What's up with Liches (4e)?

[Realms of Chaos]

In 4e, one of the more impressive aspects, at least to me, is just how equal everything is. Every class follows the same guidelines and even the creatures are designed to be played at the same level.

However, with the lich, there seems to be a bit of a hiccup in this perfect world. Namely, the Lich Transformation ritual. I know that there has always been a way for humans to become liches (where else would they be coming from otherwise?). However, in 4e, the process has become unbalanced.

Back in 3e, to become a Lich, you had to go through some obscure magic ritual, create your phylactery, and spend some cash. However, the moment that you acquired your template, you'd have the massive weight of level adjustment upon your shoulders, helping to keep you in line with everyone else by keeping your caster level and hit points (especially considering that you would have no Con score) down.

Now, there is a ritual that allows lichdom, a ritual that only requires only 100k gp, 10 days and 1 hour, and (presumably) worship of Orcus.

Once more, to give WotC its proper dues, it did isolate the ritual in one book and the template itself in another, limiting the odds of players knowing about it. Unfortunately, the ritual isn't that all secret, only requiring a DC 20 religon check to have heard about it.

I understand that there have always been some items (like the Deck of Many Things) that players weren't really meant to acquire on a whim. However, in such cases, the denial of the item was usually either due to a lack of market price (read, artifact) or logical lack of that item (such as with magical locations). However, not only is the ritual given a price, meaning that others can buy it, but the wizard can add it to their spellbook for free at 15th level (by RAW, it is never stated that the wizard must select rituals from the PHB. Furthermore, although the isolation of the ritual does say something, WotC never even discourages use of that ritual by PCs in any of the core rule books). With all of this in mind, there is no reason to deny the wizard their ritual other than the typical rule 0 (read, because I say so).

As for the few of you who are wondering by now why I am only complaining about the Lich, and not the Vampire, which possesses a similar ritual, take a closer look. If you'd be so kind to observe, only a vampire can cast the ritual to make another vampire. However, any humanoid can cast the lich transformation ritual. In my mind, this was the last nail in the coffin.

But is the lich template really so bad? Yes, yes it is. Let's go ahead and list the benefits for, oh, let's say a level 15 human wizard. You gain darkvision, some bonuses to your defenses, a couple of immunities, necrotic resistance, a bonus to your saving throws, your hit points more than double, you gain a constant regeneration 10, you can reclaim encounter powers, you gain a necrotic aura, and you can make any attack power necrotic. Oh, yeah, and you come back whenever you're killed. Even if this human was required to forego both their paragon path and epic destiny (which nothing suggests they would be required to do), they would still be far overpowered compared to their companions.

Although I admire how they were able to eliminate level adjustment, I feel slightly bad realizing that Wizards apparently never gave a second thought to the concept of a player becoming an elite, an occurance that Wizards does not seem to forbid or even warn against, and an occurance that appears to have no drawback for them.

Even now, however, I know that there must be some podcast, wizards announcement, or warning in the DMG or MM against this. If you have found one, please let me know.

P.S. I know very well that the answer to my quandry lies in placing up a houserule against it, explaining gently to any players who would want to become liches how it would end up overpowered. However, as the few remaining critics of 4e have come to say quite often in recent days, the core rule books should not have to be houseruled.

[Moff Chumley]

I think there are some things that they assume that you'll know...

[Artanis]

Where is this ritual to become a Lich? Because I can't find it. In fact, the only mentions of said ritual I can find would require the Air Bud clause for a PC to use, so I'm interested in where this ritual can be found.

[WrstDmEvr]

[snip]

I understand that there have always been some items (like the Deck of Many Things) that players weren't really meant to acquire on a whim. However, in such cases, the denial of the item was usually either due to a lack of market price (read, artifact) or logical lack of that item (such as with magical locations). However, not only is the ritual given a price, meaning that others can buy it, but the wizard can add it to their spellbook for free at 15th level (by RAW, it is never stated that the wizard must select rituals from the PHB. Furthermore, although the isolation of the ritual does say something, WotC never even discourages use of that ritual by PCs in any of the core rule books). With all of this in mind, there is no reason to deny the wizard their ritual other than the typical rule 0 (read, because I say so).

...

(emphasis added)
The thing is, the functional templates(of which the lich is part of) description is "Functional templates adapt a monster or a nonplayer character to a given purpose in an adventure" By RAW, player characters cannot add that template. Still, you bring up a valid concern. They should have been more clear in forbidding this.

EDIT: Lich template on 179 in DMG

[kc0bbq]

Templates are for monsters, not PCs.

EDIT: beaten. :P

[Artanis]

EDIT: Lich template on 179 in DMG

Yeah, I found that part (which is another of the "Air Bud Clause" bits), but where did the OP find the "100K gp, 10 days 1 hour, and Orcus Worship" part?

[Realms of Chaos]

The ritual, on page 177 of the MM, requires 100,000gp to cast, 10 days (for phylactery creation) and 1 hour (for the casting), and, although optional, worship of Orcus (as, according to fluff, Orcus can destroy any phylactery with a thought).

Anyways, going by the a combination of the fact that the ritual is open to PCs but that the template granted isn't, is it a safe assumption that a PC becomes an NPC when they use the ritual?

[Prophaniti]

Well, whether it can be used by the PCs is up to the DM, and therefore not really a matter of debate. Regardless of what RAW says, it's up to the DM to decide whether he wants PCs to be able to become Liches, and what connotations that should hold.

However, I have no issue whatsoever with them being 'overpowered'. A lich is more powerful than a regular mage, given the same character level. That's the way it should be. Keeping the same degree of power to the template but losing the LA makes perfect sense to me. If you think it's too much, it's quite a simple thing to remove or limit the possibility of players becoming liches. We are talking about an arcane ritual that grants immortality in exchange for your soul. It's not like they should be able to pick it up off a street-vendor's cart.

Anyways, going by the a combination of the fact that the ritual is open to PCs but that the template granted isn't, is it a safe assumption that a PC becomes an NPC when they use the ritual?

That's up to the DM, and how badly he feels the game will fall apart if one of the PCs is a Lich.

[MartinHarper]

As other folks have said, templates can't be applied to PCs. They can only be applied to monsters. If a PC uses the ritual, you'll need to houserule something. Sorry, can't be helped.

Sample House Rules:

Feat: Liched
I'm more emo than a tiefling
Character is well on the way to becoming a lich. Replace all racial bonuses with the following:
+4 Cha
+2 Int
-4 Wis
Size: as before
Type: Undead.
Speed: as before
Vision: low-light
Languages: as before
Skill Bonuses: as before
Resist: 10 necrotic
Vulnerable: 10 radiant
Alignment: Evil
Special: +5 racial bonus to saving throws vs poison or disease. Any powers that cause radiant damage now cause necrotic damage.

Then replace any racial feats for the character with lich racial feats:

Feat: Lich Senses [Lich]
I can see in the dark with my glowing red eyes
Benefit: you gain darkvision

Feat: Poison Immunity [Lich]
I don't have a circulatory system any more
Benefit: you are immune to poisons

Feat: Disease Immunity [Lich]
Internal Organs are for losers
Benefit: you are immune to diseases

The prospective Lich needs to acquire a 100,000gp phylactery to perform the ritual. This becomes a level 20 magic item on completion of the ritual:

Magic Item: Lich Phylactery - Level 20
A sealed metal box containing magical runes written in your own blood
When you die, your body reforms over 1d10 days within 1 square of this item. You return with a death penalty (per Raise Dead) and your soul must be free and willing (per Raise Dead). Recharging your phylactery after each use costs 500gp of arcane ritual components. This increases to 5,000gp in the Paragon tier and 50,000gp in the Epic tier.

[Antacid]

where did the OP find the "100K gp, 10 days 1 hour, and Orcus Worship" part?

It's in the fluff.

Actually the part about needing to ask Orcus is the worst part (as there's no way any PC gets to become a lich without a DM lapse of judgement). Shouldn't it be Vecna? Duh.

[Prophaniti]

Tieflings are more emo than anyone... except a Tiefling Lich!

[Artanis]

There it is.


The ritual "makes you a lich and applies the lich template". PCs can't gain templates. Thus while a character can presumably know the ritual, going through with it wouldn't do anything noteworthy.

[Prophaniti]

There it is.


The ritual "makes you a lich and applies the lich template". PCs can't gain templates. Thus while a character can presumably know the ritual, going through with it wouldn't do anything noteworthy.

See, now that's the kind of attitude that seems extremely silly to me. You're holding RAW (PCs can't gain templates) up as a more important concept than the actual players, and their actions at the table. Of course going through the ritual would do something noteworthy. It will turn them into a Lich! That's what it does! Whether the PCs are able to complete the ritual, or even aquire it in the first place, and what happens to the character after they become a Lich is why the game has the position of the DM! That's his job. The only possible purpose of invoking the 'PCs can't gain Templates' clause is to silence the grumbling of Rules Lawyers who hold a similarly distorted view of how important RAW is, when you don't want them to become Liches. After you've already screwed up enough to allow them to gain and complete the ritual in the first place.

Erk. Sorry if that sounds really worked up. Just a little venting.

[Artanis]

See, now that's the kind of attitude that seems extremely silly to me. You're holding RAW (PCs can't gain templates) up as a more important concept than the actual players, and their actions at the table. Of course going through the ritual would do something noteworthy. It will turn them into a Lich! That's what it does! Whether the PCs are able to complete the ritual, or even aquire it in the first place, and what happens to the character after they become a Lich is why the game has the position of the DM! That's his job. The only possible purpose of invoking the 'PCs can't gain Templates' clause is to silence the grumbling of Rules Lawyers who hold a similarly distorted view of how important RAW is, when you don't want them to become Liches. After you've already screwed up enough to allow them to gain and complete the ritual in the first place.

Erk. Sorry if that sounds really worked up. Just a little venting.

I'm doing nothing of the sort.

The OP made the claim that now the PCs could gain an extremely powerful template, and he claimed they could do so by RAW. I (and most of the people who responded to this thread) replied that no, they could not do so by RAW. This is a discussion of RAW, not the players' and DM's wishes.

Now, if you feel that your players should be allowed to gain the template, getting all the effects that it would have on a monster or NPC in the process, then go ahead and let them. But if you do so, you cannot claim that it is allowed by RAW. And claiming exactly that is precisely what the OP did.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

RAW: Players cannot gain templates
RAW: This ritual can give a character a template
RAW: This ritual is castable by the player
RAW: Breaks down. 1+1=3. THE END IS NIGH!

Or, maybe, WotC still doesn't know how to build a decent game, or even edit properly.

[Feralgeist]

you know what you could do though?? scribe the ritual onto a scroll and make an NPC ally use it, assisting with your oh-so-high arcana rollz. Hurrah, you now have a meat-shield that you wont be able to get rid of.

[ArmorArmadillo]

There it is.


The ritual "makes you a lich and applies the lich template". PCs can't gain templates. Thus while a character can presumably know the ritual, going through with it wouldn't do anything noteworthy.

If you couldn't apply the template, why would you need the ritual? DMs don't need to use a ritual to give an NPC a template, it doesn't make sense to print it if you can't apply it to players. I would say this is an example of specific trumping general in applying templates to players.

(They know how to edit just fine, you're just forgetting a more basic rule.)

[ShadowSiege]

As a template, they obviously cannot be applied to players. Presumably, the lich ritual could be used to create a paragon path or epic destiny for those that fulfill the requirements at some later point in time. I'd wager epic destiny would be the most appropriate due to the cost and the benefits (growing into your lichdom so to speak), though I could just as easily see it as a paragon path with a daily utility ability to return from destruction.

The inclusion of the ritual that cannot be used at this point in time without house ruling may be a bit of a poor judgment call on Wizards' part, as players will inevitably want to try the lich thing. The inclusion is also odd when considering that the 4e base books makes the assumption that you will be playing a heroic party rather than antiheroic or villainous party, and as such would presumably find the idea of becoming an undead abomination abhorrent.

[Illiterate Scribe]

{Scrubbed}

[Prophaniti]

Now, that's not quite fair, IS. I may not like the new ruleset at all, but most of it is fairly simple to follow, and rarely contradictory.

[Chronicled]

you know what you could do though?? scribe the ritual onto a scroll and make an NPC ally use it, assisting with your oh-so-high arcana rollz. Hurrah, you now have a meat-shield that you wont be able to get rid of.

And why stop at 1? You could have an elite bodyguard of liches, all more than willing to take an deadly blow for you.

[Xuincherguixe]

They also may not have even considered that PCs would want to become Liches. Though, it's more likely that they just went with the Template thing.

[Collin152]

And why stop at 1? You could have an elite bodyguard of liches, all more than willing to take an deadly blow for you.

Because its rather expensive?

[Realms of Chaos]

It's in the fluff.

Actually the part about needing to ask Orcus is the worst part (as there's no way any PC gets to become a lich without a DM lapse of judgement). Shouldn't it be Vecna? Duh.

technically, all that we know Orcus can do (actually, the book merely hints that he is rumored to have this ability) is break the phylactery after you become a lich, denying you of not-dying-ness but still making you quite overpowered. Whether Orcus can withold the power necessary to use the ritual in the first place is beyond the realms of even the fluff, alas.

Anyways, the problem, as I see it, is a contradiction.

Namely, the basic contradiction of the general rule (PCs cannot have templates) vs. the exception (a ritual, usable by PCs, to gain a template). In this case, the exception always takes priority.

However, in this particular case, the exception-beats-rule law contradicts the entire intention of 4e for everyone to stand on equal footing.

We have been told, at one point in our gaming lives or another, to respect both the exception-beats-rule law, which is telling us yes Lich, and R.A.I, which is telling us no Lich.

Has there ever been precedence for contradiction between these two unwritten principles?

[Collin152]

Has there ever been precedence for contradiction between these two unwritten principles?

Just use the force.
Trust your feelings.

[Admiral_Kelly]

The idea of player becoming a lich in a roleplaying game is absurd. They are suppose to be the BBEGs.

[DMfromTheAbyss]

I have a couple of conclusions to draw from this discussion.

There are a frightening number of people on this forum who assume that if you can sell your soul and sacrifice your life for additional power as an undead fiend, then it's a no duh style decision.

What if there is no Contradiction...

Given that :The rules say a PC can use the the ritual, and that the ritual gives you a template. AND the rules also say Templates cannot be given to PC's.

SO... Looks like a player can become a lich and become powerful... but then he's not a PC, so the player just made the DM a cool villian that his next character might get to fight against.

Just my interpretation of how this could work. I'll admit that the rules could certainly be better written, but given my interpretation I actually like this more than the silly add a template stuff in 3rd ed.

[Realms of Chaos]

Actually, upon closer reading (missed it earlier), it turns out that turning the player into an NPC does not quite remove the contradiction.

According to the DMG, "You can also add a functional template to a nonplayer character" (emphasis mine).
Therefore, in order for the rules to not trip over themselves, you would've had to be an NPC before you cast the ritual (so that it can be added to an NPC), something not required by RAW.

Also, remember that there is indeed precedence for being a lich back in 3.5. To see for yourself, please read the description of the Dread Necromancer, a base class (not an NPC class).

By the way, I'm not selling my soul. I'm shoving it into a box.

[Siosilvar]

Turn them into an NPC when they start casting the ritual. Apply the template at the end.

Does that fix your semantics problem?

[Chronicled]

Because its rather expensive?

That's why you complain to the DM that your WBL is way underneath everyone else's.