Why is Polymorph Busted?

[Deth Muncher]

I'm sorry. I was reading it, and to be perfectly honest, it doesn't seem like something too terribly busted.

Now, I'm sure if you're a Kobold Cleric with a snake familiar...

But seriously folks, WHY is it heralded as such a broken spell?

[Vexxation]

Well, you could manage to polymorph the main plot villain into a butterfly, then smash it.

Or polymorph the caster into another monster, perhaps a Solar or something or tremendous power that oughtn't be in the PCs power to turn into.

[ColonelFuster]

I also do not understand this... I just restrict what people run into, so that their characters can't know about it. done.

[Spiryt]

You can polymorph into a Dragon as long as HD and your levels are equal.

Just think about it. 13th level mage can get all abilities of Juvenile Black dragon, starting with 12 sided hi dice, all saves good... An still can cast spells.

And it's probably weak example in fact, as I'm not good at it.

[Starbuck_II]

I'm sorry. I was reading it, and to be perfectly honest, it doesn't seem like something too terribly busted.

Now, I'm sure if you're a Kobold Cleric with a snake familiar...

But seriously folks, WHY is it heralded as such a broken spell?

Polymorph or its big brother ShapeChange?

Polymorph:
Melee warrior (Treant or Hydra, yes every head as an attack because they are natural weapon routine)
Save or lose (Cloaker: can you say Hold Person at will? Yes, it is extraordinary attack so you get it)
Flying (Really variety here)

The list goes on.

Shapechange:
Balor: free Vorpal weapons to sell every X hours. (yes you can make them as they are supernatural ability)
Solar (baby, they rock)
Gargantuan Red Dragon (now that rocks)
Zolar or Efferti: Free Wishes for no exp cost... how was that balanced?

[Spiryt]

Will o' wips.

Great AC, perfect fly, improved initiative....

Probably more, but I'm not sure how decription should be understood.

Does he gain skills? (Great Will o' wisp spot, for example)

[Starbuck_II]

Will o' wips.

Great AC, perfect fly, improved initiative....

Probably more, but I'm not sure how decription should be understood.

Does he gain skills? (Great Will o' wisp spot, for example)

You only gain Racial skill bonuses. Like a fishes swim speed adds bonus to swim.

[Chronicled]

Pixies. Flight, sleep arrows (which affect any HD) at will, greater invisibility as a free action at will, memory arrows--that make the target forget everything, at will.

The revised polymorph spells are fine though (Trollshape, Displacer Form, etc). The originals are just too flexible and powerful. Heck, Alter Self, non-abused, gives you flight sooner and longer than Fly.

[Worira]

Will o' wips.

Great AC, perfect fly, improved initiative....

Probably more, but I'm not sure how decription should be understood.

Does he gain skills? (Great Will o' wisp spot, for example)

Don't forget invisibility and immunity to magic.

EDIT: and you don't get improved initiative, you get weapon finesse. Also, a touch attack.

But yeah, picture a party with a treant barbarian, a will-o'-wisp rogue, a choker wizard, and a cleric... something.

[Starbuck_II]

Don't forget invisibility and immunity to magic.

Immunity I'm sure was supernatural trait. Shapechange gives those.
Polymorph is limited to Extraodinary (attack ones).

[Spiryt]

Immunity I'm sure was supernatural trait. Shapechange gives those.
Polymorph is limited to Extraodinary (attack ones).

Exactly. Same with Pixies Greater Invisibility at will. Fortunately, Polymorph isn't that broken.

[Oslecamo]

Pixies. Flight, sleep arrows (which affect any HD) at will, greater invisibility as a free action at will, memory arrows--that make the target forget everything, at will.

Yeah, those CR 17 monsters are really gonna be scared of DC 12+charisma fortitude or will saves, not to mention that everybody and their mother has see invisibility or true seeing at such high levels.

Not to mention the pixie doesn't provide you with a bow, so good luck hiting the monster in the first place using an immprovised weapon.

Anyway, the biggest flaw of polymorph would be it's horrible wording, wich many players bend to their liking. Should you interpret it in a diferent way, it's not that broken.

My favorite interpretation is that familiar form=every being in the multiverse and beyond.

Of course your character got acess to the finest libraries of all times, and thus knows every little detail of every monster in existence.

[Leewei]

The above examples are all pretty good illustrations of how polymorph is broken. Monsters are built to provide challenge in encounters -- PCs with access to monstrous abilities can often trivialize encounters.

[Worira]

Immunity to Magic (Ex)

A will-o’-wisp is immune to most spells or spell-like abilities that allow spell resistance, except magic missile and maze.

Emphasis mine.

[Starbuck_II]

Emphasis mine.

That isn't an attack: that seems more a quality.
Attacks you have to activate. Qualities are innate.

[Oslecamo]

Emphasis mine.

Congratulations, all your buffs will fall, none of your equipment works, and the polymorph effect will probably end since you're immune to it, so you go back to your former self and wasted a spell.

[Worira]

Yeah, those CR 17 monsters are really gonna be scared of DC 12+charisma fortitude or will saves, not to mention that everybody and their mother has see invisibility or true seeing at such high levels.

No, but CR 7 monsters are, and that's the level you get polymorph.

[Dr.Gunsforhands]

Um, are you guys all talking about polymorph? Because I don't think that gives you any of the magic abilities. And though it technically changes your creature type, it doesn't do anything to your HD or base attack either.

Now, even as intended, you could use it to turn into a giant or a Dire Bat something, taking advantage of high strength, constitution, natural armor and size. In a sense, it's a more versatile version of Tenser's Transformation. Polymorph pretty much sets the high standard for its spell level.

The will-o'-wisp thing is also clever.

[Spiryt]

Yeah, those CR 17 monsters are really gonna be scared of DC 12+charisma fortitude or will saves, not to mention that everybody and their mother has see invisibility or true seeing at such high levels.

Against 17 CR monster I give you spelcasting young adult White Dragon.

[Deth Muncher]

Congratulations, all your buffs will fall, none of your equipment works, and the polymorph effect will probably end since you're immune to it, so you go back to your former self and wasted a spell.

Yeah, I wondered what would happen if you go and 'morph into something which is immune to magic. Or even something immune to Polymorph in the first place!

And wait, if you turn into something with Regeneration, do you get regeneration? Or any other ability like that? Or is that on that list of things you dont get?

[Spiryt]

Yeah, I wondered what would happen if you go and 'morph into something which is immune to magic. Or even something immune to Polymorph in the first place!

And wait, if you turn into something with Regeneration, do you get regeneration? Or any other ability like that? Or is that on that list of things you dont get?

That reminds me of another idioticaly broken quality of polymorph.

Upon changing, the subject regains lost hit points as if it had rested for a night (though this healing does not restore temporary ability damage and provide other benefits of resting; and changing back does not heal the subject further).

So if you are close to death, just polymorph into some other interesting form.

And. Regain. All. Hit. Points.

[Leewei]

Not to mention the pixie doesn't provide you with a bow, so good luck hiting the monster in the first place using an immprovised weapon.

A PC planning to use this tactic would reasonably have the bow available.

Anyway, the biggest flaw of polymorph would be it's horrible wording, wich many players bend to their liking. Should you interpret it in a diferent way, it's not that broken.

Hello, Oberoni fallacy.

Of course your character got acess to the finest libraries of all times, and thus knows every little detail of every monster in existence.

Alternately, high Knowledge(arcane|planar|dungeoneering|nature|whate ver) skill to be aware of such things by RAW.

[Oslecamo]

No, but CR 7 monsters are, and that's the level you get polymorph.

Polymoprh doesn't give out supernatural abilities!

Against 17 CR monster I give you spelcasting young adult White Dragon

But since you're casting as a spellcaster, you need a full night's rest to recover your spells. Good luck making shapechange last that much.

[Worira]

If by "all", you mean "1 per character level", then yes.


And yeah, missed the separation of Ex attacks and Ex abilities.

EDIT: and pixie special arrows are Ex. Please don't accuse me of not reading the rules when you haven't read the monster entry in question.

[Jade_Tarem]

I do believe Mr. Burlew has gone over this, in the gaming section of the site (not the gaming section of the boards). He has a comprehensive list of everything that's wrong with polymorph.

[Spiryt]

Nice try. But since you're casting as a spellcaster, you need a full night's rest to recover your spells. Good luck making shapechance last that much.

Why should I loose them in the first place ?

[Oslecamo]

Hello, Oberoni fallacy.

You don't even know what the Oberoni fallacy is.

Oberoni Fallacy (noun): The fallacy that the existence of a rule stating that, ‘the rules can be changed,’ can be used to excuse design flaws in the actual rules. Etymology, D&D message boards, a fallacy first formalized by member Oberoni.

It can only be applied if I change the rules.

And I'm not chancing any rules. I'm just changing the interpretation.

Why should your interpretation be more valid than mine?

[Deth Muncher]

That reminds me of another idioticaly broken quality of polymorph.



So if you are close to death, just polymorph into some other interesting form.

And. Regain. All. Hit. Points.

Not to mention with that, if you get killed, don't you just...revert to your original form, just dandy? Or are you actually dead when you revert?

[Jade_Tarem]

Not to mention with that, if you get killed, don't you just...revert to your original form, just dandy? Or are you actually dead when you revert?

Oh, you're quite dead if you get killed in the middle of a polymorph, but really, if you're doing it right you shouldn't die in the first place.

[Kyeudo]

Nice try. But since you're casting as a spellcaster, you need a full night's rest to recover your spells. Good luck making shapechance last that much.

I believe he was talking about his Wizard spells, not the dragons spell slots, since he still has hands and can speak.

Now, to get the sorcerer casting, all it takes is a rod of persist spell and some planning.