XP or no XP?

[Deth Muncher]

In all the campaigns I've been in (which, admittedly, isn't that many), the DM has handed out levels due to the actual experience of playing, not "Oh, you're at Q XP. You need to kill 5 Orcs." (Well, except once, and that was just being silly because I'd missed a session where everyone leveled up. ONE ORC! ARGH.) And on that note, item creation. Why does that burn XP? Shouldn't you gain XP from going through the process of making something? Admittedly, I see why they do this so that you don't have PCs spending a month of in-game game-time to make all sorts of uber-goodies, but still. Burning XP to do stuff like that?

My question to you, Posters in the Playground, is how do you, as PCs or DMs, handle this?

[Eldariel]

Item creation = you imbue your own life energy (exp) to empower the item magically. That's how I understand it anyways. As for the other question, I do not exactly understand what you're asking. That seems like the rational way; give exp for what you've been through - the encounter tables are dumb.

[Deth Muncher]

As for the other question, I do not exactly understand what you're asking. That seems like the rational way; give exp for what you've been through - the encounter tables are dumb.

What I mean is, rather than saying "Ok, this green dragon is worth 5k XP. There are 3 people fighting, you each get 1666XP, with the remainder XP going Fighter McMeatshield," you go "Ok, you beat the green dragon. You all participated, and prior to this, you've done a few minor quests and beaten up a local gang of goblins. Everyone gain a level."

Or, possibly clearer, to hand out levels without tallying down every experience point gained from everything (like I mentioned in my example, "Ok, you're 5 Orcs short of a level. Go to it."

[shadow_archmagi]

No XP. Just a sorta vague

"Okay your better now."

As a result, we went from 4 to 14 fairly quickly.

[Tormsskull]

I do exact points. And if someone misses a session chances are good they are riding behind for the rest of the campaign (though I do mostly RP campaigns so exact level isn't as important).

[Deth Muncher]

I do exact points. And if someone misses a session chances are good they are riding behind for the rest of the campaign (though I do mostly RP campaigns so exact level isn't as important).

See, the way we fixed this in my previous campaign was with the oh-so glorious "Story XP" (or, in my case, beating down a single Orc.) Basically, people who missed a day were expected to meet up with the DM before the next session to embark on some sort of miniquest to make up the XP. And, of course, when I say XP, I use it in the "not necessarily the XP gotten from besting a monster, but rather the actual experience of doing something" sense.

[erikun]

I do XP. After all, I don't see a real difference between "you have 100 XP until next level" and "you have 10 HP until fully healed". We're already monkeying around with numbers, and players tend to get excited when they know they're getting closer to the next level. If I wanted a system that didn't use XP, I wouldn't be bothering with D&D.

That said, XP is gained for overcoming challanges and completing adventures. If the party just completed an adventure and everyone needs just 100 XP for next level, then the adventure was just worth another 100 XP per character. Besides, there's plenty of things to do besides killing orcs. You could do a small dragon hunt, or clear the cultists out of the abandoned temple real quick, or deliver the "absolutely safe" package for the local noble.

Also: 2e had you gain XP for making magical items. The party cleric generally shut himself in the temple for a few months until he equipped the whole party with magic gear... and got a few levels for himself. That wasn't too great of a system, either.

[SilverClawShift]

Vague here.

Our DM lets us know exactly what level we are (and usually won't hit us with level draining effects, just because they're too much bookwork and not enough benefit from his point of view).

We can hover at a specific level indefinately, depending on what section of the world/story we're in. If we need to have trouble fighting skeletons, we'll stay low level regardless of how long we play.
It sounds like it might be annoying, but it's really not. If the story calls for high levels, or a range of levels, we'll advance appropriately. It's all about what we're looking to play and what we're hoping to acheive.

As for item creation and XP costs, we basically have a player/DM truce on such things. We're free to make items in the game world, provided we don't try to abuse his lack of XP penny-pinching. If we tried to hole up in a dark corner and make items until we had more than we could carry, he'd smack us with the fist of an angry god. Otherwise, he'll let us make what we're setting out to make.

[UglyPanda]

I like doing exact XP since sometimes I just don't have any story reason for the PCs to be stronger and might forget to let them level up.

I had a DM (I was only willing to play two sessions with him, by the way) who proudly stated he wasn't doing exact XP. What he really meant was that he refused to calculate XP since he was intentionally bad at D&D math (Being a munchkin and all) and that he was banning magic item creation while screwing up the craft rules. He then proceeded to replace XP with a system that encouraged sucking up to him and his playstyle.

[Deth Muncher]

As for item creation and XP costs, we basically have a player/DM truce on such things. We're free to make items in the game world, provided we don't try to abuse his lack of XP penny-pinching. If we tried to hole up in a dark corner and make items until we had more than we could carry, he'd smack us with the fist of an angry god. Otherwise, he'll let us make what we're setting out to make.

This is much the same as I believe my current campaign is going to be. Basically, we've been admitted to the local mages guild, and have full access to all their goodies and labs, and I think so long as I don't go and try to make Spheres of Annihilation, I'll be good.

Off Topic: Didn't you say you were going to do a diary of your current campaign? If you still are, could I grab a link to that? Your stories are hilarious.

[SilverClawShift]

Off Topic: Didn't you say you were going to do a diary of your current campaign? If you still are, could I grab a link to that? Your stories are hilarious.

I haven't really had as much time as I wanted, and the few times I came to start typing something up, the server was always too busy. Which is a shame, cause it's been an entertaining run.

[Deth Muncher]

I haven't really had as much time as I wanted, and the few times I came to start typing something up, the server was always too busy. Which is a shame, cause it's been an entertaining run.

DRAT! That's a pity.

[wadledo]

I never let my players go up a level.

I just say you won't go up any levels until I say so, then I never say so.
The system works!

[Lochar]

I never let my players go up a level.

I just say you won't go up any levels until I say so, then I never say so.
The system works!

All the games I've seen you run never make it long enough to gain XP, much less level.


Also, I play the numbers, but basically arbitrarily hand them out to put my players where I want them. That way, we both get what we want. :P

[RTGoodman]

As a player I've only ever had one DM that actually did by-the-book XP. The rest just sort of said, "Alright, it's been a few sessions - everyone level up." One of those others, though, actually did give out numerical XP (including extra for stuff like getting him a soda or other inane things), but ignored our actual XP and just said "Grow a level" when he felt like it.

As a DM, I keep track of XP by-the-book mostly. I do all the charts and whatnot, but I'll throw in some extra XP when players had a more difficult time (i.e., terrain was against them, etc.), when they complete a major adventure or quest, and occasionally just for really good roleplaying.

[ghost_warlock]

I do XP by the book but I tend to award a lot of ad hoc/role-playing/story awards so 30-60% of the XP needed level comes from those. Many of the people I've played with in the past (and myself, when I get to play) see leveling as a goal/reward in-and-of-itself so I like to let my players know how much progress they've made.

The one-orc-from-leveling scenario is one I specifically avoid with ad hoc awards. I'd rather just give everyone an extra 150-200 XP than have one or two characters running around looking for one last orc to kill before they level. That kind of thing may be fine in WoW or other "RPGs" where monsters respawn but I feel it's innappropriate for games with a semi-realistic story/environment.

[Deth Muncher]

The one-orc-from-leveling scenario is one I specifically avoid with ad hoc awards.

To be fair to my DM, that was him just being funny. I'd completed my miniquest, and I ask:
"So, do I get a level?"
"Nope, you still need one more orc."
"Are you bloody serious?"
"Yep. Looks like you only killed X many last game. You're still short one."
"Ugh...::walks back to the woods, finds a lone orc, Fireballs said orc:: HAPPY NOW?!"

[Flickerdart]

My DM just let us level whenever he was too busy to do the session. Since we were unoptimized amateurs, that worked very well for us.

[Chronos]

Also: 2e had you gain XP for making magical items. The party cleric generally shut himself in the temple for a few months until he equipped the whole party with magic gear... and got a few levels for himself. That wasn't too great of a system, either.

Then again, though 2e was very vague on just what you needed to do to make an item. It could be anything from "Throw X gold pieces into the forge, spend a week, and you've got your +5 intelligent vorpal dancing sword of dragonslaying" to "Bottle a droplet of sunshine and mix with the laugh of a rose, ferment it for a month under the rays of the full moon, and you've got a potion of minor healing".

[Tsadrin]

As a DM I always use exact XP rewards. Since the systems I use (D&D and AD&D) balance classes by requiring different amounts of experience to level it's important.

There are only three ways to get experience in my games. Defeating monsters, using magic items, and spending earned treasure. In the early days I went BTB and just rewarded XP for treasure earned and monsters killed but an article in The Dragon (D&D Option: Orgies, Inc. by Jon Pickens in Vol. 2 #4) came in handy when the adventurers became richer than kings. I adapted the article to my needs very quickly after I read it.

Players must spend any loot they find to earn XP for it. It can be tithed or sacrificed (for the pious), used for research (for the bookish), given to your community (for the clannish), or spent on ale and whores (for the rest of us). It can also be spent on buying strongholds and other 'investments' but those are not near as much fun. The fact is though that it must be spent and not kept locked away easy to access to be worth experience.

edit: grammar

[AslanCross]

I do XP by the book and hand out a lot of ad-hoc XP. However, there was one time where I just told the players to level up once because they hadn't progressed as quickly as I thought they would, and it was too much trouble to downgrade all the encounters I'd prepared.

[Reinboom]

I set XP to the party, rather than the individual players.
I can't stand players being at different points. However, I've discovered that XP progression does 'add' something to the game - it gives the more mechanical focused an increasing goal in addition to story progression, providing a safety net for interest when the story just didn't captivate them enough from the last session.

I keep a small webpage up that gives name and location information that the party would know, the current XP, and so on.


For crafting (and spell XP) I use:
http://wiki.faxcelestis.net/index.ph...erience_Buffer

[Timeras]

In our group the DM calculates XP after each session. If you start a session just 50 XP from next level, you will not level up before the end of the session.

Since we only meet for DND when everyone has time, nobody will fall behind because he didn´t get XP.
However, when we were 3rd level, our group lost some players and we added new ones. They started with the minimum XP for level 3 while the two remaining players from the original group had a few more. This means that sometimes we level one session earlier than the others wich is not really a problem. (And we had bit more money, because the other remaining player still carried the loot and three guys disappeared without taking their share of it.)

[Saph]

I've played in campaigns which do both.

In our D&D 3.5 World's Largest Dungeon campaign, the DM sends out XP totals by email after each session. It's our job to keep track and tell if we've gained a level.

In our Star Wars Saga campaign, the DM just says, "Okay, you've all gone up a level" every three sessions or so.

On the whole, I prefer the first method, as it's less arbitrary. The problem with the second method is that the characters don't learn or advance until the DM wants them to, which can be frustrating, and we never really know how close we are to getting better at things.

- Saph

[DemonSlayer]

I agree with Saph on this one. I've played both those games as well, and I'd rather have the objective points-based system than a GM telling me "well your roleplaying was this good, so you'll get so and so much XP."

I want to be awarded, not judged, no matter how just the DM is.

As for magic items/spells, I just ignore those XP costs entirely. Of course there can be other repercussions... I believe it was 2nd edition in which you would anger a powerful outsider if you ever intentionally harmed or killed your familiar, just because you wanted a different one. In 3.5 you pay an XP cost whenever your familiar dies... Which to me, is a much better way of dealing with it than what's being done now.

[xPANCAKEx]

i prefer being awarded too - it encourages the game. The players who make the effort usually make it more exciting, and should be rewarded as such

[Tallis]

I use xp, but I only give out half the recommended xp for defeating monsters. Then I give out story and rping xp. This encourages my players to have a backstory to base their rping off of which I like.

For magic items I use xp cost and also require special materials which can require a seperate quest in some cases. I've just always felt that magic items should be something special, not just something you buy at the store.

[El_Jefe]

To be fair to my DM, that was him just being funny. I'd completed my miniquest, and I ask:
"So, do I get a level?"
"Nope, you still need one more orc."
"Are you bloody serious?"
"Yep. Looks like you only killed X many last game. You're still short one."
"Ugh...::walks back to the woods, finds a lone orc, Fireballs said orc:: HAPPY NOW?!"

That is hysterical...

As for me, I sort of follow the encounter tables, but I also give small awards for creative playing (player: So I jump from the stairs, try to grapple the flying gargoyle, then make sure he hits the ground first, kind of like Jason Bourne did...DM: You do realize gargoyles are made of stone? Player: Oh sh...) and puzzle solving, solving conflicts through means other than combat, etc. And I also give story awards (finding the long lost secret vault, killing the zhentarim wizard, etc.).

[Renegade Paladin]

The XP system has one major advantage: With XP, if you're behind a level for whatever reason (having died is a popular one in some of the games I play in) you get more XP for a given challenge than the higher-level characters around you, so you'll eventually catch up. If the DM just says "Everybody gain a level" every so often and you're behind, you will perpetually be behind.

[DemonSlayer]

This encourages my players to have a backstory to base their rping off of which I like.

Is it really important what the DM likes? Don't get me wrong, I'm all for the characters with vastly worked out background. In fact, I once wrote a background for a character of mine which came up to about 25 pages. Other players didn't use that many words, but the point was we had fun together.

If players don't care much for expanding on their character's background, then that's their choice and I'm not giong to punish them for it by giving others more xp or some such silliness, simply because they fit my playing style better.

I've just always felt that magic items should be something special, not just something you buy at the store.

That largely depends on the number of such stores you place in your campaign . You still need to be a spellcaster to make magic items, so if there's not that many spellcasters around (or they simply don't WANT to toil away on magical trinkets for the rest of their lives), then there's not going to be many magic shops either.