[3.5] Monk House Rules and Multiclassing

[DeathQuaker]

Hi. I'm planning to run a D&D game in a couple months, 3.5 with house rules. This will be mostly core only (only a handful of already chosen non-core feats and prestige classes), no psionics. Characters will be 10th level. None of these items are debatable.

I'm cleaning up my houserules* and have made some tweaks to some races and classes in an attempt to balance their behavior. I want to make some tweaks to the Monk to make them a more viable player class for more people. I like the monk class and I think there's a lot that can be done with it, but I want to give it a few more advantages.

I'll note I have some grappling houserules that I don't feel like going into that help monks even as they are.

Thoughts include boosting the Hit Die back to 1d10 (it is largely a combat based class, after all) and maybe adding a couple more bonus feats, or alternatively keeping the HD where it is but boost skill points and make it an alternate skill monkey class. Constructive thoughts on that are appreciated.

I also want to lift multiclassing restrictions--I think the class has a lot more to offer if it's easier to multiclass with. But are there any cheese-pitfalls to avoid if I allow this? (Is the Miko Pala-monk that badass?)

I realize on this board just bringing up the word "monk" can lead to flaming and repetitious argument, and I wouldn't ask except that class tweaking just isn't something I'm very good at, so I'm looking for help from my peers on this. Any post consisting of "monks suck", "players of monks suck", or hijacked debates into these areas will be ignored by me.

Constructive comments and suggestions however are greatly appreciated. Thank you

* If by chance you find the ones on my Website, not those. Those are old and need vast revision.

[Adumbration]

I've heard that giving the monk full base attack bonus progression helps.

[Starbuck_II]

I want to make some tweaks to the Monk to make them a more viable player class for more people. I like the monk class and I think there's a lot that can be done with it, but I want to give it a few more advantages.

Thoughts include boosting the Hit Die back to 1d10 (it is largely a combat based class, after all) and maybe adding a couple more bonus feats, or alternatively keeping the HD where it is but boost skill points and make it an alternate skill monkey class. Constructive thoughts on that are appreciated.

Monk strengthing Ideas in total I can remember (not saying use all):
1) 1d10 HD
2) Flurrying as standard action (the reason is Monk get speed boost, but can't use flurry is using movement)
3) Monk can use any weapon for flurry
4) Instead of Monk abilities (instead of feat at 1st) can take a Martial Manuever from Tome of Battle (Counting as martial adeopt for that power).
But than Swordsage fulfills this role already so not a often used houserule.
5) Can use +X Guantlets and still recieve unarmed Strike damage bonus and Flurry. (technically the FAQ says yes, but it is ambiguious so solve it by using houserule)
6) Full BAB

I also want to lift multiclassing restrictions--I think the class has a lot more to offer if it's easier to multiclass with. But are there any cheese-pitfalls to avoid if I allow this? (Is the Miko Pala-monk that badass?)

It only makes a great choice Druids and Clerics stronger. More Druid since everyone has an unarmed strikes even animal forms.

Really, it won't hurt balance much.

[quiet1mi]

by making the monk have a full attack progression you...

• allow him to disarm,grapple,trip a martial opponent more reliably
• allow the monk to take the shtick of having multiple attacks per round [you will have to give the ranger something because of this]

by keeping the flurry of blows action full round you...

• keep the interaction of two weapon fighting and thus strengthen the shtick of the character that hits you multiple times a round
• prevent other classes from jut dipping into monk for 1 level and instantly become twice as effective for 1 standard action
• make it something special [if you hit someone a lot in a six second increment you will not be able to get out of there]
  
  [remember it is hit and run not hits and run]

also you may want to model the class after the ninja from complete adventurer... use the ki pool system and then you can trade all those useless things like quivering palm that is usable once a week to quivering palm that is costing a lot of ki points...

I also recommend adding class features that are more martial artsy and less random magic.("talking to squirrels" I am looking at you)

[arguskos]

In my homebrew setting, my monk class has d10's, 6+Int mod skills, and full BAB, and that alone makes people go "ooo, he's not crappy now!" It doesn't make them much more powerful, and avoids any potential balance issues, like changing flurry to a standard action or anything (which seems like it might be a bit powerful sometimes *shrug*).

-argus

[Eldariel]

Flurry as standard with Monk-weapons is fair and specific. Flurry as standard with any weapons is too good, making Monk an epic dip. My list of fixes:
-Can use Dex for special maneuvers (Grapple et al.)
-Can get full Str to offhand (makes Str-based Monks more efficieny)
-6+Int Skills
-Flurry as Standard, and in lieu of Spring Attack
-Full BAB could be added, although it's not necessary (Trip, for example, doesn't use BAB)


I feel d8 works; d10 would give Monk Fighter HD. I feel Monks should be weaker than Fighters of equal Con as long as their other abilities like mobility and skills make up for it.

Oh, and print Intuitive Attack as a non-Exalted feats to make Wis-based Monks actually doable. Heck, print a feat to use Wis for melee combat maneuvers. And "Improved Weapon Finesse" for Dex to damage (over Shadow Blade; having to pick Shadow Hand-stance makes a straight Monk almost undoable this way).

Oh yeah, and make the 20th level ability do something useful, like DR 10/- or something. It does absolutely nothing, except makes you Banishable as written. Oh yeah, and:
-Wholeness of Body heals 1+Wis times the Monk-level instead of twice the Monk-level.
-Give Monk Reactive Resistance for free (the ability to lower Spell Resistance to acquire buffs et al.)
-Quivering Palm once/DAY + once for every 5 levels or something.
-Abundant Step 1 additional time per day for each 2 Monk-levels you take beyond 12.
-Ki Strike to treat Fists as any metal, not just Adamantine (an oversight, I'd wager).


EDIT: As you can see, pretty much all Monks abilities are broken in terms of just not doing what they're intended, as you can well see from the list. Making all of them work goes a long way to making a Monk work. Add to that the ability to focus on different stats for melee, and the ability to combine Flurry and his speed, and enough skillpoints to not require Int and you suddenly have a completely different animal. I'd gladly play the Monk listed above and probably be able to match a relatively optimized Fighter.

[elliott20]

fastest way? play a swordsage and call it a monk.

But seriously, (since you said it's core only) I think improving the monk would require you to know exactly what kind of martial arts character do you want? Because depending upon how answer that question, your monk could end up with different house rules. Is it a specific kind of martial arts character (which means you modify some numbers, take off a couple abilities and add a couple more and call it a day) or do you want versatile martial art styles? (which means you potentially would have to do a class overhaul for different power progressions)

[monty]

It only makes a great choice Druids and Clerics stronger. More Druid since everyone has an unarmed strikes even animal forms.

I would have to disagree that adding anything to a druid other than a druid PrC makes it stronger.

Anyway, it'd be hard to make a monk overpowered. Give it full BAB, d10 HD, and more skill points, and the full casters will still be better than it, at least by 10th level.

[Frosty]

Anyway, it'd be hard to make a monk overpowered. Give it full BAB, d10 HD, and more skill points

But if we do that, the Fighter and Rogue will complain about how now they're obsolete.

[Eldariel]

Fhew, a well built Fighter can outfight the Monk I outlined (thanks to the feats), so the Monk needs to make up for that with skills. Fighter could use a fix too, but this Monk and this Fighter with splatbooks would be fairly even. And both would still make for dumb good splashes, which would prolly be a good idea to fix by spreading the opening feats a bit further apart.

As for Rogue, having UMD as a class skill along with Trapfinding (and thus a role to fill), he's actually useful. Don't put him in the same boat as the guys who can just fight in the frontline and even suck at that.


*For record, here's the complete list of changes I suggest for Core Monk as a bandaid fix:

Base Changes
-6+Int Skills
-Maybe some added class skills (Search, Heal, Use Rope?)
-Full BAB

New Abilities
-Can use Dex for special maneuvers (Grapple et al.) around level 6 or so.
-Can get full Str to offhand (makes Str-based Monks more efficient) around level 10 or so.
-Pounce (around level 12-15; after Greater Flurry)

Changes to Abilities
-Flurry as Standard, and in lieu of Spring Attack
-Wholeness of Body heals 1+Wis times the Monk-level instead of twice the Monk-level.
-Give Monk Reactive Resistance for free (the ability to lower Spell Resistance as a standard action; to get buffs et al.) along with Diamond Body on 13
-Quivering Palm once/DAY + once for every 5 levels or something.
-Abundant Step 1 additional time per day for each 2 Monk-levels you take beyond 12.
-Ki Strike to treat Fists as any metal, not just Adamantine (an oversight, I'd wager) when you'd gain Ki Strike (Adamantine), probably give the whole ability on level 12-15.
-Perfect Self grants DR 10/- or something else useful.

New Feats
-Wise Strike (use Wis for attacks with Simple- and Monk Weapons, requires +1 BAB - non-Exalted Intuitive Attack)
-Improved Weapon Finesse (use Dex for damage, requires Weapon Finesse and BAB +1)


There, perfectly playable Monk.

[monty]

But if we do that, the Fighter and Rogue will complain about how now they're obsolete.

Fighters are already weak, but they'd still have bonus feats. Rogues could still have more skill points (8>6, and you don't see rogues complaining about bards and rangers), potentially skill mastery, and sneak attack, so they would still be better at their intended areas.

[Frosty]

Well sure the Rogue has a role to play, but I guess they should complain about the Beguiler instead of any other class eg?

[tyckspoon]

But if we do that, the Fighter and Rogue will complain about how now they're obsolete.

The Fighter was already made obsolete by the Barbarian, Paladin, and Ranger, at least as a base class; it's good as a two-four level template or prestige class. The Rogue would be fine; he's still got a higher skillpoint base drawn from a better list, so his skillmonkey role is secure (in other words, if giving the Ranger 6+ base skillpoints didn't obsolete the Rogue, neither will giving the Monk 6+ skillpoints.) And his combat abilities would still be decent without being extreme for a class that isn't actually intended to be trading blows with things the way the Monk seems to be.

Although you could help out everybody and not just the Monk with a few changes to the skill system- collapse Hide/Move Silent, Climb/Jump/Tumble, and Spot/Listen into just three skills, and now the Monk's 4+ base points work just fine. The reason he wants 6+ is because 3.5's skill system charges him double or triple just to achieve basic monkish-archetype things like being perceptive, mobile, and stealthy.

[monty]

Well sure the Rogue has a role to play, but I guess they should complain about the Beguiler instead of any other class eg?

Naturally, but I was just talking about core, since that's what the campaign is. My point was that another semi-skillmonkey won't make the rogue useless.

[Eldariel]

Actually, I just realized how to solve two problems at once; the lack of a reason to not multiclass out around 6 and the bad capstone. Here:

Give Diamond Soul on 1-6. Early enough to matter and gives you incentive to not multiclass; a powerful ability that rewards you for taking Monk-levels. Also, it gives you a logical, potent capstone:
-Magic Immunity

Have Perfect Self give you Magic Immunity (maybe in addition to DR 10/- or something). That's potent, and since you have Reactive Resistance, you can still get buffed. And since it's on level 20, it really gives you incentive to take Monk-levels all the way and isn't out of synch with level 20 power level.


Also, while we're at fixing the class, the combat style feats could be gained at 2, 5 and 10 instead of 1, 2 and 6. Less dippable, more takeable.

[DeathQuaker]

Thanks very much, everyone. I don't have time to respond to everyone individually, but I've read the suggestions.

Full BAB definitely seems the way to go (forgot they didn't have that anyway... geez).

I'm probably going to smash together some skills (as mentioned by tyckspoon so that was the plan before) so I may not need to boost skill points, though I might still do so (doubt if there is a rogue player in the party he will feel marginalized--especially since Rogues have enough unique abilities and a broader range of class skills that they've still got a lot of things they can do).

I like Eldariel's idea of changing when the combat style feats take place, though maybe I might add another feat in there somewhere. I'll have to look more closely at the idea of shifting Diamond Soul earlier in the class progression.

Thanks!

[ericgrau]

Just please don't make the monk into another class. The class revolves around special tactics and target selection. He's all about non-magical battlefield control. He can already do these as well or better than anyone. His monk weapons, extra attacks and other factors provide bonuses that make up for his mid-BAB, and his speed (and skills that may be used as part of movement) is unmatched. He is weak at dealing damage and taking it in return.

Boost what you will, but please don't make him another fighter/barbarian/paladin. He isn't meant to be good at that, and going alone against a melee fighter/barbarian/paladin/monster-warrior he should be weaker. He should be able to zip through the front line and pick off strategic targets and/or make targets easier for his party to take down. Specifically, I don't like full BAB. Again, he already has boosts/advantages to special attacks (and not damage-dealing attacks) that make up for his mid-BAB there.

Eladriel was closest to boosting him without making him something else, I think, and what tyckspoon said about skills may work too.

The Fighter was already made obsolete by the Barbarian, Paladin, and Ranger

(tangent on the fighter, barbarian, paladin, ranger, monk and the amazing level of balance that actually exists)

Spoiler

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Nope. I've run too many pages of computer programming and calculations and found that the fighter outdoes them all with 4 encounters per day and no prep round, plus his feats can add special tactics.

The barbarian is better when raging at earlier levels, but only gets 1-2 per day. Plus he has other special abilities.

The paladin is stronger only when he gets a free buff round (before combat not during, unless the combat is long), and weaker otherwise. Savings smite-uses also helps boost him higher temporarily. Plus he has other special abilities and non-buff spells. He also needs multiple good stats to avoid lowering his str & con.

Combat-wise, a fighter who simply picks the right feats can mimic or beat a ranger in nearly every single way, but the ranger has skills, spells and other special abilities.

The monk is much worse than all of them in damage-dealing combat, but he is just as strong at special attacks (thanks to various bonuses). A fighter with the right feat selection can match him there but, unlike the monk, he can't select his targets as easily. Plus that often means the monk may be attacking a lower AC. Interestingly enough, my simulations showed that once the monk gets his SR he has the best chance against a caster even when relying on his mediocre direct-damage. Though, given the competition's effectiveness against casters, that might not be saying much.

[Greg]

I had an idea for flurry which, to me, seems more balanced than making it a standard action. Instead of modifying the flurry part, modify the bonus movement so that it is additional movement which may be taken as a free action. This would allow a monk with 3+ levels to move 10+ft and use flurry (preventing 1-level dips).

The other problem with monks is their MAD. They NEED a decent score in all attributes other than CHA. I would suggest adding WIS to attack rolls to mitigate this somewhat (but keep their BAB as it is). 6+INT skills would also help here. CON is still important, as is DEX (to an extent, as a lot of movement skills are linked to DEX). WIS would become more important. However, it removes STR as a necessity, and curbs the need for INT for skills.

[ericgrau]

I'd be interested to see if a standard-action flurry idea pans out. It seems like one is being formed here. I'm still waiting on further discussion, as I'm not sure what to think of it.

IMO monks don't really suffer from MAD. They really need str, str and str so they can land their special attacks. And con, but that's important for every class. Dex is more or less the same for them as it is for, say, a ranger or rogue or wizard, and wis does less than dex. Heck, they can't even make much use of ranged weapons. Int likewise is nice to have for more skills, but you can cover the basics with 4-5 skills.

[Siosilvar]

I'd be interested to see if a standard-action flurry idea pans out. It seems like one is being formed here. I'm still waiting on further discussion, as I'm not sure what to think of it.

IMO monks don't really suffer from MAD. They really need str, str and str so they can land their special attacks. And con, but that's important for every class. Dex is more or less the same for them as it is for, say, a ranger or rogue or wizard, and wis does less than dex. Heck, they can't even make much use of ranged weapons. Int likewise is nice to have for more skills, but you can cover the basics with 4-5 skills.

Dex for rogues is basically their primary stat. It affects their armor class, attack rolls (ranged/weapon finesse), hide and move silently, and so on.

[ericgrau]

Yeah, I meant for AC. That's why I stuck rangers and wizards on the list, to help clarify.

[dman11235]

Go into my Handy Haversack and click on the link for the Martial Artist. Fixed monk. Just make sure to take the suggestions I made in the last post. Or, alternatively, go here to these boards and check out my monk handbook in the handbook forum (Min/Max:Handbooks:Monk Handbook). That lets you play an un-altered monk efficiently.

For a simple fix (hey, even with my handbook) full BAB, flurry as a standard action, and d10 HD are popular "fixes" that treat only some symptoms. Most of the problems with the class are actually the armor class issue (and defense in general), and the utter lack of good design, which are things not easily fixed without drastically changing the class. As a result, the class remains 6 levels long.

[thegurullamen]

I recommend checking out the Monk from the Pathfinder RPG, (which is essentially D&D 3.5 with some major tweaks. It's in Alpha at the moment and free to everyone in .pdf form.)

Check it out at http://www.paizo.com under the "Pathfinder" heading.

[DeathQuaker]

Thanks, Dman---that's a handy list in general and it looks like a good class build.

thegurullamen--I'll also look at that. A couple of my players are interested in Pathfinder, so I'll hear their thoughts on that as well.

Thanks again all to those I have not directly responded to. Everything's been helpful in this thread.

[ericgrau]

There are other threads on Pathfinder already, so it'd be better to dig those up and I'll be brief. IMO it's horrible: They seem to have no head for numbers (the total lack of in-house playtesting shows), and it seems more like an over-complicated set of house-rules than a seperate or even upgraded gaming system. So even if it was done more carefully it's far from an overhaul. It seems to have gained most of its popularity as an alternative to 4e with thread titles like "for those who want to keep playing 3.5e...". I really didn't hear much/anything about it before 4e.

[elliott20]

I still think it helps to know what the OP wanted to get from the monk class to begin with. Right now, people are talking about improving the monk and what they should or should not do to improve the monk but fact of the matter is, no matter what they do, it's going to be limited in it's own way. The bigger question is what do you see monk's doing well? Not in the sense of monks that were already defined by the 3.5E class, but the actual name monks. What does the name denote? what is it you're trying to achieve?

[holywhippet]

To be honest I don't think monks are weak when considered as a whole, it's just that some of their benefits don't get called upon as often as some of the benefits of other classes. High saving throws, evasion and a bunch of resistances and immunities as they gain levels make them quite hard to kill.

The low AC and lower hit dice are the main weaknesses of the monk - it makes it hard for them to be an effective in melee or ranged combat as they tend to get hit more often. There are a variety of ways to fix this - a magical item that casts mage armour or shield once or twice a day. You could also improve the AC bonus they get from DEX and/or WIS.

The slower BAB progression isn't a problem if you think about it. The monk gets flurry of blows and later on greater flurry of blows. Having less of an attack bonus is negated by being able to take an extra swing or two at the enemy.

[its_all_ogre]

my fix was simple for my campaign:
full bab as a given.
i made two weapon fighting and flurry available as a standard action, both are generally weak so this does not massively power up these options.
i also made monks able to use their wisdom in place of strength for combat purposes. so wis modifier to hit rolls, damage rolls and grapple rolls. also it can be used for trips/disarms or anything related.
why?
because wisdom represents, to me, applied knowledge...the monk punches hurt lots because they target nerve endings, vulcan neck pinches etc etc

leave hps and skill points where they are and they do just fine.
also means tey can look perfectly non-descript and yet be a kick ass in a fight!

[dman11235]

Those defenses you speak of don't matter. They have saves of 6 higher than someone else straight classes...woohoo? Immune to poison and disease...who uses them? Evasion is nice, but not great, and you can get it in a ring, but really, AoE damage isn't a good way to generally kill things. Diamond Soul...spell resistance is both a boon and an even bigger bane. Since you can't reliably get buffs from your party or healing in order to have a good chance to prevent enemy spells from affecting you, or not have a good chance of enemy spells affecting you, this is a bad ability to have. And slow fall if replaced by a 1st level spell or a 2,000 gp ring, assuming you don't have flight (which you will).

And the BAB issue...it's a melee class....without full BAB...and grapple relies on BAB...as do many other things... What flurry is doing then is not adding attacks...it's giving you one extra attack at level 20 at a -5 to hit for all attacks, and a +5 for one. That last one won't hit, and the second to last probably won't, and the first three are at a decent chance to hit. Instead of a full BAB class with two that will hit and one that probably won't and one that won't.

I go in depth into these issues and how to minimize/eliminate the problems with the class in my handbook.

[Cainen]

Power Attacking unarmed counts as Power Attacking with a two-handed weapon - so it stings. Big time.

Full BAB progression, and abilities that scale more.

Flurry of Blows can be used as a standard action, so they're superior skirmishers - give them the ability to avoid AoOs, too.