sorcerer vs beguiler vs rogue

[quiet1mi]

I am going to play in my friend's Eberron campaign and I was wondering which is better for a support role... a changeling beguiler or changeling rogue or a changeling sorcerer...

I chose changeling for a few reasons, the biggest reason was their shape shifting ability at will, that never gets old and the lack of dragon marks, that are too confusing for me to optimize so I do not want to deal with them..

[wadledo]

Here's my simple rule of thumb:

Sorcerer= Fireball Monster

Beguiler= Charm Monster

Rogue= Sneak Attack Monster

It really all depends on what you want to do.

Lots of magic, medium to none non-combat support? Sorcerer.

Good amount of magic(mostly situational though), large amount of non-combat support? Beguiler.

No magic, but better than the other two at almost everything not magic related? Rogue.

[Chronos]

It depends on what you mean by "support". Both a sorcerer and a rogue can provide support, but of completely different types.

That said, the beguiler is pretty much the best of both worlds. Sure, they have a limited spell list, but they're mostly pretty good spells, and 6 skill points and their broad skill list lets them fill in the rogue role quite nicely as well. The only drawback of beguiler compared to sorcerer or rogue is that you won't do much damage, but damage doesn't win battles in 3.x, anyway (and it's completely useless outside of battles).

[Solo]

Beguilers have a lot of enchantment and illusion spells, less things like Disintigrate and Flesh to Stone.

[AjaxTorbin]

as having played each of those three thikng i feell qualified to respond to this.

and that answer is it depends on what you wish your 'backup' role to be. (i say backup because those are mostly 'backup type characters)

begiler is nice. the one i played i took improved feint, so i could feint twice a round if i wished. then i took adaptive flanker, which alowed me to choose from what space i 'stood' for flanking porpases.
with this build i made a very nice flanking buddy character, i provided a flanking buddy who could throw in the odd charm once in a while. all while trying to silver tounge away most problems. (i convinced a beholder to attack a dragon at one point)
i would say this character is great if you want a surviver, your real 'con man' as it were. if you do play one a tip: when the goings get tough, the beguiler gets going, and invisabilty is your friend

Sorcerer. unless you have a prestige class in mind i would be carful with this one. these have a tendincy to become 'one trick ponys' as in, 'Oh look, the Sorc did another fireball, who saw that comming?'

rogue. rogue changeling. allways the cheese this is. if you choose this one, much fun you will have, to paraphrase master yoda. first, you have GOT to be Chaotic Netural,then the fun starts. if you do it right the party will never know who, or what you really are. and then theres the whole side job; theft.
whenever you're in town you can ripoff the odd house or two.
and then if you get a suit of glamered armor, (the one that alows you to change its apperance at will) you can have fun in combat. IE, you sneak off and comback looking EXACTLY like another Hobgoblin. (hijinks then ensue)

but in the end there are two main things for you to consider:
1 what YOU want to play IE what you think you would have the most fun playing.
2 what would work well with the party and your group.

[Nebo_]

The sorcerer will provide the best support, depending on your spell selection.

[Solo]

Sorcerer. unless you have a prestige class in mind i would be carful with this one. these have a tendincy to become 'one trick ponys' as in, 'Oh look, the Sorc did another fireball, who saw that comming?'

If only there was some sort of guide for sorcerers...

[Tempest Fennac]

Would you be using the Racial Substitution levels if you picked the Rogue? I know Changeling Rogues get a couple of extra skill points and some other skills, but at least 1 substitution costs you Trapfinding. (Crystal Keep's down at the minute, so I can't check the class at the minute).

[Chronicled]

Beguilers are possibly the most fun class to play, if your DM isn't hostile to a character who can sidestep the plot. They can be quite difficult to kill, and do a great support job debuffing (they have a few buffs too) in combat. The real place they shine is out of combat support. Unlike what AjaxTorbin said, you shouldn't worry about feinting in combat; in fact, other than his last paragraph, his advice isn't really accurate (Sorcerers as one-trick ponies? Only if you are trying to make one that way.)

Would you be using the Racial Substitution levels if you picked the Rogue? I know Changeling Rogues get a couple of extra skill points and some other skills, but at least 1 substitution costs you Trapfinding. (Crystal Keep's down at the minute, so I can't check the class at the minute).

But it lets you take 10 on Diplomacy, Bluff, Gather Info, and Sense Motive. In addition to other bonuses AND 10 skill points. One of the best racial substitution levels out there. Hardly begins to qualify as "cheese," though.

[Kurald Galain]

Beguilers are possibly the most fun class to play,

I second that; in my opinion, the beguiler combines the best parts of the sorcerer and the rogue. Well, unless you want blasting spells or sneak attack.

I would actually ignore the beguiler's Cloaked and Surprise Casting abilities; they're nice when they happen, but the bonuses they give are too small to warrant building your character around. Instead I'd recommend spending feats on metamagic, perhaps a reserve or two, and arcane disciple. And imp init, of course.

[Tempest Fennac]

Wouldn't the loss of Trapfinding be a problem unless someone else in the group could do it? Apart from that it is quite a good substitution. For anyone who doesn't know about Crysttal Keep, it's mentioned on page 103 of http://www.crystalkeep.com/d20/rules...asses-Base.pdf .

[Kurald Galain]

Wouldn't the loss of Trapfinding be a problem unless someone else in the group could do it?

Beguilers do have trapfinding.

[Tempest Fennac]

Sorry about being unclear (I was refering to the Changeling Racial Substitute levels).

[Reinboom]

Sorry about being unclear (I was refering to the Changeling Racial Substitute levels).

Or a wand of summon monster instead.

[Tempest Fennac]

The DM could easily get around that method by having traps which instantly rearm themselves as woon as they go off.

[Jack_Simth]

The DM could easily get around that method by having traps which instantly rearm themselves as woon as they go off.

Once you locate the trap, it's dead. There are other ways to nullify a trap than trapfinding - they can be physically destroyed, for instance. This is where reserve feats come in handy.

[Tempest Fennac]

What sort of Reserve Feats would help with traps?

[Chronicled]

I second that; in my opinion, the beguiler combines the best parts of the sorcerer and the rogue. Well, unless you want blasting spells or sneak attack.

I would actually ignore the beguiler's Cloaked and Surprise Casting abilities; they're nice when they happen, but the bonuses they give are too small to warrant building your character around. Instead I'd recommend spending feats on metamagic, perhaps a reserve or two, and arcane disciple. And imp init, of course.

A few other top-notch ones are Unsettling Enchantment (CM) [give enemies -2 AC, -2 to hit for a round even if they make the save against your Enchantments], Mastery of Twisted Shadow (PGtE) [Give yourself concealment for free whenever you cast an Illusion spell, for rounds=spell's level], and Versatile Spellcaster (RotD) [Look ma, I'm a Warlock! Seriously, running out of useful spells when you have this feat is hard to do as a Beguiler.]. The Beguiler's Handbook on the WotC boards also has some great suggestions.

Edit: Oh, and Action Surge (I'd initially missed that you were in Eberron). Action Surge is just too good to not take, especially as a Beguiler--since you don't make attack rolls, you only really need Action Points to boost the important saving throws. Actions are the most valuable resource in D&D, and an easy source of extra ones is superb.

[Chronos]

There are a bunch of other classes that get trapfinding at first level, though. So you take the first level of rogue with the substitution level, then you dip ninja (or factotum, or beguiler, or spellthief, or psychic rogue, or scout), and you haven't really lost anything. And I think that rogue is the favored class for changelings, so you wouldn't even take an xp penalty.

[Burley]

I, personally, would say Rogue for the sneaky and Sorcerer for the Magicks. Beguiler is a great class, don't get me wrong, but mixing that with Changeling will probably have you stealing the spotlight instead of supporting, which will annoy your DM, or your party mates, or both. (One of my players is a Doppleganger Beguiler, and his spells are ending battles during the first round, and he usually wins initiative. I'm giving Iron Will to dinosaurs, just to keep them from falling under his control...)

What sort of Reserve Feats would help with traps?

There's one in Complete Mage that lets you summon an Earth Elemental as long as you have an [Earth] spell. Same thing with [Air], [Fire], and [Water]. There are lots of reserve feats that'd help a Sorcerer...but I don't think any that'd help a Beguiler. Except maybe the one that blinds an enemy...

[Frosty]

What kind of game was your DM running? A doppleganger Beguiler should be sucking, not dominating. Level Adjustments are crap for spellcasters. It may be that the Dm keeps on running encounters with NO will saves whatsoever, which could be a problem, but still, go changeling, not doppleganger.

[Tempest Fennac]

Frosty, quiet1mi is using a Changeling. Thanks for explaining about the reserve feats (they sound really powerful). In regards to taking your 2nd level as a different skill monkey class for Trapfinding, how would you justify that from a fluff perspective? (I could understand a different type of class fitting in, but I'm not sure about taking levels in similar classes).

[Jerthanis]

I'm of the opinion that Beguilers > Wizards below level 10, even outside their supposed specialty of mind-affecting magic. They have Glitterdust, Solid Fog, Haste, Slow, Improved Invisibility and several other encounter-ending abilities along with their full-skillmonkey skillset that has solid synergy with their casting stat. They gain access to more spells than a wizard can reasonably hope to have in his book, and can cast them spontaneously as they need them off that list. Admittedly, past level 10 or so they really start losing out in the long run over other full casters, but if you're not going higher, you'll be golden.

It takes brutal cheese to make a sorcerer better than a beguiler at anything significant below level 10 and the beguiler will most likely come within a hairsbreadth of a rogue in pure skill.

[Frosty]

Even above level 10, Beguilers are never useless. Advanced learning is the key. Pick the right spell for the job. also, some DMs allow Eccletic learning in place of Advanced learning. Then you REALLY have options. Your beguiler being able to sling around Orb spells or a Disintegrate? Golden. Or polymorph? Hell ya.

It takes brutal cheese to make a sorcerer better than a beguiler at anything significant below level 10.

Sorcerers are better at blasting certainly. Is blasting significant below level 10?

[Jack_Simth]

What sort of Reserve Feats would help with traps?

Elemental Summong - lets you summon a Small/Medium/Large (based on the spell level) elemental (pick one of Earth, Air, Fire, Water) as long as you have a Conjouration(Summoning) spell prepared (or, for a spontaneous caster, known with a free slot of that level) of 4th/6th/8th level or higher. Basically, this one gives you a way to trigger traps. There's some limits (it vanishes if it's not within 30 feet of you at the end of your turn, you can only have one out at a time, the summoning effect ends after a number of rounds equal to the level of the spell you're using to power it). Use it every round, and have an earth elemental run ahead of you. This will find you basically all traps that aren't particularly discriminatory or subtle - and basically all of the traps that'll be discriminatory enough to ignore an elemental, or subtle enough that you're not likely to see the effect on an elemental will be magical in nature; for those, you use Arcane Sight to find them (there's a few exceptions - poison spread on doorknobs, for instance - but those you can bypass simply by having your elemental open all doors, and avoiding touching stuff directly).

Then you just pick up one of the direct-damage reserve feats so that you can physically destroy the trap once it is located. Any one of Fiery Burst, Invisible Needle, or Acidic Splatter will generally take care of it.

Now, your DM can build against the tactic - a discriminatory magic trap with that nifty 1st level, days/level, Magic Aura spell on it will still catch you - but you'll get 99% of the traps in the game with no roll of consequence in this manner ... assuming you don't mind being noisy about it and taking your time.

All of these feats are from in Complete Mage, by the way.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

If I may:

Sorcerers can be the best at buffing and party support, particularly when backed up by War Weaver. Everyone's got craptons of buffs. Repeatable for an insane number of times, since you're a sorcerer and not a wizard. War Weaver lets you drop a NUMBER of buffs on the whole PARTY as a single move action. Choose the right ones, and dayum. This gets even better when you get to pick up things like Arcane Disciple to pick up the few buffs clerics get that Sorcerer's don't get access to.

Rogues are skillmonkeys and situational damage output. With the right build, they can compete with even a FB build as far as raw damage output, as long as your opponent isn't immune to precision-based damage. Paired with something that gives them a LOT of attacks (Master Thrower's Palm Shot, for example), and they can be pretty sick.

Beguilers are skillmonkeys and lockdown magic. They don't get sneak attack, they don't generally need it. They can shut down hordes of opponents, and some scarily nasty ones too. Immunity to mind-affecting is their bane, just like immunity to precision-based damage is the Rogue's. For Ultra-Cheeze and uber late-game power for drastically reduced short-term power, go with Rainbow Servant to get all cleric spells added to your list.

[Jack_Simth]

If I may:

Sorcerers can be the best at buffing and party support, particularly when backed up by War Weaver. Everyone's got craptons of buffs. Repeatable for an insane number of times, since you're a sorcerer and not a wizard. War Weaver lets you drop a NUMBER of buffs on the whole PARTY as a single move action. Choose the right ones, and dayum. This gets even better when you get to pick up things like Arcane Disciple to pick up the few buffs clerics get that Sorcerer's don't get access to.

When you cast a spell from the wand, you're the caster. That Wizard with a wand of Bull's Strength? Yeah, he can cast it into his Weave. Fifty times, before he needs a new wand.

Also - this is a tangent, but the Sorcerer has a different wording in the spellcasting entry than any other class; exactly as the text is written, the Sorcerer is not limited to the Sor/Wiz spell list.

Rogues are skillmonkeys and situational damage output. With the right build, they can compete with even a FB build as far as raw damage output, as long as your opponent isn't immune to precision-based damage. Paired with something that gives them a LOT of attacks (Master Thrower's Palm Shot, for example), and they can be pretty sick.

Dual-wield Effect spells that make them touch attacks. One of my favorites for this is the Druid's Produce Flame. Seven touch attacks/round, at range, at 20th. Plus one, if you're Hasted by either boots or a friendly caster. Pure Core, too. Tends to one-round most things, provided you cast the two Produce Flame spells before the battle starts (and the duration is enough that you can usually get away with that).

Beguilers are skillmonkeys and lockdown magic. They don't get sneak attack, they don't generally need it. They can shut down hordes of opponents, and some scarily nasty ones too. Immunity to mind-affecting is their bane, just like immunity to precision-based damage is the Rogue's. For Ultra-Cheeze and uber late-game power for drastically reduced short-term power, go with Rainbow Servant to get all cleric spells added to your list.

Drastically reduced Long-term power, too - depending on whether or not your DM buys the "text trumps table" that's at the front of the errata. The table for the Rainbow Servant says it loses four caster levels. The text for the Rainbow Servants Spells Known/Spells per day says you get an increase in spells known and spells per day at "every" level.

[Chronicled]

For Ultra-Cheeze and uber late-game power for drastically reduced short-term power, go with Rainbow Servant to get all cleric spells added to your list.

Whether or not your short term power is reduced depends on your reading of whether caster levels are lost for Rainbow Servant. I am of the belief that they are not.

Edit: Um, I should have hit refresh before I replied. Ninja'd, and HARD.

[crazedloon]

I love the beguiler so I may be a little skewed as far as my opinion but the Beguiler is a better skill monkey then the rogue.

Now that sounds ridiculous because the rogue has 8+int while the Beguiler has 6+int But I will point out that a beguiler's caster stat is int this means it will be higher if not significantly higher. A rogue will have int as his 3rd highest stat at best (dex for armor + hit (with finesse) Con for hp because a rogue needs to be in combat and needs the hp) this means the beguiler will easily make up the lost 2 skills with his int mod. Then when you compare skill list they are nearly identical and you will find the beguiler has a few better skills and can use certain Magic items without the check.

So really the only advantige the rogue has over the beguiler is its sneak attack damage and we all know damage is worse then save or suck and spells

[Jack_Simth]

Whether or not your short term power is reduced depends on your reading of whether caster levels are lost for Rainbow Servant. I am of the belief that they are not.

Technically, per the Errata, text trumps table. So despite the fact that:
1) A few other PrC's in the same book have the same issue (text/table discrepancy on spellcasting progression... and always the text is the one that says it's full progression), which suggests the book had some severe editing issues, and the spellcasting progression block was copy/pasted with minor edits only in a lot of cases.
2) It's listed as "Moderate Spellcasting" on page 20 under the grouping
3) The levels on the table where the table indicates that there's no spellcasting progression are also the levels where the class gets class specials
4) The sample Rainbow Servant has two lost caster levels (which is correct, by the table, for the Sorcerer-6/Rainbow Servant-4 the NPC is listed as being)
... it is, technically, by the rules of primary sources and the listed WotC errata, a full casting progression PrC.

It really, really shouldn't be a full progression PrC, though. As you said - it gets brokenly powerful.

Edit: Um, I should have hit refresh before I replied. Ninja'd, and HARD.

Nah, it's more fun this way.