[4e] Stunlocking Fix?

[JaxGaret]

I've noticed that it's been suggested that the best tactic for dealing with most Elites and especially Solos is to stunlock them and kill them without them being able to do anything back to you.

Here is a suggested fix for that eventuality: Remove Stunned as a condition and replace it with something else (in other words, just change what being Stunned means).

One simple solution is to take two of the other conditions and combine them; Dazed + Prone might work pretty well.

Any other suggestions or comments?

[Rachel Lorelei]

That would devalue Stunning powers.

You could give solos a bonus to saving throws, or make them dazed with penalties instead of stunned. Elites are fine, I think.

[Charity]

Don't they already get +5?
If you give them any more it will make them immune to all but the omni-orb mage.

[Rachel Lorelei]

Don't they already get +5?
If you give them any more it will make them immune to all but the omni-orb mage.

I meant to saves vs. stun specifically. And, yes, it would nigh-guarantee that they pass their saves, but it'd still have worked during their turn (save at the end of the turn).

[Dausuul]

I've noticed that it's been suggested that the best tactic for dealing with most Elites and especially Solos is to stunlock them and kill them without them being able to do anything back to you.

Here is a suggested fix for that eventuality: Remove Stunned as a condition and replace it with something else (in other words, just change what being Stunned means).

One simple solution is to take two of the other conditions and combine them; Dazed + Prone might work pretty well.

Any other suggestions or comments?

How does one achieve this stunlock? To the best of my knowledge, there are no at-wills that inflict stun and not very many encounter powers.

[JaxGaret]

How does one achieve this stunlock? To the best of my knowledge, there are no at-wills that inflict stun and not very many encounter powers.

Don't ask me, ask the folks who bandy it about like it's the second coming of JC.

[JaxGaret]

That would devalue Stunning powers.

You are correct, of course.

You could give solos a bonus to saving throws, or make them dazed with penalties instead of stunned. Elites are fine, I think.

That might be a solution as well.

Another one that I just thought of this morning is to make the Stunned condition the only condition one saves against at the beginning of their turn, instead of at the end; this would also devalue Stunning in general, however.

[Crow]

Stunlock is only a problem when you have lvl 30 demigods. Stunning is fine. It's Divine Miracle which needs to be fixed.

[Oracle_Hunter]

And heaven forbid that a level 30 character actually be able to do something amazing!

Man, during the forum outage, I started reading the WotC forums... what a bunch of wackos! It seems like nobody builds a character at less than level 30, and crows about how a single, once-per-day combo (only available at level 30) somehow breaks the game.

Jeez

[Crow]

Stop. Just Stop. The "It's Ok because it's level 30 argument is BS and you know it. Divine Miracle, which has no upper limit (*the root of the problem), blows away every other lvl 30 power. Just because it's level 30 doesn't mean it's not Broken.

I'm sure you were fine with Celerity+timestop+dimlock+forcecage+cloudkill because "a character that level should be able to do something amazing".

Seriously, don't even bother.

Edit: Added in Dimensional Lock...I had forgotten it.

[TempusCCK]

I've noticed that it's been suggested that the best tactic for dealing with most Elites and especially Solos is to stunlock them and kill them without them being able to do anything back to you.

Here is a suggested fix for that eventuality: Remove Stunned as a condition and replace it with something else (in other words, just change what being Stunned means).

One simple solution is to take two of the other conditions and combine them; Dazed + Prone might work pretty well.

Any other suggestions or comments?

/thread-derail

Ok, hilarious and I'm sure it'll irk alot of people off but, I was positive he was talking about World of Warcraft until he started talking about Dazed and Prone, almost all of the terms before that being completely interchangable between the two games.

You may now resume your regularly scheduled discussion.

[Dausuul]

Stop. Just Stop. The "It's Ok because it's level 30 argument is BS and you know it. Divine Miracle, which has no upper limit (*the root of the problem), blows away every other lvl 30 power. Just because it's level 30 doesn't mean it's not Broken.

I'm sure you were fine with Celerity+timestop+forcecage+cloudkill because "a character that level should be able to do something amazing".

Seriously, don't even bother.

It's a broken combo, yes. It's also a minor issue. Celerity/timestop/forcecage/cloudkill was similarly a minor issue. (Most of the stuff you fought at that level was too big to fit in the forcecage, able to teleport out, or just plain immune to poison. Wizards were broken in 3.X not because of that combo but because they could use spells to bypass everything that normal characters had to struggle through, including monster hit points.)

[Oracle_Hunter]

It's a broken combo, yes. It's also a minor issue. Celerity/timestop/forcecage/cloudkill was similarly a minor issue. (Most of the stuff you fought at that level was too big to fit in the forcecage, able to teleport out, or just plain immune to poison. Wizards were broken in 3.X not because of that combo but because they could use spells to bypass everything that normal characters had to struggle through, including monster hit points.)

What he said.

Man, Crow, touch a nerve?

[Rachel Lorelei]

It's a "minor" issue in that it won't come up that often, but by this reasoning 9th-level spells were a minor issue.

It stops being a minor issue for anyone who actually intends to play at level 30, because it makes demigods (a) disproportionately powerful and (b) so vastly better a choice than the other Epic Destinies everyone who remotely cares about that will pick it.

[Oracle_Hunter]

It's a "minor" issue in that it won't come up that often, but by this reasoning 9th-level spells were a minor issue.

It stops being a minor issue for anyone who actually intends to play at level 30, because it makes demigods (a) disproportionately powerful and (b) so vastly better a choice than the other Epic Destinies everyone who remotely cares about that will pick it.

That's true... but do many people just roll up level 30 characters all the time? I mean, I've never done it, and it seems kind of silly to ignore the other 29/30ths of the game.

Also, this is actually less of an issue than 9th level spells since 9th level spells were around for at least 4 levels and could be accessed earlier through scrolls. Here, it is literally a problem for the last level supported in the game.

And, as has been noted in the WotC forums, Demigod is actually sub-par for levels 20-29 compared to the other epic destinies. Or at least on par.

Making mountains out of molehills is how I see it, but maybe other people just play much differently than I?

[Rachel Lorelei]

It's a clear balance issue. It's not important until level 30, but at level 30 it's overwhelmingly important because it fundamentally changes how the game plays.

I don't see how squabbling over just how minor or major a deal that is will help. I'm not sure why you'd object to someone fixing it just because it doesn't come up for you.

[Oracle_Hunter]

It's a clear balance issue. It's not important until level 30, but at level 30 it's overwhelmingly important because it fundamentally changes how the game plays.

I don't see how squabbling over just how minor or major a deal that is will help. I'm not sure why you'd object to someone fixing it just because it doesn't come up for you.

Oh, I'm not objecting to them fixing it, but I am objecting to the sound and fury that it engenders.

Stunlocks, Orb Wizards, Seal of Binding + Divine Regeneration... heck, at least Blade Cascade showed up at level 15. There wasn't this much angst over Diplomancy in 3e, and that was a problem from level 2!

[ArmorArmadillo]

I'll look up the specific issues here, but I noted someone saying there was a problem with an infinite loop.

Whatever it is, and again I'll look it up later, just put a cap on it. A la Blade Cascade.

[Rachel Lorelei]

Oh, I'm not objecting to them fixing it, but I am objecting to the sound and fury that it engenders.

People complaining excessively?

On the internet?!

UNPOSSIBLE.

[Dausuul]

It's a clear balance issue. It's not important until level 30, but at level 30 it's overwhelmingly important because it fundamentally changes how the game plays.

I don't see how squabbling over just how minor or major a deal that is will help. I'm not sure why you'd object to someone fixing it just because it doesn't come up for you.

I agree that there is a problem, especially considering that this exploit targets solos and elites, which means it's very likely to be useful in the climactic battle of the campaign. And I have no objections to somebody fixing it. But I think it's silly to implement the fix by changing fundamental rules of the game (solo and elite saving throws, the nature of stun, and so forth) to address a problem created by one single power.

In 3.X, candles of invocation were broken as hell, because they let you summon CR 20+ monsters at a relatively low level. To fix this, would you rewrite every high-level monster so that it would be balanced when summoned by the candle? Or would you just ban the freakin' candle?

Divine Miracle is the problem here, so fix Divine Miracle. It might be as simple as saying you're not allowed to regain the same encounter power twice in a row.

[Rachel Lorelei]

Divine Miracle is one problem; the effectiveness of stunning against solos is another. A wizard with an orb of inevitable continuance and his own Orb can throw out at least two 2-round stuns in a row every encounter. Add in a Warlock, more stuff for the wizard, one of the other party members, and we're talking about, what, potentially 8 rounds? That's a long time for solo monsters not to do anything. Of course, boosting saves vs. stun wouldn't help, here.

Also, letting people switch back and forth between two potent encounter powers wouldn't make Divine Miracle that much more tolerable.

[Myatar_Panwar]

Making mountains out of molehills is how I see it, but maybe other people just play much differently than I?

Yes, I also find it kind of odd that people seem to be fretting so much over a power you will see for maybe 3.33 % of your adventurer careeer if even that, unless you are running a level 30 campain or something.

Also, would a fair enough fix be to just only allow power recharge, with a recharge roll? Like monsters? Ok, so it'd be like "Oh noes, I'm all out of E powers, now I need to roll a 4-6 to get one back." Or maybe just make the power recieved random. Thus you can avoid things like stun AoE's being used every round.

[Dausuul]

Divine Miracle is one problem; the effectiveness of stunning against solos is another. A wizard with an orb of inevitable continuance and his own Orb can throw out at least two 2-round stuns in a row every encounter.

But will they hit? That's the key question. Solos tend to have fairly solid defenses, especially solos that are higher-level than the party. (Also, the orb of inevitable continuance is only usable once per day, not once per encounter.)

Also, letting people switch back and forth between two potent encounter powers wouldn't make Divine Miracle that much more tolerable.

Fair enough. Then perhaps Myatar's solution of randomizing the power you get back is a better fix.

[Starbuck_II]

Yes, I also find it kind of odd that people seem to be fretting so much over a power you will see for maybe 3.33 % of your adventurer careeer if even that, unless you are running a level 30 campain or something.

Also, would a fair enough fix be to just only allow power recharge, with a recharge roll? Like monsters? Ok, so it'd be like "Oh noes, I'm all out of E powers, now I need to roll a 4-6 to get one back." Or maybe just make the power recieved random. Thus you can avoid things like stun AoE's being used every round.

I think I figured out what the prob is:
Since 4th is so balanced people harp on any powergaming issue they can get. I mean, 4th is hard on a powergamer.
Powergaming doesn't make you 100% better in 4th only 10%.

So people yell about any inch they can get.

[Oracle_Hunter]

But will they hit? That's the key question. Solos tend to have fairly solid defenses, especially solos that are higher-level than the party.

This runs into the infinite rerolls problem. I'd say, as a houserule, to invoke the 40K rule of "no rerolls for rerolls" and be done with it. It certainly doesn't make having tons of rerolls less good, but it limits the probability of doing ridiculous things like the original Orcusslayer and the new Infinite Damage Build.

[Rachel Lorelei]

But will they hit? That's the key question. Solos tend to have fairly solid defenses, especially solos that are higher-level than the party. (Also, the orb of inevitable continuance is only usable once per day, not once per encounter.)

In epic, you can use three different Orbs of Inevitable Continuance over two encounters, if you're not using other items. After the second you get to use them again.

They'll definitely hit if there's a Tactical Warlord in the party (the size of the Tactical Warlord's bonuses compared to the other leaders is a bigger and less simple issue than Divine Miracle), and are fairly likely to hit if a different Leader is particularly cooperative.

Fair enough. Then perhaps Myatar's solution of randomizing the power you get back is a better fix.

I'd suggest restoring all of them once you run out. Maybe even once per fight (basically doubling your encounter powers).

[Oracle_Hunter]

In epic, you can use three different Orbs of Inevitable Continuance over two encounters, if you're not using other items. After the second you get to use them again.

Ah, but that doesn't work!

At 21st–30th level, you can use three magic item
daily powers per day.

Emphasis mine. Use your three orbs, and you won't be able to use any other magic item Daily Powers until you take a Long Rest.

[Myatar_Panwar]

But you gain an extra item use after every two encounters, just like with action points. But still, you cannot ever use the daily power a single item possesses more than once per day, unless its an artifact. Unless I'm misunderstanding what you guys are discussing.

[Oracle_Hunter]

But you gain an extra item use after every two encounters, just like with action points. But still, you cannot ever use the daily power a single item possesses more than once per day, unless its an artifact. Unless I'm misunderstanding what you guys are discussing.

Huh, you are correct. Well done!

[wodan46]

Divine Miracle simply recharging all encounter powers when empty would do a good job of preventing stunlock abuse.

You 1 item daily power per milestone on top of the regular amount.