[3rd Ed] Savage Species Type Pyramid

[CelestialStick]

It's not clear to me whether the type pyramid from pages 142 and 143 applies to the type of the base creature or just the type of an added template. An outsider, for instance, appears at the very top of they pyramid. If you've added an outsider template to a base creature and then add a dragon template, the pyramid causes the creature to remain an outsider. That much is clear from the language on page 143 under "Construct, Outsider, Undead:" "If some other template is applied to them, they generally retain whichever of these three types they have."

What causes confusion is the language "if some other template," which implies that the base creature became an outsider by the application of a template. To me it would make sense that it doesn't matter whether a creature started as a outsider or became an outsider from a template, that either way you can't change the outsider type with the application of a template, whether it's another template or the only template.

So if you took the half-dragon template and applied it to the scyllan, an outsider from Stormwrack, would it become a dragon (replacing its d8 hit dice with d12 hit dice and its 8 skill points per die with 6 skill points per die) because dragon is the first template applied and the pyramid applies only to creature type from templates? Or would it remain an outsider because the pyramid applies to creature type regardless of its origin?

How do you interpret it, and why? Thanks.

[erikun]

I have no clue what you're talking about, but let me try.

"Construct, Outsider, Undead:" "If some other template is applied to them, they generally retain whichever of these three types they have."

Reading this, my interpretation is that the sentence only applies to those three types - that is, if you start with a Construct/Outsider/Undead and apply another template (say, for Outsider), then you end up with another Construct/Outsider/Undead, not an Outsider. If you are applying a template to something else, then reference the pyramid.

Then again, you could just say "What should the new creature be considered?" If you are making an Undead Outsider because the Solar died and was raised as an undead, then it would probably be an Undead. On the other hand, if the undead lich monk has gained enlightenment and become elevated to a lawful good outsider, it might make more sense to make the creature an Outsider.

[CelestialStick]

I have no clue what you're talking about, but let me try.


Reading this, my interpretation is that the sentence only applies to those three types - that is, if you start with a Construct/Outsider/Undead and apply another template (say, for Outsider), then you end up with another Construct/Outsider/Undead, not an Outsider. If you are applying a template to something else, then reference the pyramid.

Then again, you could just say "What should the new creature be considered?" If you are making an Undead Outsider because the Solar died and was raised as an undead, then it would probably be an Undead. On the other hand, if the undead lich monk has gained enlightenment and become elevated to a lawful good outsider, it might make more sense to make the creature an Outsider.

Thanks, erikun!

The text at the very bottom of the first column of page 143 says, "The last template applied determines the final creature type, unless the current type is higher on the type pyramid. Actually I hadn't noticed that text before; it seems to answer my question. The current type of a base scylla is outsider, which occupies a higher position on the type pyramid than dragon, so applying the half-dragon template doesn't change the type from outsider down to dragon.

[Gwyn chan 'r Gwyll]

I thought you couldn't make undead outsiders?

[CelestialStick]

I thought you couldn't make undead outsiders?

According to Savage Species on page 143, "Once a creature becomes a construct or an undead through the application of a template, it cannot become something else."