used for a well placed stunning fist).

    Fourth recommendation: go into apostle of peace asap (level 8), nab a level of cloistered cleric if you must (domains and such) not cleric (no need for armor proficiencies), but use your other levels for things that might help you more. 2 levels in monk or swordsage are great, 2 levels in paladin fit thematically and mechanically (take the serenity feat from Dragon Compendium to make your pali abilities work off of wisdom), a level of fighter (if your dm lets shields fly with vop take it quickly and never look back).

    Fifth recommendation: synergize with wisdom... casting, AC, Saves, and to hit (Zen Archer CWy, or Intuitive Attack BOED).

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    Pixie in the Playground
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    Default Re: 3.5 Cleric Build Lvl3 33AC, can't attack

    Another problem with using multiple shields (especially tower shields), is that you can't cast any spells that require somatic or material components. I'd argue its hard to reach into your pocket with a 30 pound shield attached too it.

    "Tanking" really doesn't work as well as people expect to in D&D. Unless you have an ability or spell forcing creatures to attack your unbeatable AC, they are just going to attack your other party members, since they will probably be much easier to hit then you are (though that really depends on the Int of the things attacking you).

    Like the previous posters have mentioned: Shields don't stack and you can't use shields due to the vow (its very specific).

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    Cainen's Avatar

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    Default Re: 3.5 Cleric Build Lvl3 33AC, can't attack

    Potions of Shield are 50 gp each, and grant a +4 shield bonus to AC for the remainder of combat. 5 ranks in Tumble grants a +1 bonus to fighting defensively and a +2 bonus to total defense.

    Is this specifically supposed to be a Cleric, or can you branch out into other classes? The Swordsage works wonders for a defensive class, especially when you start dipping into extra AC boosting items.
    HOW IS BABBY FORMED

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    Default Re: 3.5 Cleric Build Lvl3 33AC, can't attack

    The 50gp version of shield of faith is only +2 deflection.

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    Cainen's Avatar

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    Default Re: 3.5 Cleric Build Lvl3 33AC, can't attack

    Right, but the Wizard spell is quite existent, too, and that -is- +4 AC. Brew Potion isn't limited to Clerics.
    HOW IS BABBY FORMED

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    SamTheCleric's Avatar

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    Default Re: 3.5 Cleric Build Lvl3 33AC, can't attack

    You can't make a potion of Shield (which is a Shield bonus, not a deflection bonus) as it is a Personal spell. No potions of personal spells.

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    Cainen's Avatar

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    Default Re: 3.5 Cleric Build Lvl3 33AC, can't attack

    Whoops. Forgot that we had had that houseruled due to it being basically nothing more than a per-encounter Mage Armor with a useless perk attached.
    HOW IS BABBY FORMED

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    NinjaGuy

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    Default Re: 3.5 Cleric Build Lvl3 33AC, can't attack

    I don't believe that you are alowed your own potions, someone else must grant them to you.

    This is a major work in progress people. I wanted the two shields more for roleplaying purposes than actual funcuality. I wasn't sure on the shield rules or the AC rules as I almost always play wizard or an equivalent and am not familiar with all the fighter etc. rules. As for summoning, I don't think that it's not allowed as these are spells that bring something into existence rather than directly attack another character. Also I have heard of people doing crazy things with summons, ie. summoning unicorns for healing, summoning celestials for smite evil, and the all powerful gate spell to have monsters grant wishes, broken) I would think that a DM would allow it anyways. As for the dragonborne that is a great idea. I have also been suggested being a wizard for mage armor and alter self (+6 AC and flight with a second level spell? okay...) along with other spells, this would probably be the more effective choice but I am wondering if a spellbook is allowed. I am looking in to seeing if there is a spell/feat/ability that will cause monsters to focus their attacks on you, kind of like some martyr type feat or taunt ability.
    Overall I think a lot of this will be subject to DM approval, especially as this character will have huge Diplomacy stats and Diplomacy on a whole is super broken: "you like me---WE LIKE YOU!!!"
    THere are also many other interesting effects that happen along the road with vow of poverty.
    Also, just because you have a vow of poverty and vow of peace does not necessarily mean that the character is totally perfect and good in all ways. Maybe he's a chronic liar (goes well with Diplomancy, maybe Trickery (?) as a Domain?), or likes to sleep around, who knows? I am planning on him being lawful good, also a change for me as I usually just play a super chaotic neutral character who would rather kill problems than deal with them.

    Thanks for the help. Aditional help would be much appreciated, especially later levels to make sure he doesn't suck later on.
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    Default Re: 3.5 Cleric Build Lvl3 33AC, can't attack

    Um, reread Vow of Peace and Non-Violence...summoning creatures to fight for you doesn't work, since you are advocating violence through means that aren't directly by your hand. Its the same as telling an ally to cut the throat of a helpless foe. It'll cause you to fall faster than W's approval rating. Exalted characters aren't just LG, they are LG+1. Reread the whole section on what an exalted character means. Its pretty hardcore, almost to the point of unplayability.

    Don't get me wrong, its not a bad gimmik for a character, but if you want to go about abusing what are widely considered some of the most rediculous rules in existance, be prepared to face the consequences of falling.

    And like one of the above posters mentioned, exalted characters not only make play difficult for you, but for your allies. The aura from Vow of Peace is EXTREMELY annoying for your whole party, and the cumulative penalty you impose upon your party is just stupid.

    BTW, the feat you want to make people attack you is called Goad, and I believe its in CAdv? Someone correct me if I'm wrong. There is a thread over on CharOp on how to maximize Goad. Take a look there if you are interested.
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    AssassinGuy

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    Default Re: 3.5 Cleric Build Lvl3 33AC, can't attack

    After subtracting spells that require either a (divine) focus or expensive material component (Vow of Poverty), and spells that do damage (Vow of Peace), I think your entire spell list is the following.

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    Bull's Strength
    Cause Fear
    Command
    Create Water
    Cure Light Wounds
    Cure Minor Wounds
    Cure Moderate Wounds
    Darkness
    Deathwatch
    Detect Magic
    Detect Poison
    Detect Undead
    Eagle's Splendor
    Elation
    Endure Elements
    Enthrall
    Entropic Shield
    Eyes of the Avoral
    Find Traps
    Guidance
    Lantern Light
    Lastai's Caress
    Make Whole
    Mending
    Obscuring Mist
    Purify Food and Drink
    Ray of Hope
    Remove Addiction
    Remove Fear
    Remove Paralysis
    Lesser Restoration
    Shatter
    Shield of Faith
    Silence
    Status
    Undetectable Alignment
    Vision of Heaven

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    Default Re: 3.5 Cleric Build Lvl3 33AC, can't attack

    After subtracting spells that require either a (divine) focus or expensive material component (Vow of Poverty), and spells that do damage (Vow of Peace), I think your entire spell list is the following.
    To be fair, I think most DMs will houserule that a cleric is allowed a simple holy symbol made of a humble material like wood or leather. That should open up your spell list considerably.
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    Default Re: 3.5 Cleric Build Lvl3 33AC, can't attack

    I'd have to agree with Chronos. (doesn't a Holy Symbol do the same thing for Divine Casters as a Spell Componant Pouch does for Arcane Casters?)
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    Default Re: 3.5 Cleric Build Lvl3 33AC, can't attack

    Quote Originally Posted by timbuck_hunter View Post
    I don't believe that you are alowed your own potions, someone else must grant them to you.
    While potions are an example given, the 'cannot use magic items of any type or fall' aspect of the vow is fairly clear.

    As for summoning, I don't think that it's not allowed as these are spells that bring something into existence rather than directly attack another character.
    But that's not the point. You've taken a Vow of Peace. Committing actions that lead to violence - actions whose sole purpose is to lead to violence - is not compatible with it.

    Also, just because you have a vow of poverty and vow of peace does not necessarily mean that the character is totally perfect and good in all ways.
    Actually, yes, that is basically what the [Exalted] descriptor means.

    (goes well with Diplomancy, maybe Trickery (?) as a Domain?),
    Diplomancy is not exactly considered a good tactic; while technically it slaughters everything, it's not very fun for everyone else.


    or likes to sleep around, who knows? I am planning on him being lawful good, also a change for me as
    Most lawful societies would be monogamous (generally more stable type of relationship); sleeping around, even in a polygamist society, would generally be seen as destabilising; ergo ...

    I usually just play a super chaotic neutral character who would rather kill problems than deal with them.
    That is a potentially problematic outlook.

    Basically, I think that the issue with the vows is that you're trying to find a way round them, to get the benefit without having to constrain yourself to the difficult prerequisites. That's not the point. The point is to use these exalted feats as a reward - albeit even a slightly suboptimal one - for characters who do their best to try to be perfectly good. Summoning minions to kill stuff so that you don't get your hands dirty isn't exactly a good example of that.

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    Imp

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    Default Re: 3.5 Cleric Build Lvl3 33AC, can't attack

    Even with Vow of peace, you can fully unleash all the repressed energy (accumulated in years of "non violent smiles" and "non violent kindness" in front of unpolite and rude behaviour of some NPS or PC) attacking some kind of monsters that are not "alive" (such as undead or constructs).
    ;)

    Other than that, according to me you should play the Exalted feats limitations ad indications not to the letter but to the spirit.

    I agree with Chronos about the holy symbol.
    I also think that every character that has Exalted feats should be allowed to carry a holy symbol, just because those kind of characters should have very strong ties to their patron god.

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    Default Re: 3.5 Cleric Build Lvl3 33AC, can't attack

    Is there any reason to take vow of poverty and vow of nonviolence (vow of peace being a pre req)? I would think not. These feats cripple your ability to be useful in a game (as diplomacy tends to be your primary tool, and forces your team to do the same) but it also forces your RP ability (Nothin like begging for stuff... and preaching non violence and the downfalls of ownership... your not really the adventuring type). Don't get me wrong, in some extreme circumstances this can work, but in most you are just better off with your own personal vow and use the items you want... it will tend to be better than vow of poverty anyway.

    As for being a tank, try grabbing combat reflexes, reach (spiked chain preferable), a size increasement and either improved trip or standstill.

    As for straight AC, lets look at what you could have with non magical items that are restricted due to VOP.

    Fullplate: +8 armor +1 max dex
    Tower Shield (not you can't shield bash with a tower shield, use another one):+4 ac OR +2 cover

    This already gives you more AC than all of your vows put together, without starting to purchase the magical items (like ring of deflection, pendant of nat armor, yatta yatta).

    The vows from a mechanical stand point are just not worth it, it is better to have a personal vow that you are fine with breaking from time to time than a feat that stats once you break it, you are boned.

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    Default Re: 3.5 Cleric Build Lvl3 33AC, can't attack

    Two possibilities:
    Take the Sacred Vow, Vow of Non-Violence, Vow of Poverty and Vow of Peace feats. The exalted bonus to AC from Peace stacks with Poverty (this is specifically stated). You'd have no shields though, so you'd get an AC of +13 at level 3.

    Or you could take the Tower Shield proficiency feat and equip one and a Full Plate. You'd have an AC of +12 at level 3. And be able to make them magical.

    Vows are not overpowered, in fact, they are underpowered. Even when used in a cheesy way, like the OP originally wanted, they create subpar characters.

    The purpose of the Vows is for characters who want to roleplay those kinds of characters without becoming extremely underpowered.
    Last edited by Ceaon; 2008-06-11 at 04:53 AM.
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    Default Re: 3.5 Cleric Build Lvl3 33AC, can't attack

    Quote Originally Posted by timbuck_hunter View Post
    I usually just play a super chaotic evil character who would rather kill problems than deal with them.
    Fixed that for you.

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    Default Re: 3.5 Cleric Build Lvl3 33AC, can't attack

    So lets look at what we have
    A character with absurd AC who can't attack, can't provoke others to attack (remember calm emotions aura) and can only buff party members, unless ...
    He is a monk, monks almost exclusively use no weapons, they can't wear armour (which is indeed prohibited by VoP "ordinary ... simple weapons ..., simple clothes ... and enough food to sustain you for a day in a bag.") and also get equal use from non-lethal and lethal damage (unarmed strikes FTW)
    Oh and also you add both DEX and WIS to AC. So play a high DEX monk and get weapon finesse. Or, get Intuitive Attack.
    If you could get your Dm to approve it, take Touch of Golden Ice. Now they take Dex damage and get stunned and take non-lethal damage all in the same attack. By definition it does violate Vow of Non-Violence, but it is an exalted feat and does only dex damage and only against evil creatures.
    Thematically either Sanctify Ki Strike, or Nimbus of Light and Stigmata.
    Also, I'd like to point out the penalty to attacks from Vow of Non-Violence only activates if "who slays a helpless foe" So its not a big deal really, just no senseless killing, imprisonment work well instead (get allies to carry loads of MW Manacles.
    I'd like to point out that I had a friend who using the SRD only made a character level 1 with AC of 25 (base 10, Full Plate +8, Tower Shield +4, Small +1, Natural Armour +1, and Dex +1) (he was kobold fighter)

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    Default Re: 3.5 Cleric Build Lvl3 33AC, can't attack

    VoP characters cannot carry tower shields, nor wear any armor. [/ nitpick ] Also, a Vow of Peace character - really, is that character going to dive into battle for any reason, let alone to intentionally take hits?
    One of my friends played an Apostle of Peace reasonably, that is, screaming "STOP IT STOP IT MASS HEAL!" Incredibly annoying to everyone else, but true to the Vows he took.

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    Default Re: 3.5 Cleric Build Lvl3 33AC, can't attack

    Quote Originally Posted by Dull_Oddity View Post
    I'd like to point out that I had a friend who using the SRD only made a character level 1 with AC of 25 (base 10, Full Plate +8, Tower Shield +4, Small +1, Natural Armour +1, and Dex +1) (he was kobold fighter)
    While I won't point out some of the glaring issues of monks and the VoP, I'll just comment that the kobold's full plate is worth more than level 2 wealth by level, so by raw that won't happen. Not only that, but all that armor weighs 47.5 lbs. For a small character, you'd need a strength of at least 15 to carry those around and stay in light encumberance (hard to do at level 1 with a -4 to strength) -> if your groups uses encumberance rules.

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    Default Re: 3.5 Cleric Build Lvl3 33AC, can't attack

    The group I was in pooled gold for this guy, hey a tank that can't be hit is useful even if it does mean that my bard can't get a +1 to AC. Also, Who cares, he is a koblod he's not going to be moving too much, so encumbrance really isn't a big deal, hence a strength score of 9 is all that is needed. If I wanted it to be a light load then yes a strength score of 15 is required, but why? he takes no additional armour check penalties, takes no reduced max dex, takes no speed reduction. He might as well just not bother. To get the strength score of 9 the stat he rolled would have to be 13 which is not absurdly high at all.

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    Default Re: 3.5 Cleric Build Lvl3 33AC, can't attack

    Quote Originally Posted by thread
    Quote Originally Posted by timbuck_hunter
    I usually just play a super chaotic evil stupid character who would rather kill problems than deal with them.
    Quote Originally Posted by nagora View Post
    Fixed that for you.
    Meta-fixed that for ya.
    You have your way. I have my way. As for the right way, the correct way, and the only way, it does not exist. - Friedrich Nietzsche

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    Default Re: 3.5 Cleric Build Lvl3 33AC, can't attack

    Quote Originally Posted by thread
    Quote Originally Posted by timbuck_hunter
    I usually just play a super chaotic evil stupid character who would rather kill problems than deal with them.
    Quote Originally Posted by nagora View Post
    Fixed that for you.
    Meta-fixed that for ya.
    You have your way. I have my way. As for the right way, the correct way, and the only way, it does not exist. - Friedrich Nietzsche

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    Default Re: 3.5 Cleric Build Lvl3 33AC, can't attack

    You could just stay at the bar and drink. You'd be equally protected and useful to the party.

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