Sorcerer vs Wizard spell choice?

[Frosty]

THose two classes choose spells from the same spell list, but what are the main differences in choices in terms of optimization? I'm sure I can do reasonable well by reading a sorcerer guide to fill up my wizard's spellbook, but there's gotta be nuances for me to consider.

[Frost]

Wizard's do better preparing spells that you cast once that day and benefit you forever after. hour per level buffs ect. Sorcerers do better casting spells over and over.

Overland Flight is always better for a Wizard, often, Fly is a better choice for a Sorcerer.

And so on.

For attack spells, Sorcerers choose spells that generally always work, Web/Prismatic Sphere/Wall of Force.

Wizards can get away with spells that aren't as general, but usually come up once a day, and then use different ones, like Spiritwall instead of Wall of Force.

[Chronos]

Spell choice as a wizard is easy. Is it a spell? Then choose it. Even if there's only an off chance that you might ever need a spell in a particular situation that might never come up, that's enough to justify the cost of a few spellbook pages.

Now, what to prepare each morning is a little more complicated. You'll probably have a default list, but the whole point of being a wizard instead of a sorcerer is that you can change that list every day, to match whatever the situation is.

[Frost]

but the whole point of being a wizard instead of a sorcerer is that you can change that list every day, to match whatever the situation is.

Not really, I like to be able to cast 9 different spells once each, something a Sorcerer can never do.

Also, it does involve changing your spells, but hardly counts, I like to adventure every other day (or every third day at higher levels) with a full suit of buffs going and a full set of attack spells.

[Frosty]

Do you think it's worth it to take Metamagic School Focus (Abjuration) combined with Arcane Thesis in order to be able to Empower a Maw of Chaos? decent damage and chance to be dazed. I'm thinking of going Abjuration speciliast Wizard (Spontaneous Divination option)/Master Specialist/Archmage

[Frost]

I have no idea what the range/area/damage of Maw of Chaos is, but if I was going to try doing AoE damage, I'd be using Wings of Flurry. Save versus Daze, level 4 spell to be upped by metamagic.

[valadil]

A sorcerer has to take spells that are worth casting over and over again in 95% of situations. I know evocation isn't too popular around here, but there are very few combats that don't benefit from a fireball. Haste is an awesomer spell mathematically, but I'm hesitant to take it on a sorcerer because you often just cast it once at the beginning of combat and after that its a wasted slot. It works better on a wizard who can prep a single haste and keep a couple scrolls handy in case there are more combats that day.

You also want to avoid duplicates. Solid Fog and Black Tentacles are great spells. But both of them control the battlefield and are limited by freedom of movement. If you take both spells and your opponent has FoM up, you just wasted half your level 4 slots.

If you do go for any amount of damaging spells, try to avoid redundancy here too. Unless you have a pyrotechnic theme theres no reason to have scorching ray, fireball, and delayed blast fireball all on the same character. If you aren't taking any kind of energy substitution, you'll want to make sure each damage spell does a different type of damage. Better yet, use untyped or force damage like wings of flurry and melfs unicorn arrow. I actually really enjoy taking those two spells and metamagicking the hell out of them and using higher level slots for more interesting stuff.

[Frosty]

I have no idea what the range/area/damage of Maw of Chaos is, but if I was going to try doing AoE damage, I'd be using Wings of Flurry. Save versus Daze, level 4 spell to be upped by metamagic.

Maw of Chaos is a pretty big area I think, and it forces spellcasters to make a high concentration check to be able to cast in the area, the it does d6 damage with no CL limit!!

[mostlyharmful]

Wizards also get a good line in the out of combat magics, divinations, outsider bindings, teleport, arcane lock, permenancy, continual flame, Permenant image, etc.... while it would burn up all the Sorcs slots to take them the wizard can make use of the useful/non-combat focussed stuff far more efficiently.


Wizards can get better milage out of Buffs since they can crank their CL and be reasonalbly secure against dispels and so only need to mem one per usage. Sorcs as has been said are keen on spells that are almost always useful or have a whole lot of potential uses, I'm particularly fond of Shadow Walk, Limited Wish and Disguise self for Sorcs, if I'm feeling cheesy then maybe Alter Self.

Solos got some interesting stuff on the ways to choose Sorc spells as oppossed to Wizard "I want it ALLLLLLL, gimme gimme gimme"

[Frost]

the it does d6 damage with no CL limit!!

So does Wings of Flurry!

[Jack_Simth]

THose two classes choose spells from the same spell list, but what are the main differences in choices in terms of optimization? I'm sure I can do reasonable well by reading a sorcerer guide to fill up my wizard's spellbook, but there's gotta be nuances for me to consider.

In general?

If you design well, in general, the Sorcerer's Spells Known at level X will look very similar to the prepared spell list for the Wizard of level X-1 when the Wizard will be adventuring, but hasn't the foggiest notion what's coming (this ignores the Wizard's ability to leave a spell slot open, and also ignores feats, spells, class abilities, and other methods by which the Wizard can get a spell without preparing it).

Now, there are some differences - the Wizard takes Overland Flight, and flies around all day on one spell. The Sorcerer takes Fly, and just flies around when he needs to (and spams it on everyone else on the party as needed). The Wizard might take Invisibility Sphere to let the entire party sneak through an area, while the Sorcerer is better off simply spamming regular Invisibility on everyone. In general, the Wizard has more long-term flexibility (day to day and week to week), the Sorcerer has short-term flexibility (round to round); this means the Wizard likes the spells that'll only come up occasionally (he can sit down and prepare them for fifteen minutes and be good to go, if he manages spell slots well), while the Sorcerer sticks with ones that'll be generically useful (Two direct-damage spells - one each of two different elements, one Fort save or lose spell, one Will save or lose spell, one Reflex save or lose spell, one touch attack or lose spell, one good no-SR spell, and Heighten Spell - consider all bases covered; put the rest into utility, buff, defense, and flavoring).

There's also some spells that work better for the Sorcerer or the Wizard due simply to their different primary casting stats - a Sorcerer does a little better than the Wizard with the Planar Binding line, for instance, because the bargaining is based off Charisma; Charm effects work better for the Sorcerer, because making a critter do something against it's will requires a Charisma check; a Wizard can make better use of Fabricate because Craft checks are Intelligence-based; and so on.

There's some spells that are extra useful for a Sorcerer, because they have a lot of possible effects, whereas the Wizard simply puts spells for specific effects in a spellbook and keeps a slot free for preparing on 15 minute's notice. For instance: Shadow Conjuration can duplicate Phantom Steed, the Lesser Orbs (if that book is permitted), Stinking Cloud, Web, Glitterdust, and Fog Cloud. Sure, it's a 4th level spell that makes a weakened version of 3rd level spells and below, but it can definitely be worth it for the flexibility. Shadow Walk can cover most of what you'll need from Teleport and Plane Shift (although it's slower than either). The Planar Binding line means that you can Call the perfect outsider for the job (given about 20 or 30 minute's notice, anyway). Limited Wish can do 6th level or lower effects with no penalty (other than the XP hit and the 7th level slot), and depending on permitted sources, can also be used to swap out spells known (Magic-Psionics transparency (twice) and Psychic Reformation).

There's also an interesting note:
The Sorcerer is the only Core spellcaster who isn't limited to his class list of spells. Seriously. For the Sorcerer, it's "that are drawn primarily from", where as for all the other casters in the PHB, it's "that are drawn from". While there's no actual mechanics listed for how to do it, by RAW, the Sorcerer is not limited to just the Sor/Wiz spell list.

[nargbop]

There's also an interesting note:
The Sorcerer is the only Core spellcaster who isn't limited to his class list of spells. Seriously. For the Sorcerer, it's "that are drawn primarily from", where as for all the other casters in the PHB, it's "that are drawn from". While there's no actual mechanics listed for how to do it, by RAW, the Sorcerer is not limited to just the Sor/Wiz spell list.

Mrr? Dubious, Mr. Jack Simth! I check my Internet! ( goes to check Internet ) ... Oh. OH. Huh. So now my 18th level Sorcerer can do a couple hits of Animate City every day... sweet. Sweetness and awesome. I'm sure this won't fly with my DM, but it's a good nitpick. I wonder why they did that.

Sorcerers vs. Wizards = Specialized vs. Diverse. The best use for a sorcerer is to declare "I'm a Blaster" or "I'm a Diviner" or "I'm a Buffer" or "I'm a Sneaky Stabber" and optimize with that in mind. A Wizard can learn a different set of spells every day and adapt his spell list to the situation. Mind you, a wizard can specialize if you want him to, but in my experience, a wizard with a wide range of buffing, blasting, and utility spells is the best addition to the team.

[Jack_Simth]

Mrr? Dubious, Mr. Jack Simth! I check my Internet! ( goes to check Internet ) ... Oh. OH. Huh. So now my 18th level Sorcerer can do a couple hits of Animate City every day... sweet. Sweetness and awesome. I'm sure this won't fly with my DM, but it's a good nitpick. I wonder why they did that.

There's a few supporting lines elsewhere if you need them - but for most of those, you'll want the actual dead-tree version of the PHB, rather than the SRD. As a bonus, when you dig up the supporting lines, they also rule out the method being spell research as spelled out in the DMG. However, even the other supporting lines don't include any, you know, MECHANICS behind it, even though the same text that gives them the ability also strongly implies it's not automatic.

It's amusing though - very nearly everyone misses that aspect of the Sorcerer's casting until it's deliberately pointed out to them. People in general see what they expect to see, rather than what is, provided it isn't too terribly out of line with what's actually there.

[Innis Cabal]

My mantra for Sorc V. Wiz is this.....how often will you cast that in the course of your carrer....1? Scroll it, 20? Pick it as a spell.

As for wizards, i've always found the saying "Wizards are unbeatable tommorow" to hold true.

[monty]

My mantra for Sorc V. Wiz is this.....how often will you cast that in the course of your carrer....1? Scroll it, 20? Pick it as a spell.

As for wizards, i've always found the saying "Wizards are unbeatable tommorow" to hold true.

If you're only casting it 20 times over your career as a sorcerer, unless that career is very short, there's probably a better choice.

[Innis Cabal]

it was pretty clearly a random number.

[monty]

it was pretty clearly a random number.

A random number that's too small to merit choosing for one of your precious few sorcerer spells known. If you had said 100, I might have agreed.

[Waspinator]

Basically, Sorceror's need to plan more and be a lot more picky. Wizards can just put every spell they can get their hands on in their book and experiment with what they want to prepare until they find a list that they like. Since a Sorceror knows a lot fewer spells and has much more trouble changing them, a bad choice can do a lot more damage than it does to a Wizard.

[Frost]

There's a few supporting lines elsewhere if you need them - but for most of those, you'll want the actual dead-tree version of the PHB, rather than the SRD. As a bonus, when you dig up the supporting lines, they also rule out the method being spell research as spelled out in the DMG. However, even the other supporting lines don't include any, you know, MECHANICS behind it, even though the same text that gives them the ability also strongly implies it's not automatic.

It's amusing though - very nearly everyone misses that aspect of the Sorcerer's casting until it's deliberately pointed out to them. People in general see what they expect to see, rather than what is, provided it isn't too terribly out of line with what's actually there.

If you are going to be that nit picky try reading the rules on putting spells in your spellbook and casting spells. Wizard's can learn anything they find a scroll of, not just arcane scrolls.

[Reinboom]

Since a lot of the defense of optimization has been for Wizard here, a few things that Sorcerers do much much better... by just stating what they are.
1. Kobold + Dragonwrought + Loredrake. The Kobold Sorcerer casts a level earlier than the wizard.
1 addendum. + Greater Draconic Rite of Passage. The Kobold Sorcerer at level 6+ casts 2 levels earlier than the wizard.
2. Arcane Spellsurge. The sorcerer is doing all her standard action spells as a swift action, combine with sanctum spell to slow down the spells of your choice to a standard action, so, you can choose what speed your spells go at freely on the fly. (Combine with Incantatrix and persist spell for best effect).
3. Arcane Fusion/Greater. Not too big of a hit, but, this is combined with Arcane Spellsurge to make the Sorcerer simply the most incredible spam spammer.
4. Ruin Delvar's Fortune. The sorcerer will almost always make a specific save with this.

[Jack_Simth]

If you are going to be that nit picky try reading the rules on putting spells in your spellbook and casting spells. Wizard's can learn anything they find a scroll of, not just arcane scrolls.

Learn them, yes; cast them, not unless they're on the Sor/Wiz list.

[NeoVid]

The wizard has versatility that can't be matched. The sorc has to work hard to get a fair amount of versatility, but it's worth the effort. The Shadow Conjuration/Evocation spells basically give you access to dozens of others, and the right metamagic feats (meaning Sculpt Spell and Energy Substitution) let you modify what you do have for the situation at hand. Increasing spell level by 1 to fire off that Glitterdust as four 10 foot cubes? Sounds like a bargain.

[Draz74]

Increasing spell level by 1 to fire off that Glitterdust as four 10 foot cubes? Sounds like a bargain.

At which point I have to mention that the feat Sorcerers have always dreamed of finally made an appearance in Complete Mage.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

At which point I have to mention that the feat Sorcerers have always dreamed of finally made an appearance in Complete Mage.

Or just use the PhB II variant to ditch your familiar to do the same thing...

Seriously, a Sorcerer, when choosing which spells to know, must ask him this: How many times per day am I going to realistically cast this?

Not just how many times, how many times per day. You're wanting spells you can cast over and over and over again every day for spells known. If you're not going to be casting it at least once a day, wand or scroll it.

Case in point: Knock is a perfect spell to Wand. You're likely to use it at some point in your career, and when you do, you're likely to need it multiple times rapidly, but those instances are few and far between for your typical Sorcerer.

However, Haste is a perfect spell to take as a Spell Known. You're likely to cast it whenever the party gets into combat, or even just before they get into combat, to vastly damage output of your tanks. Since you're very likely to get into combat very frequently, this spell is ALWAYS something you can use, so it makes sense to get it as a spell known.

Take maximum advantage of flexable spells, particularly the Shadow Evocation/Conjuration spells, which nets you practically an entire college for the price of one spell.

[Eldritch_Ent]

What book is Loredrake from, and what does it do?

[Eldariel]

Sorcerers also have the option of getting Greater Draconic Rite of Passage. Of course, you need to be a Kobold and burn two feats for it, but it can be worth it; it actually gives you the same advancement as a Wizard (for some inexplicable reason all spontaneous casters advance a level slower than preparing casters; make no sense whatsoever).

As a bonus, you get +3 on all mental stats, so it's not that bad. Venerable Dragonwrought Desert Kobold loses the feats, but gets -4 Str, +2 Dex, +3 Int, +1 Wis, +3 Cha. It's a solid option. Sorcerers are actually great for Metamagic Specialists due to their large number of spells known; Incantatrix pays off for them possibly even more than for Wizards. Since Sorcerers don't even have the decency to pack extra feats, you should seek to Prestige out ASAP.


As far as spells go, all relevant things have been said. As a Sorcerer, you want your spells to do as many things as possible; the Polymorph-line is even more valuable for a Sorcerer than a Wizard (but feels like cheating; Alter Shape could be allowed though and it'd be a must-have for a Sorc). Limited Wish likewise is an eternal part of my spell selection even if I do pay exp a lot; the whole "Experience is a River"-idea really helps to make that less painful. Limited Wish gives me potent healing, reanimation, blasting, utility, whatever I could need while also allowing me to weaken my opponents.

I usually pick Grease and Glitterdust for lategame, switching other offensive low level spells away for utility; those give me a rare Reflex-targeting bomb (Web is an occasional one) and a handy mook-killer that also acts as an anti-Invisibility spell. Other than that, I tend to pick up Wings of Flurry (Sorcerer-specific and just awesome; uncapped damage on level 4 slot), Arcane Fusion (might as well pick up the few Sorcerer-only spells worth knowing if you're one), Wings of Cover, Arcane Spellsurge and Fort SoD of choice.

An Orb tends to be ok too, especially with Elven Spell Lore (+3 Int from Dragonwrought or being an Elf helps there) to make it whatever Element I want, although I might just pick Orb of Force. Then I pick few offensive higher level slots, mostly relying on metamagicked lower level spells for offense and try to pack as many generally useful spells as possible. Really, I like to avoid packing too many offensive spells since they tend to be redundant more often than not and often the lower level metamagicked version is better than the higher level one. I may even trade out Enervation sometimes as 4th level is very packed with good offensive spells and Enervation, while brutal, still allows SR and requires a Touch, and doesn't work on Undead. One control-spell like Solid Fog or Acid Fog tends to be enough.


Spells with expensive components like Force Cage I tend to get as scrolls for the sitiuation where I really need it, and Divination I don't really bother with at all; leave it to those with slots to spare. Contact Other Plane or Scrying may be worth picking up, but generally you should just leave that to any other caster in the party (Wizard, Cleric or Druid can all do it decently) or do it through scrolls. You don't have the luxury of getting Spontaneous Divination, and your slots are very precious so just skip on anything you can do without to any degree.


EDIT: Loredrake is in Dragons of Eberron. Bit cheesy, but since Dragonwrought Kobolds count as True Dragons, they technically qualify. Same thing qualifies them for Epic feats on level 1, so meh. That's easier to disapprove though.

[Reinboom]

Or just use the PhB II variant to ditch your familiar to do the same thing...

Except, the PHB2 variant doesn't do the same thing. It's limited to 3+int modifier uses per day.

What book is Loredrake from, and what does it do?

Loredrake is a property that can be applied to any dragon (which, Dragonwrought Kobolds are), that changes their racial hit die from d12s down to d10s, but gives them +2 sorcerer levels for the purpose of casting.
Not just caster level either, whole sorcerer levels.

[Jack_Simth]

Loredrake is a property that can be applied to any dragon (which, Dragonwrought Kobolds are), that changes their racial hit die from d12s down to d10s, but gives them +2 sorcerer levels for the purpose of casting.
Not just caster level either, whole sorcerer levels.

... ah, Dragons of Eberron, page 32. Hmm.

Let's see... a Dragonwrought (Races of the Dragon 1st level feat) Desert Kobold (UA environmental variant) Sorcerer-X, taking the Greater Draconic Rite of Passage (Races of the Dragon Web Enhancement) and following the Loredrake path (Dragons of Eberron), would cast as a Sorcerer X+3 - putting him one full spell level above the Wizard in spell access. Grab the Draconic Bloodline (Dragon Compendium) for extra spells known, and use Magic-Psionics transparency twice to let Limited Wish duplicate Psychic Reformation (Expanded Psionics Handbook) to trade out skills, feats, and spells known, and you have a rather flexible Sorcerer (dripping gouda, granted).

[Reinboom]

Two full levels above the wizard* you mean.

That's right, Shapechange at level 15.

[Jack_Simth]

Two full levels above the wizard* you mean.

That's right, Shapechange at level 15.

I said "one full spell level" not "one class level" and I meant "one full spell level". When the Wizard gains access to 5th level spells at character level 9, the Gouda-Sorcerer Kobold gains access to 6th level spells.