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  1. - Top - End - #1
    Firbolg in the Playground
     
    Kobold

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    Default Gaia the Fierce Knight

    So, how best to go about making a dual-lance knight (Preferably on a dragon, but really I'd settle for a dragonhawk or ever a horse)?

    So far I've found:

    Mounted Combat protects the mount, and Spirited Charge means triple damage with lances, but I still need something that gives charging full attacks.

    Crystal Keep reveals that Catfolk get a full attack on a charge if the enemy is flat-footed.

    Two Weapon Pounce (PH2) lets me attack with two weapons, but doesn't let me get a proper FULL attack.

    Hurling Charge lets me throw a weapon halfway through, and then, via quickdraw, still make the rest of my attack.
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    Bugbear in the Playground
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    Default Re: Gaia the Fierce Knight

    Just look up any of the many ways to get pounce.

    The easiest way being one level in Lion Totem Barbarian.

  3. - Top - End - #3
    Barbarian in the Playground
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    Default Re: Gaia the Fierce Knight

    Quote Originally Posted by Chronicled View Post
    Just look up any of the many ways to get pounce.

    The easiest way being one level in Lion Totem Barbarian.
    I've always wondered about this.

    I'm looking at it right now and in UA the Lion Totem gives the feat "Run", which isn't "Pounce".

    Is this eratta'd on WotC and I've just not downloaded it yet?

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    Default Re: Gaia the Fierce Knight

    Quote Originally Posted by Vexxation View Post
    I've always wondered about this.

    I'm looking at it right now and in UA the Lion Totem gives the feat "Run", which isn't "Pounce".

    Is this eratta'd on WotC and I've just not downloaded it yet?
    It's a different Lion Totem. The other one is "Spirit Lion Totem", or something. From Complete Champion, I think.

    @OP: I've actually done this before - it does require pounce if you want to get the fullness of it. If you grab levels of Cavalier (Complete Warrior), your charging lance damage goes up to 5x. Gets you other neato mount-related abilities, too.

    Pretty ridiculous stuff. You can just dual-lance nearly anything to death, granted you can reach it.
    Last edited by Deepblue706; 2008-07-07 at 04:51 PM.

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    Default Re: Gaia the Fierce Knight

    It's better just to use one lance in both hands. It is not effective to use two weapons unless you can get bonus damage and you're better off using those feats for other things in this case.
    Last edited by UglyPanda; 2008-07-07 at 04:55 PM.
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    Default Re: Gaia the Fierce Knight

    Quote Originally Posted by UglyPanda View Post
    It's better just to use one lance in both hands. It is not effective to use two weapons unless you can get bonus dice and you're better off using those feats for other things in this case.
    That depends. Cavalier gives bonuses when wielding a lance from atop a mount, and there are plenty of other things to make your attack bonus soar high enough so that two-weapon fighting penalties aren't as bad. Just make sure to grab Oversized Two-Weapon Fighting. The multiplier (x5 for a Cavalier 10) makes up for a lack of 2:1 PA trade.
    Last edited by Deepblue706; 2008-07-07 at 04:55 PM.

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    Default Re: Gaia the Fierce Knight

    Just for some perspective, the 5x modifier is a capstone ability, the lowest level you can get it is 18. Also, the 5x multiplier works on PA damage as well as weapon damage.
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    Default Re: Gaia the Fierce Knight

    Quote Originally Posted by UglyPanda View Post
    Just for some perspective, the 5x modifier is a capstone ability, the lowest level you can get it is 18. Also, the 5x multiplier works on PA damage as well as weapon damage.
    Well, I did say Cavalier 10. But really, so long as you keep up with the ever-intense TWF tree (Not too much a problem for a Fighter), it's still not a particularly bad idea to have two lances. It's definitely more efficient to use just one lance. But, since when is style about efficiency? As I see it, whatever you charge at will be dead regardless - might as well do what you think is cooler.
    Last edited by Deepblue706; 2008-07-07 at 06:09 PM.

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    Default Re: Gaia the Fierce Knight

    I assume you're starting with Paladin as your base class? If so, and if Cavalier improves your spellcasting, you might want to pick up the Battle Blessing feat from Complete Champion (lets you cast all Paladin spells as swift actions).

    The same book has the spells master cavalier, war-mount, and phantom charge, which have a synergistic effect with each other. If you have all three active at once (i.e., you cast master cavalier, with a 10 min/level duration, and war-mount, with a 1 min/level duration, and then use the swift action phantom charge) you have a +20 to ride checks on your mount, the mount has magic and good-aligned natural weapons, you and your mount can teleport once during a charge for 5 ft. per caster level, and your mount can run on liquids and fly until either war-mount or master cavalier runs out. I don't know if it's optimized, but it gets you a flying, water-walking mount.

    Also, if you scan through other sources, I'm sure there are some other Paladin spells that could work. Rhino's Charge, perhaps, and probably some from Core and Complete Divine.
    Last edited by RTGoodman; 2008-07-07 at 06:18 PM.
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    Kobold

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    Default Re: Gaia the Fierce Knight

    Quote Originally Posted by Deepblue706 View Post
    That depends. Cavalier gives bonuses when wielding a lance from atop a mount, and there are plenty of other things to make your attack bonus soar high enough so that two-weapon fighting penalties aren't as bad. Just make sure to grab Oversized Two-Weapon Fighting. The multiplier (x5 for a Cavalier 10) makes up for a lack of 2:1 PA trade.
    So, I'm sorry, I've always preferred TWF over THF and never really looked into the differences...

    Why is THF better again?

    EDIT: At the moment, I am playing a Sorcerer, but I always like to have a couple spare builds. Our party already has a paladin; I was thinking fighter (given that there are a BILLION feats that benefit charge)
    Last edited by shadow_archmagi; 2008-07-07 at 07:27 PM.
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    Ettin in the Playground
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    Default Re: Gaia the Fierce Knight

    Quote Originally Posted by shadow_archmagi View Post
    So, I'm sorry, I've always preferred TWF over THF and never really looked into the differences...

    Why is THF better again?
    The usual explainations (which may not apply to everything in this thread, I didn't read it all closely):

    Primarily, the best source of melee damage in D&D is Power Attack. With a two-handed weapon, power attack damage is doubled. Now, if you look at that thoughtlessly, you might say "So what? It's, say, +10 power attack damage in my two-handed weapon vs +5 power attack damage to each hit with the weapon in each hand."

    Ah, but that's before your other attacks are added in. Power Attack applies to each, doubling your damage output while two-weapon fighting adds extra attacks much more slowly, and with penalties. That means that if you power attack for 20 with six attacks (BAB + haste/swiftness) using a two-handed weapon, you do a total of 240 extra damage. If you power attack for 20 with nine attacks using a weapon in each hand (BAB + haste/swiftness + TWF), you do only 180 extra damage, and have a lower chance of hitting. Your weapons may add a bit of damage, but they're not going to overcome the difference.

    But that's just the beginning; the real uselessness of TWF becomes obvious when you start to consider standard attacks. When you make a single standard-action attack (like, say, as part of a Shock Trooper + Leap Attack heedless charge), you get to add the two-handed weapon multiplier to your damage. You don't get to add any bonus at all from two-weapon fighting, so you're essentially cutting your damage in half for no advantage, despite having wasted at least three feats on TWF... and given the speed of combat in D&D, many, many of your attacks are going to be charges like that.

    And it gets even worse. TWF also requires a large number of feats just to be useful (not to give you great damage, like the combo above -- just to grant one extra attack to your sequence.) You'll need something else on top of that to provide bonus damage to that extra attack to make it remotely useful (since weapon damage alone isn't so hot.)

    Whereas wielding a weapon in both hands requires no feats at all (well, Power Attack to be useful, but every melee-type needs Power Attack anyway.)

    Basically, THF scales very very well. TWF doesn't really scale at all -- the value of one extra attack in your sequence becomes less and less as you get up to higher levels. And since it requires so many feats, you can't do it at the one point when it would be useful (before level 6, when you don't have extra attacks already.)

    Now, there are some tricks that make TWF better. Generally, if you have both another source of extra damage on every attack and source of Pounce (or something like Psionic Lion's Charge, which can both let you get off your extra attacks and add damage to each) it can be better. But still, it just requires so much work to make TWF decent -- the sheer number of feats and so forth you have to sink into it is just generally not going to get you as much as you could have gotten if you went Power Attack + Shock Trooper + Leap Attack... and while Pounce builds can use TWF without sucking, they tend to do even better with THF, as I outlined for full attacks above.

    It's generally best used in pounce-rogue or psiwar builds, who have a good source of extra damage to make the extra attacks count, and who (in the case of the psiwar) have access to a form of Pounce already. (The fact that those classes have low BAB which limits their Power Attacking goodness helps, too.)
    Last edited by Aquillion; 2008-07-07 at 08:06 PM.

  12. - Top - End - #12
    Firbolg in the Playground
     
    Kobold

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    Default Re: Gaia the Fierce Knight

    Okay then, so, what is the lowest possible level at which this becomes viable?
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    Default Re: Gaia the Fierce Knight

    Valorous Enhancement (+1) from the Unapproachable East. Double damage on a charge. Of course, DnD math just makes you tack on on more to the multiplier, so after Spirited Charge it's a x4. Follow up with Impaling (+1) from Magic Item Compendium. 3/day, your lance attack is a touch attack, enabling you to basically power attack for full and still reliably hit (Reminiscent of Spiral Spear Strike, the support card for Gaia).

    While I personally used a Fleshraker mount (I had poison immunity, immense ranks in Handle Animal to raise an advanced Fleshraker, and a lenient DM), you might want a Dragonnel, from Draconomicon. Or, just a plain jane dragon. Seeing as Curse of Dragon (Gaia the Dragon Champion, whoo!) looks like a zombie dragon, you could totally go for a Skeletal Dragon. Unfortunately, those don't have fly speeds. Go figure. Battle Dragon may be a better choice, at least it fits the color scheme.

    As for lowest level availability, I'd say maybe sixth for a one lance build (Losing either Impaling or Valorous for the time being), and 8-9 for a two lance build. Spirited Charge is available quite early, but your wealth may not support the cost of two +3 weapons for a while.
    Last edited by Signmaker; 2008-07-08 at 09:40 AM.
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    Default Re: Gaia the Fierce Knight

    One factor is that you sometimes can't take a large mount to wherever you are adventuring. Sometimes, a Halfling with a humble Riding Dog is best.
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    Default Re: Gaia the Fierce Knight

    Quote Originally Posted by Sstoopidtallkid View Post
    One factor is that you sometimes can't take a large mount to wherever you are adventuring. Sometimes, a Halfling with a humble Riding Dog is best.
    In my defense, Fleshrakers ARE medium-sized.
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    Default Re: Gaia the Fierce Knight

    Ways to get pounce, free movement, or something in that ballpark:

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    1) Buy a wagon or chariot. Have an animal companion, special mount, hired NPC, or party member pull it.
    1) Lion Totem Barbarian 1 (Complete Champion)
    1) Snow Tiger Berserker feat (restrictions, Unapproachable East)
    1) Lion Tribe Warrior feat (restrictions, Shining South)
    2) Catfolk Pounce feat (Catfolk only, restrictions, Races of the Wild)
    3) Hustle power
    4) Psionic Lion's Charge power
    4) Marshal 4 (Miniatures Handbook)
    5) Lion's Charge (Druid 3/Ranger 2 spell, Spell Compendium)
    5) Knight's Move (Cleric 3/Paladin 2 spell, Spell Compendium)
    5) Wild Shape (any form that has pounce)
    5) White Raven Tactics - White Raven power (Tome of Battle)
    5) Paimon Vestige (Every enemy you move past hit, Tome of Magic)
    4) Pouncing Charge - Tiger Claw power (Tome of Battle)
    6) Lion's Pounce Wild feat (Complete Divine)
    6) Dervish 1 (dance limited times per day, Complete Warrior)
    6) Two Weapon Pounce feat (only 2 attacks, sucks, PHB II)
    7) Polymorph spell (many forms grant Pounce or similar abilities)
    7) Metamorphosis power (as Polymorph)
    8) Weretouched II: Tiger (while shifting, Eberron Campaign Setting)
    9) Mulhorandi Divine Minion
    9) Wild Plains Outrider 3 (Complete Adventurer)
    10) Claws of the Leopard: Spiked gauntlets only. (Comp Adventurer)
    10) Reachrunner 5 (restrictions, Races of Eberron)
    10) Crinty Shadow Maurauder 5 (Shining South)
    11) Kishi Charger 6 (Oriental Adventures)
    11) Wildrunner 6 (Races of the Wild)
    11) Singh Rager 4 (Oriental Adventures)
    11) Lion of Talisid 5 (Book of Exalted Deeds)
    11) Desert Tempest (Every enemy you move past hit, Tome of Battle)
    12) Ashworm Dragoon 7 (Sandstorm)
    12) Chupoclops Vestige (Tome of Magic)
    13) Geomancer 7 (Complete Divine)
    13) Halfling Outrider 8 (Complete Warrior)
    14) Cavalier 6 (Complete Warrior)
    14) Teflammar Shadowlord 4 (Unapproachable East)
    17) Shapechange spell
    17) Greater Metamorphosis power
    21) Dire Charge epic feat (Draconomicon)


    Note, many of these have various restrictions, and I'm too lazy to write them all out. So look them up before using them.

    Please let me know if I missed anything or got anything wrong.
    Last edited by Person_Man; 2009-01-27 at 05:23 PM.

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    Firbolg in the Playground
     
    Kobold

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    Default Re: Gaia the Fierce Knight

    Many thanks, person man!
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