"Sandstorm" should not make you think "To The Ships!"

[Deth Muncher]

In a 3.5 Sandstorm campaign I'm in, my party has been rousing forces to take on our former ally PCs who've defected and gone evil. One character in particular has devised one plan for doing so completely by accident: He's started raising a Navy.

"What!?" I hear you cry out, "a Navy? But you said Sandstorm not Stormwrack!" Oh yes, but as it stands, we're utilizing Sand Ships very well, thank you. So far, we've gotten the ship granted to us by our party's demigod, as well as 3-4 captured ships (From whom? Sand Pirates, silly.), as well as one chartered merchant ship ( a "sloop" I believe they call it.). As it stands, the character who thought of the idea is our Admiral, with myself as the Rear Admiral, and another guy as Vice Admiral. Myself, being the only one who took the Leadership feat, has gotten us a small army of Swashbucklers (something like 30-40) to crew the boats as well as to storm the towns we take. (Side note: Taking cities for ourselves would certainly SEEM like an Evil act, except we're reclaiming them for our LG Demigod, so it's all good.)

How would you guys go about improving this? I mean, should we be supplimenting our ships with air support? How would we even go about that?

Also, any organization techniques would be super.

[SilverSheriff]

I want to play now.

[Deth Muncher]

I want to play now.

Heh...yeah...the guy always seems to come up with these really good ideas. Like Bluffing a guard into eating a bead off of a Necklace of Fireball by saying it was a Concentrated Strength Potion.

[Hal]

It sounds like the game has gone from RP to strategy.

Some thoughts:

1) Get a spy into the enemy's forces in order to learn about his ship movements and so forth.

2) Air support: (Mage + Overland flight + Wand of Fireball) x Y, where Y is whatever you need to make your DM cry.

3) Do you have enough ships to directly challenge this guy? If yes, epic battle! If not, then you should try to lure him out somehow and then have a "nautical" sneak attack.

[Doresain]

what you need now is some form of submarine...ashworm riders or those sand-swimming people in sandstorm (their name escapes me at the moment) would do the trick

heck if you have a necromancer in the group, just reanimate a bunch of big nasty flying critters and have them slowly weaken the opposing forces, while your main force mops up whats left...just remember that although it says animating corpses is a no-no for good characters, its being done for the greater good

[Deth Muncher]

A little clarification:

We're literally facing off against another party. Like, full of PCs. Because we had the choice to pick good and evil, and a few picked good and most picked evil. Since then, the good side has filled back out though. The evil guys have gotten an army raised, as well as having a few minions and summoned undead (they'uns gots a blackguard y'all!). They, however, do not have a "navy." We, on the other hand, have a developing navy, but a smaller army.


And no necromancers for us, unfortunately.

[crazedloon]

Your new friends = Ashworm dragoons

Ashworms can lift 2500 pounds and with effort 5000 pounds now combine a few dragoons together and you can quickly lift and flip enemy ships before they can even engage your ships. an average galley weighs around 7000 pounds empty (this was done rather roughly with arms and equipment translated into the sandstorm ships) so 3 worms should be able to lift and tip a single ship. The worms each can approach a ship undetected underground (I would suggest asheratis dragoons as they can signal eachother underground with their light ability and can stay underground with their worms without the chance of death due to no air) then burst up and flip as many ships as they can before getting back underground. From their the worms and riders can pick off the crew while using the flipped ships as blocking terrain and your ships can come in and provide support or take down any ships not flipped in the first go.....

I would have way to much fun with this

[Deth Muncher]

Your new friends = Ashworm dragoons

Ashworms can lift 2500 pounds and with effort 5000 pounds now combine a few dragoons together and you can quickly lift and flip enemy ships before they can even engage your ships. an average galley weighs around 7000 pounds empty (this was done rather roughly with arms and equipment translated into the sandstorm ships) so 3 worms should be able to lift and tip a single ship. The worms each can approach a ship undetected underground (I would suggest asheratis dragoons as they can signal eachother underground with their light ability and can stay underground with their worms without the chance of death due to no air) then burst up and flip as many ships as they can before getting back underground. From their the worms and riders can pick off the crew while using the flipped ships as blocking terrain and your ships can come in and provide support or take down any ships not flipped in the first go.....

I would have way to much fun with this

Well, again, as I say, they don't have ships. Although, this is a very interesting idea that might be used against us. I need to be sure they don't think of that.

[Hal]

Well, do you know anything about the army they've raised? And what sort of armaments do the ships have?

A simple tactic would be to just put a couple of low-level mages on each ship and give them each a wand of fireball. They'll be able to take out a lot of that army well outside of archery range, provided the enemy can utilize it. Enemy spellcasters will be a problem, though.

[Deth Muncher]

Well, do you know anything about the army they've raised? And what sort of armaments do the ships have?

A simple tactic would be to just put a couple of low-level mages on each ship and give them each a wand of fireball. They'll be able to take out a lot of that army well outside of archery range, provided the enemy can utilize it. Enemy spellcasters will be a problem, though.

Well, this would work. The minor problems is that my DM is a bit of a noob at it, and flinches at the merest chance we'll break the game. So mass-produced items are usually stabbed in the face as soon as they're suggested.

That said, I might be able to suggest it. It's a good idea.

I can't wait til I get Overland Flight.

[Hal]

Well, this would work. The minor problems is that my DM is a bit of a noob at it, and flinches at the merest chance we'll break the game. So mass-produced items are usually stabbed in the face as soon as they're suggested.

That said, I might be able to suggest it. It's a good idea.

I can't wait til I get Overland Flight.

Well, the cheapest wand of fireball you can get is 11,250 gp. According to the rules, the GM can rule that such items (costing more than 3000 gp) are rare and hard to come by in a normal town.

However, scrolls of fireball are only 375gp. You won't get the same bang for your buck as you would with wands, but your GM shouldn't be able to argue against your finding at least a few of these lying around, or the requisite wizard willing to make one. I'm sure he'd be thrilled to make a couple thousand gp for the cause.

[SolkaTruesilver]

Find gigantic Sand Worms, and ride them. Nothing ever beaten gigantic Sand Worms.

[Sholos]

Unless one of the enemies' names is Paul!

[SolkaTruesilver]

Unless one of the enemies' names is Paul!

Beat them by speed, and name one of your random mook Paul, give him Psychicwarrior ranks with Prescience, and you're in for a total win!

But then, you'll have to conquer the whole region world.. that may be troublesome. Specially if you actually try to convert them at the same time...

[Hunter Noventa]

I second the motion for Sand Submarines. Gnomes ought to be able to come up with one. And maybe sand torpedoes of some kind too while they're at it. And some giant constructs to laucnh out of said Sand Submarine...oh wait...I'm thinking of the Yggdrasil now.

[Doresain]

so from the sounds of it, you'll be facing off against ground troops and possibly aerial troops...i still think it would be a good idea to get some ashworms, because even if you don't have to deal with enemy navy, they work really well against your average infantry unit...

[Deth Muncher]

Well, the thing about Ashworms is we're not going to be finding any Dragoons. Unfortunately. That said, I'm sure a few Ashworm pellets would behoove us greatly.

And as to enemy air support, I know they have a single Sandshaper, who has OLF at will over sand. Now, I guess if we could lure them elsewhere away from sand....

[Hal]

Well, the thing about Ashworms is we're not going to be finding any Dragoons. Unfortunately. That said, I'm sure a few Ashworm pellets would behoove us greatly.

And as to enemy air support, I know they have a single Sandshaper, who has OLF at will over sand. Now, I guess if we could lure them elsewhere away from sand....

Well, if you can get anyone who can cast drift magic, Transmute Sand to Glass/Stone would certainly cause your foe to plummet. Any sort of entangling effect will get a caster out of the air as well (such as a Tanglefoot Bag or any other spell).

[Deth Muncher]

Well, if you can get anyone who can cast drift magic, Transmute Sand to Glass/Stone would certainly cause your foe to plummet. Any sort of entangling effect will get a caster out of the air as well (such as a Tanglefoot Bag or any other spell).

Hm. Would, say, Spell + Bracers of Entanglement work?

EDIT: Drift Magic...that requires that feat, does it not? I think the enemy Sandshaper is the only one with acess to it. But concievably, our good team has 3 sorcerors (including myself) so we could start taking Drift Spells.

[Triaxx]

I'm assuming someone has developed catapults, correct? Try mounting one or two on the merchant ship, and filling them with potions of explosions. In one volley you do what wizards would normally accomplish, without the give away of a bunch of robed guys standing on the decks.

Are these fly through the air, or slide through sand like water ships? The tactics involved vary depending. Top spoiler for airships, bottom spoiler for groundships.

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First thing to remember is that archers have height and range advantage from airships, and can rake the opposing army from range. Attach spiked chains to the bottoms of the pirate ships, and send them racing at speed through the army. That smarts something awful. Dropping fireballs, or potions of explosion over the side as you go through with the chains is good.

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Build outriggers that mount to the outsides of the pirate ships, so the bars are chest high. Hang sharp objects from the rear bar to catch anyone that lays down, and go at speed through the enemy. Look up cowcatchers and mount them on the bows of the ships.

If you run them so each ship is just behind another with a bit of over lap on the outrigging will catch most of the army. Edge the front bar, and station archers to shoot off anyone trying to climb onto the pontoons, or bars. Any special arrow that can knock back enemies is good, as are spells that can do the same.

[SilentNight]

Arcane support, you could crew the sloop with asherati sabotuers, drop them off, wreck havock, pick them back up, wrinse, repeat. What level is it?

[Deth Muncher]

Arcane support, you could crew the sloop with asherati sabotuers, drop them off, wreck havock, pick them back up, wrinse, repeat. What level is it?

We're...er...wow. I don't remember, actually. I haven't actually played in a while: the DM and I were both in Ireland, so the campaign got put on hold. I know we just leveled up, so we're either level 10 or 11. This situation of us using the ships to overrun an army isn't going to happen any time soon though.

We're currently using ground ships, unfortunately. I really wanted an Airship, but the DM said no.

I really think a good bet would be to have people with wands of...well. Er. That spell sandshapers can do that makes the sand all goopy and traps you inside of it. You know, incapacitate their army what with bing encased in concrete.


Also, I liked the catapult idea. My character is currently studying with a Siege Engineer so I can take ranks of Knowlege in it, and I might look and see if I cant build some trebuchets onto our ships. Currently, we just have ballistas. AND NO GUNPOWDER. DM says "Desert = gunpowder combusts, end of story."

Off topic: Y'know, if I didn't have a character concept already picked out, I'd go Sandshaper. They're too freaking good.

[AgentPaper]

Giant metal rolling balls of doom. Big metal ball, somewhat hollow but still heavy enough to crush a man. Hole through the center. Each ship is fitted with 2 rods on each side pointing up, which these balls sit on. The rods are on hinges, and can be released so that each will fall outwards, while remaining attached to the balls. Essentially, the balls are then wheels that are quickly spun up to speed by the motion of the boat over the sand. All of this is done as you are heading towards an enemy formation of troops. Once you're somewhat close to the troops, release the balls, and watch as they start to flatten people.

Really effective if the enemy is made of a few, heavy armored and well organized troops. Also effective against walls, probably. If you can get the balls to explode and throw shrapnel, all the better. Best thing is, it can't be hard to cobble together a rough metal sphere from bits of metal, and you can have a bunch of these on one ship, all lined up on each side. The amount of time spent training to use this and making the balls might be an issue, but if you got time, it's fine.

Other than that, you should make a bunch of smaller boats, with a driver and 2-3 archers, all with mounted combat. They would be about the size of a life boat, but with a sail to catch the wind and a rudder, and maybe some spikes on the front, or even better blades out the sides. Lightly made is a must, however.

Then, get a druid or any other caster who can to cast control weather, and make strong winds. First the winds blow from you towards the enemy, and you use those winds to rocket your little boats across the lines, cutting people with the side-blades, firing arrows, and stabbing them with spears if you get the chance. Then, turn the wind around again. Repeat as many times as possible. If the DM will allow it, you could create a kind of circular wind, but without making a tornado, and then use that to circle around the enemy army all you want.

Works for big ships too, but small ships with proportionally large sails will just leap off the ground. In contrast to the big ball, this would work especially well against a less organized, lightly armored force, and is best out in the field. A combination of the two would make a great combo.


Also, can I join your group? I propose myself as "Master of Arms" for the good guys.

[SilentNight]

Giant metal rolling balls of doom. Big metal ball, somewhat hollow but still heavy enough to crush a man. Hole through the center. Each ship is fitted with 2 rods on each side pointing up, which these balls sit on. The rods are on hinges, and can be released so that each will fall outwards, while remaining attached to the balls. Essentially, the balls are then wheels that are quickly spun up to speed by the motion of the boat over the sand. All of this is done as you are heading towards an enemy formation of troops. Once you're somewhat close to the troops, release the balls, and watch as they start to flatten people.

Really effective if the enemy is made of a few, heavy armored and well organized troops. Also effective against walls, probably. If you can get the balls to explode and throw shrapnel, all the better. Best thing is, it can't be hard to cobble together a rough metal sphere from bits of metal, and you can have a bunch of these on one ship, all lined up on each side. The amount of time spent training to use this and making the balls might be an issue, but if you got time, it's fine.

Other than that, you should make a bunch of smaller boats, with a driver and 2-3 archers, all with mounted combat. They would be about the size of a life boat, but with a sail to catch the wind and a rudder, and maybe some spikes on the front, or even better blades out the sides. Lightly made is a must, however.

Then, get a druid or any other caster who can to cast control weather, and make strong winds. First the winds blow from you towards the enemy, and you use those winds to rocket your little boats across the lines, cutting people with the side-blades, firing arrows, and stabbing them with spears if you get the chance. Then, turn the wind around again. Repeat as many times as possible. If the DM will allow it, you could create a kind of circular wind, but without making a tornado, and then use that to circle around the enemy army all you want.

Works for big ships too, but small ships with proportionally large sails will just leap off the ground. In contrast to the big ball, this would work especially well against a less organized, lightly armored force, and is best out in the field. A combination of the two would make a great combo.


Also, can I join your group? I propose myself as "Master of Arms" for the good guys.

How would you get it over the dunes though? Other than that it's awesome.
I want to join too!

[AgentPaper]

How would you get it over the dunes though? Other than that it's awesome.
I want to join too!

Uh, same way you get the ships over?

[D Knight]

you could make sand mines that look like sand dunes but alarm spell will tigger delayed fireball set for 5 rounds enough time for a large number of men to be in the area when it blowes. it would then make them wonder about all sand dunes, talk about irrational fears this would be the funniest to use. Also ashworm dragoons can move undergrond in any material at lv 10 and still breath.

[Deth Muncher]

Heh, sorry guys, this is an IRL campaign. And the giant metal ball thing confused me. Could I get some sort of graphic representation?

[Yakk]

It doesn't work that well, from what I read. (the ball would just come to a stop relatively quickly).

So you are fighting a war. Your enemy has more troops than you do, but you move quicker.

The downside? The enemy has a "core" that moves as quickly or quicker than you do (the enemy party), and possibly the ability to get inside your decision loop with precognition spells.

A strategic thing to do would be to attempt to gather power and forces. You can concentrate power, take over a region, muster troops from the area, and then use them on the next region.

Attempt to build fortresses that carry supplies. They have to be reasonably fortified. Ideally they should be "friendly" with the locals (if coerced friendliness). Increase the size of your navy by more building and more capturing.

Make money by trade (you want a merchant-marine which can be pressed into service for conflict) -- goods tend to vary in price, and every such variance is money in your bank.

One of the advantage of a navy over an army is that you can move further. Armies are tied to their tummies, often. An enemy of zombies... sort of cancels this problem, sadly. As does lots of clerics with create food and drink. :/ You still move faster, however!

You need a force of "grunts" that aren't part of your crew. You'll want to attack with your ships, drop off concentrated marine grunts, then go get more troops once you have taken over. Have supplies at your way-fortresses, so you use them as staging areas.

Or ... cheat more. Start working on teleport circles -- a teleport circle in a single ship can transport an army anywhere the ship goes (hmm, too high level).

Note that gaining in levels is ridiculously powerful.

[Deth Muncher]

It doesn't work that well, from what I read. (the ball would just come to a stop relatively quickly).

So you are fighting a war. Your enemy has more troops than you do, but you move quicker.

The downside? The enemy has a "core" that moves as quickly or quicker than you do (the enemy party), and possibly the ability to get inside your decision loop with precognition spells.

A strategic thing to do would be to attempt to gather power and forces. You can concentrate power, take over a region, muster troops from the area, and then use them on the next region.

Attempt to build fortresses that carry supplies. They have to be reasonably fortified. Ideally they should be "friendly" with the locals (if coerced friendliness). Increase the size of your navy by more building and more capturing.

Make money by trade (you want a merchant-marine which can be pressed into service for conflict) -- goods tend to vary in price, and every such variance is money in your bank.

One of the advantage of a navy over an army is that you can move further. Armies are tied to their tummies, often. An enemy of zombies... sort of cancels this problem, sadly. As does lots of clerics with create food and drink. :/ You still move faster, however!

You need a force of "grunts" that aren't part of your crew. You'll want to attack with your ships, drop off concentrated marine grunts, then go get more troops once you have taken over. Have supplies at your way-fortresses, so you use them as staging areas.

Or ... cheat more. Start working on teleport circles -- a teleport circle in a single ship can transport an army anywhere the ship goes (hmm, too high level).

Note that gaining in levels is ridiculously powerful.

Right. Well, yeah, we're trying to gain levels. We're all level 10 now (I checked).

As to the "grunts" thing: Basically what we end up doing is when we assault a city (as we have been so far), what we do is have all crew on ship until a wall is breached, then everyone who isnt absolutely necesary for keeping the shi[ running/shooting ballistas goes off the ship and storms the breach.
And yeah. So far they don't have an army of zombies, just a Blackguard. Their bard, however, plans on taking the PrC from Libris Mortis, so that could be a problem. Mostly, they've got the same thing as us: Level One Swashbucklers, en masse. Well, maybe they have fighters. I'm not sure.

What I just thought of, however, is something from Warhammer 40k: Specifically, The Space Orks. More specifically: What they do to their vehicles. As in, giant roller blade things. That could be handy.

[Triaxx]

Why I didn't think of it before, but use those pirate boats as over sized arrow chariots. Race past and fire a volley of arrows into the enemy force. Then you can swing wide and come around again.

A life boat full of explosive, gunpowder, alchemists fire, potions of explosion, is always a fun way to say:

'I know where you are, and I'm coming to kill you.'