[4e] Combat Time?

[McMindflayer]

Right, so I have played a couple of sessions of 4th edition and I have had a complaint by one of my players about how slow combat takes. Now, we've been told 4e is supposed to have more streamlined and faster combat. I was wondering at the times that most other people have been having combats? Me and my mates have combats at around the hour mark. Give or take 15 minutes. It's about the same whether it's a couple of enemies or a few enemies and a bunch of minions.


Speaking of minions. One extra question: The same player in my group "informs" me that you are supposed to inform your players before combat who is a minion and who is a monster with some hitpoints. He tells me this is so they don't waste their encounter powers on one hitpoint creatures. What is everybody elses opinions?

[THAC0]

Our combats have flowed pretty smoothly thus far. Is it maybe a factor of people not yet being familiar with the system/abilities? There's always a bit of a learning curve. I haven't timed anything, but I've gotten through... three to four encounters, one skill challenge plus all the non-fighting stuff in an evening. An evening being something like twoish hours I think.

As far as minions, the DM has never specifically said, but the fluff he gives usually provides a good sense, if you are paying attention.

[Tormsskull]

What is everybody elses opinions?

That sounds really, really lame. I mean, how would the character's know? I haven't read the 4e DMG through and through yet though, so it might tell you to do so.

[Mike_G]

Speaking of minions. One extra question: The same player in my group "informs" me that you are supposed to inform your players before combat who is a minion and who is a monster with some hitpoints. He tells me this is so they don't waste their encounter powers on one hitpoint creatures. What is everybody elses opinions?

I would say it's not required, and shouldn't be expected as a rule, but chances are if there's one big bad guy and his minions, it won't be too tough to tell the difference. Minions are supposed to be the Redshirt bodyguards for the Bad Guy With A Name. Their purpose is to make the PC's burn actions or suffer slow attrition of damage, not act as decoys to draw early expenditure of Once Daily abilities.

[Oracle_Hunter]

Right, so I have played a couple of sessions of 4th edition and I have had a complaint by one of my players about how slow combat takes. Now, we've been told 4e is supposed to have more streamlined and faster combat. I was wondering at the times that most other people have been having combats? Me and my mates have combats at around the hour mark. Give or take 15 minutes. It's about the same whether it's a couple of enemies or a few enemies and a bunch of minions.


Speaking of minions. One extra question: The same player in my group "informs" me that you are supposed to inform your players before combat who is a minion and who is a monster with some hitpoints. He tells me this is so they don't waste their encounter powers on one hitpoint creatures. What is everybody elses opinions?

No, you shouldn't tell your players which baddies are minions, but if you're using them, the players should be able to figure out who is who after a couple of rounds. Generally, the dudes with crappy weapons and armor who are at the front of the battle? Minions. Guys giving them orders? Not Minions. They'll learn as they get more used to the system, I'm sure.

Now, I haven't found combat takes too long, but perhaps I haven't run enough of them. One obvious situation may be that you're using too many minions and your PCs don't have area powers or cleave. Since minions are kind of hard to hit, using too many may make things seem like they're at a crawl.

Otherwise, it depends on what your players are used to. If you played a lot of Epic games where they just spammed Save-or-Sucks until something stuck, then yes, this takes longer. But compared to lower-level combats, I can't say the time difference is much.

[Vortling]

The combats I've been a part of have taken anywhere from 2-3 hours. That's over irc though without any mapping programs. If at all possible you should use a map program if you play over irc.

As far as the minions go it depends on your players. If they're highly tactical I'd suggest letting them know. Otherwise just describe them and the players will figure it out.

[EvilElitest]

That sounds really, really lame. I mean, how would the character's know? I haven't read the 4e DMG through and through yet though, so it might tell you to do so.

It is written over their heads in funny letters. Just go with us on that. It is like OOTS
from
EE

[shadow_archmagi]

Odd. In my games the powerful monsters charge, just like everyone else, because having your best warrior not fight is stupid. S'like those ninjas who throw their smoke bombs, and then just sit in the rafters gloating until it the smoke clears.

Because its cooler to attack AFTER your distraction.

[ashmanonar]

Speaking of minions. One extra question: The same player in my group "informs" me that you are supposed to inform your players before combat who is a minion and who is a monster with some hitpoints. He tells me this is so they don't waste their encounter powers on one hitpoint creatures. What is everybody elses opinions?

Bull. Too freaking bad if he "wastes" his encounter power. Before, did you have any idea beyond general appearance of toughness that one human might have 1st level commoner HP, and another human was a level 20 Demigod? Not unless you were metagaming horribly, especially with other races or monsters.

Your character wouldn't know right off the bat how many HP an enemy had, just "Hmm, he should take at least 3 or 4 hits to down, maybe 5 or 6. I may need to hit harder." or "Bah, one swipe and the little wuss will go down."

[KillianHawkeye]

Speaking of minions. One extra question: The same player in my group "informs" me that you are supposed to inform your players before combat who is a minion and who is a monster with some hitpoints. He tells me this is so they don't waste their encounter powers on one hitpoint creatures. What is everybody elses opinions?

He just needs to learn not to use big flashy encounter/daily powers in the first round of combat (unless they affect lots of enemies, but those ones are for killing minions anyway).

[erikun]

Bull. Too freaking bad if he "wastes" his encounter power. Before, did you have any idea beyond general appearance of toughness that one human might have 1st level commoner HP, and another human was a level 20 Demigod? Not unless you were metagaming horribly, especially with other races or monsters.

Your character wouldn't know right off the bat how many HP an enemy had, just "Hmm, he should take at least 3 or 4 hits to down, maybe 5 or 6. I may need to hit harder." or "Bah, one swipe and the little wuss will go down."

Agreed. Complaining because you wasted an encounter on a minion is like complaining because you wasted a daily on an enemy with only 3 HP remaining. Yeah, it may suck, but you live and learn.

Besides, knowing the difference between a minion and a regular stock troop is serious metagaming; it sounds like you have a munchkin on your hands. Remember that while your PC's can use their Knowledge skills to get some information about the monsters, game mechanics such as HP, AC, etc. should not be revealed. (Although you can use terms such as "stock troops" or "weak minded" to hint at vulnerabilities.)

[Starbuck_II]

Right, so I have played a couple of sessions of 4th edition and I have had a complaint by one of my players about how slow combat takes. Now, we've been told 4e is supposed to have more streamlined and faster combat. I was wondering at the times that most other people have been having combats? Me and my mates have combats at around the hour mark. Give or take 15 minutes. It's about the same whether it's a couple of enemies or a few enemies and a bunch of minions.

For my first session I DMed: We had much RP going on (getting party together thing), looking for a job (though I gave them an initial plot hook; they wanted to see if any other jobs).

They went with the Cultist hook (cultist summoning Valdun the Demonic Beholder from another plane) instead of the easier Kobold Hall one from DMG.

They fought a Elite Warlock (Cultist messager) Lv 1 as primary encounter (that lead to a note, map, and summoning scroll). He was on top of a building providing cover from ranged.

Than at the cultist lair (Gardmore Abby): 2 caster minions, 1 human Mage (he has +1 robes on for treasure), 2 Thug minions, and 1 human bandit.

Last encounter we had in the session because house was hot: 2 Bjorn Minions and Berserker. There was supposed to be traps in their room, but the party tricked the enemies into coming to them instead.

The game was 2 days in game. And 2 hours out of game. And three encounters.

I made up the Bjorn (minion versions of Berserker), thugs (minions of Bandit), and Caster (Minion version of Mage but with only wizard at will spells).

While each battle was tough (the ranger almost died twice), I found combat go pretty fast.
Party: Gnome Rogue (Binky), Bugbear (Pandarian) Ranger (Ryuu-jin), Tiefling Wizard (Ell from Deathnote), and Warforged Cleric (Wheeljack).

Berserkers really dish out the damage. So did the Mage.

Speaking of minions. One extra question: The same player in my group "informs" me that you are supposed to inform your players before combat who is a minion and who is a monster with some hitpoints. He tells me this is so they don't waste their encounter powers on one hitpoint creatures. What is everybody elses opinions?

Nope, I don't let them know till they are killed.

The players can ask for a perception check maybe, but in general they can't tell metagaming wise.

[Artanis]

Right, so I have played a couple of sessions of 4th edition and I have had a complaint by one of my players about how slow combat takes. Now, we've been told 4e is supposed to have more streamlined and faster combat. I was wondering at the times that most other people have been having combats? Me and my mates have combats at around the hour mark. Give or take 15 minutes. It's about the same whether it's a couple of enemies or a few enemies and a bunch of minions.

From my limited experience, it feels like 4e combat moves faster, and takes about the same amount of table time. By this I mean that if a 3e fight was over in three rounds and took an hour, then a 4e fight would last eight or nine rounds and take an hour. Something like that.

Speaking of minions. One extra question: The same player in my group "informs" me that you are supposed to inform your players before combat who is a minion and who is a monster with some hitpoints. He tells me this is so they don't waste their encounter powers on one hitpoint creatures. What is everybody elses opinions?

It sounds like a cross between a powergamer and a 3e vet who doesn't realize that combat now lasts more than 2 rounds. Tell him that the bad guys that are worth using Encounter/Daily powers on will last enough rounds for him to figure out which ones they are. It won't kill him to wait an extra one round to figure out which bad guys are going to fall over dead when you look at them funny.

[Edea]

The ones I've been in have lasted anywhere from 3-4 hours per combat.

It's harder to have tactical discussions on IRC due to misunderstanding and/or (so far) lack of an interactive map. The DMs I've had needed to resort to Painting a new map every round due to server problems or the fact that they were one-shots.

Also, parties seem to avoid group optimization; they play whatever they want, and take actions independently. While they have every right to do so, this does drag fights out; 4e expects team tactics, and when it doesn't get them, things (at least from my experiences so far) get bogged down.

There has been at least one instance where we decided a battle was basically resolved, and we weren't going to grind out another 200+ hit points of damage (also preserving my sanity in the process). Its defenses were so high we had difficulty hitting him, and while the very start of the encounter was entertaining, by the point where we called it off, I was tired and a bit frustrated (I don't think I was alone, there, either). It wasn't the DM's fault, either; he pulled those monsters straight out of the MM and they were level-appropriate.

As for minions, minion status is the same as any other monster role. If you're not going to announce that the strange monster in black robes with an octopus head is a controller, then you shouldn't announce that the eyeless humanoids with scraggly hair surrounding it are minions. If you decide you -are- announcing monster roles, then it's fine.

[JaxGaret]

Right, so I have played a couple of sessions of 4th edition and I have had a complaint by one of my players about how slow combat takes. Now, we've been told 4e is supposed to have more streamlined and faster combat. I was wondering at the times that most other people have been having combats? Me and my mates have combats at around the hour mark. Give or take 15 minutes. It's about the same whether it's a couple of enemies or a few enemies and a bunch of minions.

4e combat takes about the same amount of time overall as 3e, or a bit faster - it is the individual round that takes less time, but in general there are more rounds per combat. A large portion of that is due to the fact that monsters, and particularly Elites and especially Solos, have too many HP - and that can be fixed via houserule.

Speaking of minions. One extra question: The same player in my group "informs" me that you are supposed to inform your players before combat who is a minion and who is a monster with some hitpoints. He tells me this is so they don't waste their encounter powers on one hitpoint creatures. What is everybody elses opinions?

No, no, a thousand times no. The Minion mechanic is a metagame concept, the PCs have no knowledge of it whatosever beyond an understanding that some enemies don't put up much of a fight; which specific enemies are Minions and which are not is not at all detectable - at least in my games it isn't, since it makes for much better gameplay.

[Reinboom]

It's harder to have tactical discussions on IRC due to misunderstanding and/or (so far) lack of an interactive map. The DMs I've had needed to resort to Painting a new map every round due to server problems or the fact that they were one-shots.

Why not use MapTools or OpenRPG?

Both are free, and both are multiplatform.

[Oracle_Hunter]

Should be noted: battles take much longer if you do not have a battlegrid to work off of. Plus, a party that includes at least one Defender, Leader, and Striker should be sufficiently "optimized" to kill things at a reasonable pace.

[Edea]

Why not use MapTools or OpenRPG?

Both are free, and both are multiplatform.

Tried both of them. Both function on my own computer, but Ive never been able to connect to others in a game reliably (either server time-outs or no route to the host at all/host is completely blocked off). Hamachi doesn't seem to help in these matters.

Should be noted: battles take much longer if you do not have a battlegrid to work off of. Plus, a party that includes at least one Defender, Leader, and Striker should be sufficiently "optimized" to kill things at a reasonable pace.

Sadly, every party I've been has had these things (the striker was usually a Warlock or Rogue instead of a ranger, but otherwise I've seen all the classes used), and while we did eventually win most of the fights (the one fight where we didn't finish was mostly due to just wanting to stop), combat was most certainly not significantly expedited from the last version (at least for us), and honestly took longer than before in most of the cases.

In fact, the only time where a role was omitted was the last combat I played in; there was no Wizard. That was also admittedly one of the fastest fights I've had so far in 4e, but still definitely prolonged.

[The Necroswanso]

Let me help you guys understand the situation better, given the fact that I am said player.

We have four hours to play the game in any one given setting. I hate dungeon crawls. Our games last said four hours. And we go through two combats. Grand, maybe that's how the game is supposed to be played, who knows. But the problem we face is, the last session none of us could manage to roll above a 10 for four turns at a time. Not to mention the DM is not playing with us, he's playing against us.
Now, you may ask what the heck I'm talking about: Said DM, within the first combat, rolled more criticals than the group did the entire game, not to mention cackled like the wicked witch of the west, would constantly be heard remarking, "I just wanted to attack one more time", blames the dice for us dying, etc. Who remembers that episode of Dexter's Lab? That's the game we're playing. DM isn't playing with us, he's playing against us.

Now, given that situation, you'd assume we'd just suck it up. However, should each of us be going unconcious every second round? Should kobolds be hitting us more than we're hitting them? Combat doesn't take an hour because we simply dont have the proper peripherals, we've invested enough money in peripherals to live comfortably for a month. The problem comes in, that simply due to a low dice roll, we are losing. And I know what you're thinking; "But Necroswanson, how do you lose in D&D?" Well, remember when I said our DM was playing against us?
I'm not saying, I should automatically know a monsters job, class, and HP. But there has to be some divining factor between the kobold mage, and a kobold minion. But we aren't being given anything beyond what wepaons they carry. And at that, the caster, is carrying the same weapon as the minion.
Sure, this can get a little complicaed, and as a matter of fact, when five guys are fighting 25, it simply becomes a cluster *&^%$#@!. Now, here's where tactics begin to play in. Yes, we build tactical combat, yes we plot out our actions. But when DM has led us to beleive that my target is not a minion, and I burn my daily on him as he's suppsoed to be the commander, I get a little annoyed when it's the third time. (See: Aerosmith's "Same Old Song and Dance")
Try missing six times in a row and when you have to go all out, you do it against the red shirt whom you've been led to beleive is Capt. Kirk.

It doesn't end there. How many rounds should pass before Second Wind is used? How many rounds should pass before the Cleric is down to his at-will healing that will give me 6 HP back, ONLY IF he hits his target. The cleric, has +2 to hit by the way.
In our group: Usually 4 rounds. Yes, we have a Paladin. But it's hard for the Paladin to heal us when he's surrounded. There's come a problem when we are rendered unconcious, just to be healed, try to stand up, and be hit for double what we healed. Our fighter HAS Cleave, but it still requires a hit. Which requires us to roll above a 13.

I'm not munchkining, in fact every character I have fealt has been too powerful for his level has been retired. I go through more characters than pants. I discourage powergaming and metagaming amongst our group. But in this campaign, our DM is playing against us, and tyring to pass it off as "simply following the rolls and the rules". So, don't let him fool you into thinking I'm just some automatic munchkin, it's insulting. I do questionable thigns in game, but a powergamer, I am not.

[JaxGaret]

Let me help you guys understand the situation better, given the fact that I am said player.

Okay, let's take a look!

We have four hours to play the game in any one given setting. I hate dungeon crawls. Our games last said four hours. And we go through two combats. Grand, maybe that's how the game is supposed to be played, who knows. But the problem we face is, the last session none of us could manage to roll above a 10 for four turns at a time. Not to mention the DM is not playing with us, he's playing against us.

Now, you may ask what the heck I'm talking about: Said DM, within the first combat, rolled more criticals than the group did the entire game, not to mention cackled like the wicked witch of the west, would constantly be heard remarking, "I just wanted to attack one more time", blames the dice for us dying, etc. Who remembers that episode of Dexter's Lab? That's the game we're playing. DM isn't playing with us, he's playing against us.

Sounds like a DM who plays by the rules - except that if the DM rolls "more criticals than the group did the entire game", one must wonder if they were fugding those rolls or not. Do you trust your DM not to fudge dice, in their favor or in yours?

Now, given that situation, you'd assume we'd just suck it up. However, should each of us be going unconcious every second round? Should kobolds be hitting us more than we're hitting them?

Sure, if the enemies are more powerful than you are, yes. But that has nothing to do with the system.

Combat doesn't take an hour because we simply dont have the proper peripherals, we've invested enough money in peripherals to live comfortably for a month. The problem comes in, that simply due to a low dice roll, we are losing. And I know what you're thinking; "But Necroswanson, how do you lose in D&D?" Well, remember when I said our DM was playing against us?

This is starting more and more to sound like a problem with your DM.

I'm not saying, I should automatically know a monsters job, class, and HP. But there has to be some divining factor between the kobold mage, and a kobold minion. But we aren't being given anything beyond what wepaons they carry. And at that, the caster, is carrying the same weapon as the minion.

If you're talking about Kobold Wyrmpriests vs. Kobold Minions, the flavor description couldn't be more different - Wyrmpriests wear boneskull masks and other various accoutrements that immediately identify them as casters.

Not every encounter should be that way, of course - why should you always have cues as to who are the casters, who are the weak ones, etc?

Sure, this can get a little complicaed, and as a matter of fact, when five guys are fighting 25, it simply becomes a cluster *&^%$#@!.

Five on 25? Unless the vast majority of those 25 were Minions, this again sounds like your DM simply having it in for your party.

Now, here's where tactics begin to play in. Yes, we build tactical combat, yes we plot out our actions. But when DM has led us to beleive that my target is not a minion, and I burn my daily on him as he's suppsoed to be the commander, I get a little annoyed when it's the third time. (See: Aerosmith's "Same Old Song and Dance")
Try missing six times in a row and when you have to go all out, you do it against the red shirt whom you've been led to beleive is Capt. Kirk.

It doesn't end there. How many rounds should pass before Second Wind is used? How many rounds should pass before the Cleric is down to his at-will healing that will give me 6 HP back, ONLY IF he hits his target. The cleric, has +2 to hit by the way.
In our group: Usually 4 rounds. Yes, we have a Paladin. But it's hard for the Paladin to heal us when he's surrounded. There's come a problem when we are rendered unconcious, just to be healed, try to stand up, and be hit for double what we healed. Our fighter HAS Cleave, but it still requires a hit. Which requires us to roll above a 13.

I'm not munchkining, in fact every character I have fealt has been too powerful for his level has been retired. I go through more characters than pants. I discourage powergaming and metagaming amongst our group. But in this campaign, our DM is playing against us, and tyring to pass it off as "simply following the rolls and the rules". So, don't let him fool you into thinking I'm just some automatic munchkin, it's insulting. I do questionable thigns in game, but a powergamer, I am not.

All I'm going to say is: take it up with your DM or find a new game. If you're not playing the game you want to be playing, do something about it besides complaining about it here.

[Kurald Galain]

Now, we've been told 4e is supposed to have more streamlined and faster combat. I was wondering at the times that most other people have been having combats?

I have not noticed it being particularly faster, no.

Speaking of minions. One extra question: The same player in my group "informs" me that you are supposed to inform your players before combat who is a minion and who is a monster with some hitpoints.

Definitely not, that is pure meta-gaming. Besides, he can already use any attack power to find out (if he hits and the monster gets one-shotted, it was a mook).