[4e] KotS Review from a returnee

[Awesomologist]

Hi all! Loooong time lurker of GitP, I've finally decided to jump in and give my 2 cents on 4th Edition.
I haven't played a table top RPG since AD&D and that was back in college. My friends and I heard about the new 4e from a piece on NPR. So we got to talking and decided to relive our childhood a little bit. It's not like we ever left "gaming" we just moved towards video games and other activities. So basically everyone around is being reintroduced.
So we got a PHB and Keep on the Shadowfell. Still waiting on the DMG and MM, but between Keep and the PHB we've got most of the ground covered. We played the first encounter a couple of times with the pregens, only our Wizard changed out one of his spells (we're actually going to go through the spellbook stuff soon and see if he should have any more powers). Most of the guys kept their characters and our final party ended up as:
Dwarf Fighter
Half-elf Cleric (Originally our Paladin)
Human Mage
Halfling Rogue
and a Tiefling Warlock (Originally our Warlord, more on that later)
To cut to the chase, we like it.
Combat got flowing pretty easily, we're still catching up on getting the timing down. We like the team mentality. If you go out too far ahead, decide to make a move in combat that the team isn't ready or prepared for then you're in trouble. I keep reading about people unhappy with the game and it just sounds to me like they're either not playing together well in combat or they have an unbalanced party.
It's a little bit of a flaw with the design of KotS that it forces party roles but i think further adventures and a good DM can balance an encounter well once they get used to the system.
We've also started exploring the other classes and powers. Our group has found the Warlord to be pretty useless, in both the pre-gen and player created. Maybe we're not playing the class right. The cleric and fighter just outshine him. For KotS, the way it's designed, you're better off with just an extra cleric or fighter. We have not examined the possibility of a warlord multi-class just yet, but we'll look into it. We got one guy who wants to make him work though, so he'll keep trying at it.
The warlock and the rogue are just ridiculous damage dealers and have potential to each do some single target controlling. Coupled with a Wizard, which you absolutely need, battles flow pretty easily once you get those teams working in tandem. We're loving the new Wizard! We do wish we had another option for a controller. I do wonder why they didn't have the bard in as an arcane Leader/Controller in stead of the weak Warlord Leader/Defender.
The Dragonborn paladin was also a lot of fun. Still not as effective as the fighter, but out shined our warlord (sorry to hate on the warlord so much). In the second run we switch out for the cleric since we had dropped our warlord. We'll revisit the paladin though, he's got a lot of promise and better than any paladin we remember playing. Haven't tried the ranger yet, i think our rogue and warlock are just having too much fun playing those striker types. Cleric and fighter as previously mentioned are just standards. we also found the battle oriented Cleric was, say it with me now, better than the warlord (okay thats the last warlord rip).
As for the module, it lays out some really fun scenarios. I'm not going to spoil anything so i won't discuss specific battles. We have not had any TPK's! although the party has come close many times. As DM i've found that the monster setup, being also "team" oriented works as a great way to make interesting encounters. Especially if you love using traps and hazards! It's so great having a skill system that matters in an encounter. Having the rogue trying to disable one trap and our warlock another (some of you can guess as to which encounter that is) was a wow moment with our party. I'm looking forward to designing more trap and monster encounters.
However we did find the module was sorely light on the role-playing end. As a returning DM i found the adventure guide lacking in, well, guidance. The have a couple of pages of fluff but none of it was very applicable without pushing the players towards one end or the other making it feel a bit linear at time. Granted that could just be me and my rusty DMing. I just recall old modules with more flavor. We're making due, and on the second start to the campaign once we dumped the Warlord... (I'm sorry i couldn't resist one more dig) and added my own hook and changing a few things. We didn't finish all the way the first time, but the second time was just a solid good time.
Whether or not 4e is for everyone, i don't know. In all we found the combat to be enjoyable, and the role-playing end to be expanded (just because you add mini's and maps to the game, it doesn't make it more real without some good storytelling substance). We agree the game does "feel" more slick, like a computer game, but less World of Warcraft, and more like a table top version of Final Fantasy Tactics.
But thats just our take.

[SCPRedMage]

Actually, on the topic of the pre-gen Wizard, I don't think that they include all of the cantrips, and they only give you one daily, whereas you're supposed get two and prepare one of 'em...

[Awesomologist]

Actually they do give 2 powers: Acid Arrows and Sleep. You're right about the cantrips, and believe me they're actually useful!

[KillianHawkeye]

... more like a table top version of Final Fantasy Tactics.

You just game me a GREAT IDEA!!! Aptly named, Awesomologist.

And where can one such as myself get a degree in Awesomology?

[Awesomologist]

You just game me a GREAT IDEA!!! Aptly named, Awesomologist.

And where can one such as myself get a degree in Awesomology?

All you have to do is to know when something is awesome, study why it is awesome, then share the awesomeness with everyone.

[Tormsskull]

When I read the title, Re: [4e] KotS Review from a returnee, I thought it was a review by a person that returned KotS to the store because it was that bad, hehe.

I'm looking forward to using KotS on my group next week during vacation. Should give everyone a solid taste of what 4e is like.

[SamTheCleric]

All you have to do is to know when something is awesome, study why it is awesome, then share the awesomeness with everyone.

I'm not sure I want all you people standing around and studying me.

Keep is fun... I'm having a blast running it.

[Awesomologist]

When I read the title, Re: [4e] KotS Review from a returnee, I thought it was a review by a person that returned KotS to the store because it was that bad, hehe.

I'm looking forward to using KotS on my group next week during vacation. Should give everyone a solid taste of what 4e is like.

Yeah the title read funny to me as well. It's more of a review of 4e using KotS. I just kept noticing so many threads of people bashing it and i can't help but wonder if they every fully gave it a shot.
Granted my group hasn't played D&D for a few years so perhaps we're just observing the game differently than every day players.

[SamTheCleric]

Yeah the title read funny to me as well. It's more of a review of 4e using KotS. I just kept noticing so many threads of people bashing it and i can't help but wonder if they every fully gave it a shot.
Granted my group hasn't played D&D for a few years so perhaps we're just observing the game differently than every day players.

It's not that there are few people who like it... its that the majority of the civil discussions on 4es flaws and merits get pushed down to page eleventy with all of the negativity that has sprouted on the boards.

Apparantly, we like to argue.

[Duke of URL]

Apparantly, we like to argue.

No we don't!

[palcosmo]

Awesomologist: Hey, if you have a chance, would you mind clarifying why the Warlord didn't really pan out for your party? What specifically didn't work?

I'm just curious -- DMing my first 4E campaign soon, and I have a player who wants to give the Warlord a whirl.

I imagine that the Warlord gets the most bang for his buck when he has another front-liner in the party. Maybe a rogue who would appreciate something like the free shifting granted by the "Wolf Pack Tactics" at-will power to help get into flanking positions...? Did that not happen with your halfling rogue?

Regardless, thanks for the insight into KotS!

[MammonAzrael]

I haven't run KotS yet, but I'm planning to segue into it from the DMG startup adventure.

In general on the post, I'm glad to hear you guys are loving it. I expect this to be one of the few modules I run before we start a campaign of my design.

More specifically, what did you find lacking about the Warlord? I've got a couple Fighters who were thinking about making one before going Fighter, and after our first session are thinking about rerolling as Warlords. (They didn't do too hot, partly because half the party kept forgetting half their class features, and because it was 2 Defenders, 2 Strikers, and 1 Controller, no Leader. Yeah, they're gonna have a tough time with the White Dragon ) Like palcosmo said, I would think the Warlord would be a big boon to Strikers, especially Rogues, allowing for more Sneak Attacking, and damage in general, as well as some healing boosts.