Lycanthopy=Keepin' Da' Peace?

[Burley]

Inspired by the other lycanthropy thread, where people are talkin' about paladin's falling if they willingly change form as a werewolf.

What about werebears, which are Lawful Good? Could you afflict a very evil person with werebear bites? Then, being the evil person they are, they'd try to use their power for evil, but when they willingly changed form, they become Lawful Good.

Is it the answer to chaotic evil players?

[Tempest Fennac]

I thought that Lycanthropy perminantly changed the alignment of whoever was afflicted with it. If it works that way, they wouldn't need to shift voluntarily.

[Mewtarthio]

I believe they'd know from the start that they'd become LG if they shifted willingly. You could, however, keep them prisoner until they eventually became aware of their condition and failed the Will save to avoid alignment shift.

[Burley]

I'm pretty sure the rules say that your alignment changes when you willingly shift, not when you're afflicted or when you shift at a full-moon.

But, giving a chaotic evil guy awesome power and expecting him not to use it is like giving Agustus Gloop a chocolate river and saying not to drink from it.

[Mewtarthio]

I'm pretty sure the rules say that your alignment changes when you willingly shift, not when you're afflicted or when you shift at a full-moon.

From the SRD:

A character with awareness of his condition retains his identity and does not lose control of his actions if he changes. However, each time he changes to his animal form, he must make a Will save (DC 15 + number of times he has been in animal form) or permanently assume the alignment of his animal form in all shapes.

Once a character becomes aware of his affliction, he can now voluntarily attempt to change to animal or hybrid form, using the appropriate Control Shape check DC. An attempt is a standard action and can be made each round. Any voluntary change to animal or hybrid form immediately and permanently changes the character’s alignment to that of the appropriate lycanthrope.

But, giving a chaotic evil guy awesome power and expecting him not to use it is like giving Agustus Gloop a chocolate river and saying not to drink from it.

Chaotic Evil doesn't mean stupid. If you give a CE guy a nuclear bomb that can only be detonated at point-blank range, he's not going to push the button just because that's a lot of power. He's also not going to sacrifice his free will just to get stronger.

[MammonAzrael]

But apparently he'll have to make a Will save every time he changes, no matter what. And he will eventually fail that save. So I guess it works? Still a weird concept though.

But once he is lawful good, would he try to cure the lycanthropy, try to change back to CE? Could he? Ahhh, damn confusing alignment system!

[SurlySeraph]

Inspired by the other lycanthropy thread, where people are talkin' about paladin's falling if they willingly change form as a werewolf.

What about werebears, which are Lawful Good? Could you afflict a very evil person with werebear bites? Then, being the evil person they are, they'd try to use their power for evil, but when they willingly changed form, they become Lawful Good.

Is it the answer to chaotic evil players?

That is far too awesome not to work.

[Swiftpaw Fatfox]

But apparently he'll have to make a Will save every time he changes, no matter what. And he will eventually fail that save. So I guess it works? Still a weird concept though.

But once he is lawful good, would he try to cure the lycanthropy, try to change back to CE? Could he? Ahhh, damn confusing alignment system!

It's things like this that makes alignment confusing. Why are werewolves considered to be CE? and so many other creatures don't really go in to describing why they are a certain alignment

[marjan]

I believe they'd know from the start that they'd become LG if they shifted willingly. You could, however, keep them prisoner until they eventually became aware of their condition and failed the Will save to avoid alignment shift.

That, might not be the case. Lycatrophy states just that the afflicted creature is aware of it's condition (which isn't always same as knowing all about new condition). Since it is disease it might be possible that they only know that they can shift into animal, and not the other consequences of doing it. If the target makes appropriate knowledge check, then it would be aware of it, but I don't believe it to be auto-knowledge check.

Look at it this way: It's a disease. When you get sick and symptoms start manifesting, you obviously know that there is something unusual happening with you, but you don't know exactly what until you go to see a doctor.

But once he is lawful good, would he try to cure the lycanthropy, try to change back to CE? Could he? Ahhh, damn confusing alignment system!

Note that change in alignment is permanent and that he is now LG. When he switches to animal form he acts according to his LG alignment, so there is no possibility to do something against his alignment, so he doesn't have to fear of doing something evil due to lack of control. Even if he cures it, because of some other reason (example: he doesn't like loosing control over his actions), he will still retain his LG alignment as the change is permanent.

[marjan]

It's things like this that makes alignment confusing. Why are werewolves considered to be CE? and so many other creatures don't really go in to describing why they are a certain alignment

It is usually most common alignment of the creatures, when speaking generally. In case of Wereanimal it is not the alignment of animal, but the "feel" of the nature of those animals. Weather that "feel" follows any logic is something beyond me.

[Mewtarthio]

It's things like this that makes alignment confusing. Why are werewolves considered to be CE? and so many other creatures don't really go in to describing why they are a certain alignment

It's quite simple, really. Werewolve are CE because sapient creatures that acted like wolves would be considered CE. Chaotic because wolves are anarchic and disorganized creatures that don't follow the authority of, for instance, some sort of Alpha Wolf or something like that, and most certainly don't perform organized activities such as pack hunting. Evil because wolves are vicious and violent creatures that kill at random (much like rats), unlike, say, bears, who are nice herbivores that never harm other creatures and always help those in need.

That, might not be the case. Lycatrophy states just that the afflicted creature is aware of it's condition (which isn't always same as knowing all about new condition). Since it is disease it might be possible that they only know that they can shift into animal, and not the other consequences of doing it. If the target makes appropriate knowledge check, then it would be aware of it, but I don't believe it to be auto-knowledge check.

Look at it this way: It's a disease. When you get sick and symptoms start manifesting, you obviously know that there is something unusual happening with you, but you don't know exactly what until you go to see a doctor.

That seems a touch unfair if applied to all lycanthropes equally:

You discover that you now have the power to transform into a wolf!
"Hey, cool, let me try it out..."
Congrats, you become Chaotic Evil and are now an NPC. Roll a new character.

Besides, most werewolf stories in which succumbing to wolfish nature is a risk have plenty of angst over the characters trying to battle their animal urges (represented by the Will save).

Note that change in alignment is permanent and that he is now LG. When he switches to animal form he acts according to his LG alignment, so there is no possibility to do something against his alignment, so he doesn't have to fear of doing something evil due to lack of control. Even if he cures it, because of some other reason (example: he doesn't like loosing control over his actions), he will still retain his LG alignment as the change is permanent.

There's always atonement or a natural shift in alignment (ie character development). I'd say that the latter is impossible until the curse is lifted, though, as whatever progress is made would be undone on the next change.

[Swiftpaw Fatfox]

[QUOTE=Mewtarthio;4453455]It's quite simple, really. Werewolve are CE because sapient creatures that acted like wolves would be considered CE. Chaotic because wolves are anarchic and disorganized creatures that don't follow the authority of, for instance, some sort of Alpha Wolf or something like that, and most certainly don't perform organized activities such as pack hunting. Evil because wolves are vicious and violent creatures that kill at random (much like rats), unlike, say, bears, who are nice herbivores that never harm other creatures and always help those in need.

What? Wolves aren't anarchic and disorganized, and they aren't vicious or violent. Or are you just trying to say that wolves are simply viewed that way by most humanoids?

[The Rose Dragon]

What? Wolves aren't anarchic and disorganized, and they aren't vicious or violent. Or are you just trying to say that wolves are simply viewed that way by most humanoids?

He is being sarcastic, foo'.

[Renegade Paladin]

It's quite simple, really. Werewolve are CE because sapient creatures that acted like wolves would be considered CE. Chaotic because wolves are anarchic and disorganized creatures that don't follow the authority of, for instance, some sort of Alpha Wolf or something like that, and most certainly don't perform organized activities such as pack hunting. Evil because wolves are vicious and violent creatures that kill at random (much like rats), unlike, say, bears, who are nice herbivores that never harm other creatures and always help those in need.

What? Wolves aren't anarchic and disorganized, and they aren't vicious or violent. Or are you just trying to say that wolves are simply viewed that way by most humanoids?

Might want to get your sarcasm meter looked at; it seems broken.

[Swiftpaw Fatfox]

It is usually most common alignment of the creatures, when speaking generally. In case of Wereanimal it is not the alignment of animal, but the "feel" of the nature of those animals. Weather that "feel" follows any logic is something beyond me.

in other words assumed alignment

[marjan]

That seems a touch unfair if applied to all lycanthropes equally:

You discover that you now have the power to transform into a wolf!
"Hey, cool, let me try it out..."
Congrats, you become Chaotic Evil and are now an NPC. Roll a new character.

Besides, most werewolf stories in which succumbing to wolfish nature is a risk have plenty of angst over the characters trying to battle their animal urges (represented by the Will save).

It's not completely unfair, since they get a will save to keep their alignment. If they do that for the first time DC is pretty low. If they are doing it constantly then it is completely fair - you want power, deal with consequences. And if he argues that he didn't know what will happen, well - Ignorance is poor excuse.

Well, in many stories that I read (not many I have to say) if the characters are resisting changing into animal (IOW they only do it on full moon, when they can't resist it no matter what), then you have no problem with alignment since it's not voluntary change (however they will still go and slaughter innocent people, which is what being CE usually do).

If they voluntarily change, they will get will save, in case they make they will still slaughter people, but that won't cost them their alignment (note that this is generous in D&D, since turning into killing machine is very evil thing to do, usually). If they fail their save, oh well you gambled, you lost, live with it.

There's always atonement or a natural shift in alignment (ie character development). I'd say that the latter is impossible until the curse is lifted, though, as whatever progress is made would be undone on the next change.

Neither of those should work IMO until the curse is lifted. And for atonement, I have to wonder why would anyone who is good want to become evil, and opposite, without it naturally happening. That spell is IMO only useful for fallen Paladins and Clerics.

[Swiftpaw Fatfox]

Might want to get your sarcasm meter looked at; it seems broken.

hard to tell when some one's being sarcastic by typing

[marjan]

in other words assumed alignment

Exactly. Did I say it has to always make sense?

[Swiftpaw Fatfox]

Exactly. Did I say it has to always make sense?

lol, no. and most of the time it doesn't. The issue of alignment is one of the reasons I like the EQRPG better.

[Ned the undead]

I'm pretty sure the rules say that your alignment changes when you willingly shift, not when you're afflicted or when you shift at a full-moon.

But, giving a chaotic evil guy awesome power and expecting him not to use it is like giving Agustus Gloop a chocolate river and saying not to drink from it.

I just pictured a kid who played Gloop in a play I teched for when I read this. Best child actor EVAR.

[Collin152]

hard to tell when some one's being sarcastic by typing

He called Bears peaceful herbivores.

[Worira]

It's quite simple, really. Werewolve are CE because sapient creatures that acted like wolves would be considered CE. Chaotic because wolves are anarchic and disorganized creatures that don't follow the authority of, for instance, some sort of Alpha Wolf or something like that, and most certainly don't perform organized activities such as pack hunting. Evil because wolves are vicious and violent creatures that kill at random (much like rats), unlike, say, bears, who are nice herbivores that never harm other creatures and always help those in need.

Also, bears live in hives.

[KillianHawkeye]

Lycanthrope alignments are based entirely on TV/movie logic rather than any kind of common sense. Movie werewolves are 99% of the time crazy evil killers, so they are CE.

I guess the other were-animal alignments were somehow based on comparing them with were-wolves.

[Collin152]

Also, bears live in hives.

That's why honey-bottles are shaped like bears, right?

[marjan]

That's why honey-bottles are shaped like bears, right?

No, that's why bears are shaped like honey-bottles.

[BizzaroStormy]

Here's a good question, why does transformation change your alignment at all? I could understand if this was the kind of werewolf that goes nuts on the night of the full moon then wakes up in human form the next day with no recollection of what happened but thats simply not the case here.

[Collin152]

No, that's why bears are shaped like honey-bottles.

Like how humans look like sculptures?

[marjan]

Here's a good question, why does transformation change your alignment at all? I could understand if this was the kind of werewolf that goes nuts on the night of the full moon then wakes up in human form the next day with no recollection of what happened but thats simply not the case here.

Since the transformation has to voluntary, in order for you to be subject to alignment change, and you act according to the new alignment, you are showing approval of the new forms action and that is pretty much enough to change your alignment.

Like how humans look like sculptures?

No. Sculptures don't have honey.

[Collin152]

No. Sculptures don't have honey.

If I wasn't so lazy, I'd photoshop evidence on the contrary.
You win this time, Michalangelo's David...

[SilverClawShift]

Inspired by the other lycanthropy thread, where people are talkin' about paladin's falling if they willingly change form as a werewolf.

What about werebears, which are Lawful Good?

See, my group just avoids this whole nonsense of a disease changing your alignment. It's too much to try to process in any kind of comfortable way, and there's no elegant solutions (at least, none we've found).

A good person becomes a werewolf and turns evil? Have they lost free will? Or are they being pushed into evil behavior? And if they're being pushed, are they truly evil? Is it just their evil tendencies being laid bare, their goodness stripped away, and if so is it really fair to EVER inflict on a player character?

And the werebear thing is even weirder, for the reasons mentioned.

Nuts to that.

At our table, Lycanthropy is "The Beast Within" being exposed. Your natural, raw, animal instincts ('tinted' by the type of lycanthropy you're afflicted with) being pushed to the surface with claw and fangs.
An evil person afflicted with lycanthropy will just go on a blood soaked rampage, regardless of what were-animal bit them.
Even a generally normal person, with normal desires and fears, will probably do a fair degree of slaughtering in hybrid form. If they have strong aversions or goals, they might still work towards them in hybrid or animal form, but definately in a more primal fashion.

A TRULY good person, either pious or simply kind hearted, will remain so even as an animal. Though they will be wild. A paladin were-rat will not likely be looking for a SURRENDER while they slink through the alleys, but they will still be tracking down evil creatures and attempting to aid the innocent.

That's us though. Your mileage may vary.