Shapeshift druid questions

[Nalistar]

Hi,
first of all greetings to everyone since this is my first post here.
I have a question about the mechanincs involved in the shapeshift class feature presented in PHB2. I don't have the handbook with me right now so this could be a stupid question :P Well, i was wondering what happens to the size bonuses when you can shapeshift into a form larger that medium (like ferocious slayer and forest avenger). Are the Str, Con, Des, Natural armor bonuses and maluses already included in the stats you get from the form (+8 or +12 str) or you must add the size bonuses? Beacause those would be size bonuses while the one you get for the form are enhancement bonuses. I suppose you take the -1 penality to AC and hit so maybe the other bonuses should be calculated as well. I'm not sure if it's stated otherwise or not: again, i can't check on my own.
Thanks in advance for your replies

Nalistar

[Epinephrine]

Hi,
first of all greetings to everyone since this is my first post here.
I have a question about the mechanincs involved in the shapeshift class feature presented in PHB2. I don't have the handbook with me right now so this could be a stupid question :P Well, i was wondering what happens to the size bonuses when you can shapeshift into a form larger that medium (like ferocious slayer and forest avenger). Are the Str, Con, Des, Natural armor bonuses and maluses already included in the stats you get from the form (+8 or +12 str) or you must add the size bonuses? Beacause those would be size bonuses while the one you get for the form are enhancement bonuses. I suppose you take the -1 penality to AC and hit so maybe the other bonuses should be calculated as well. I'm not sure if it's stated otherwise or not: again, i can't check on my own.
Thanks in advance for your replies

Nalistar

You don't get any of the Str, Dex, Con, Natural armour bonuses listed for creatures that increase size in the MM. That's solely for advancing a creature.

You do have to separately add your AC penalty and to hit penalty for bigger forms, and keep track of the bonuses to resist trips, to grapple, etc.

[kamikasei]

You don't get any of the Str, Dex, Con, Natural armour bonuses listed for creatures that increase size in the MM. That's solely for advancing a creature.

This would appear to be borne out by the fact that the enlarge person spell lists a fixed size bonus to Strength, while the Size Increase table shows different increases depending on the size categories being moved between. I would guess the reason the shapeshift variant lists enhancement bonuses is specifically to avoid stacking with items, nothing more.

[Nalistar]

Ok i think i got it. Thanks for your replies.


Nalistar

[Epinephrine]

If you are interested Nalistar, we houseruled a bunch of changes to shapeshift that I'm fond of; I didn't like how the low level forms simply get superceded by newer forms, so they get extra abilities as they level (e.g., the predator form picks up trip and scent later on). Otherwise there is little point in still having the ability to switch into the early forms.

[Leon]

I'd be interested in those if you don't mind

[Nalistar]

I'm interested as well :) can you give me the link?^^

Thanks

Nalistar

[Epinephrine]

I hadn't posted it anywhere, so I can summarize it here. It's certainly an increase in the power of shapeshift. I'm not sure it'd suit everyone, nor whether it's overboard, but it's nice to have a reason to still change into the earlier forms.

Spoiler

Show

Basically, my DM didn't want wild shape, but felt the the shapeshift was a bit too much of a hit. He added a few perks at various levels, to keep the earlier shapes useful.

One such is that subtle changes allow slight advantages, imitating having equipment, such as:
Predator and Slayer forms claws can act as a climber's set (+2 circumstance bonus)
Paws can act as snow shoes.
Fur/feathers/bark can be adjusted to provide protection from hot or cold environments (+1 protection, as in sandstorm and frostburn), at 12th level this improves to +2 protection (equivalent to desert animal or arctic animal).
No need for tent, bedroll etc for survival checks, can sleep comfortably in animal forms.
Likewise, presuming the forms can do so, no need for fishing gear to catch fish, etc.

This isn't exhaustive, essentially, if it seems reasonable for the animal and could be accomplished with pretty standard equipment (thus climbing kit, snowshoes, tent, fishing gear...) you can do it, DM's discretion of course.

1st level - Predator
Basic stats are the same,
- at 4th level you gain the Trip ability; on a successful bite attack you can attempt a trip.
- at 8th level you gain scent and low-light vision, and can track by scent

5th level - Aerial
Size is reduced to small (for medium sized druids); no Str bonus, instead a +2 Dex bonus. Still has +2 Reflex save and +2 natural armour. Deals 1d4 damage. Makes it less a combat form, and more in line with actual bird sizes.
at 7th level gains Flyby attack
at 12th level move goes to 60' flight
at 18th level move goes to 80' flight

12th level - Slayer
Stats are the same, except that the primary attack is the Claw (made more sense, most 3 attack animals are Claw/Claw/Bite), but again, advancement changes
at 10th level, gains Improved Critical (Bite) and Improved Critical (Claw)
at 12th level, gains Pounce (yeah, really nice, but at 12th level you gain Plant form which is better in combat in general, so this keeps this a handy form for ambushes)

12th level - Forest avenger
Stats are the same, but is immune to criticals
at 14th level deals double damage to objects (remains a solid destroyer of structures)
at 16th level gains DR 10/slashing, vulnerability to fire

16th level Elemental Fury
Stats are the same, but immune to criticals and doesn't breathe, has no special elemental properties.
at 18th level it gains some special abilities according to the element selected:
air - perfect 80' flight
water - swim at land speed
earth - earth glide
fire - immune to fire, 2d8 of burning for 1d4 rounds (DC 22) on a hit.

[Leon]

I like the look of those