Vow of Poverty Unarmed Swordsage

[wadledo]

Alright.
I've searched the internet top to bottom, and I believe I've gone either completly mad or no-body has any advice on the matter.

On another forum, I've gotten permision to create an Human Unarmed Vow of Poverty Swordsage at level 1, and I need help with:
Feats (does Vow of Poverty actualy grant an extra exalted feat at 1st?),
Stat placement (18, 15, 14, 12, 12, 12),
Maneuvers,
The Future (I'd like to go into Master of Nine),
Flaws and traits (one of each),
Almost everything else.

Setting is generic D&Dish, and I've already got some kind of backstory planned.

Any help so I can kill this annoying migrain of a character?

[Demons_eye]

The superior unarmed strike feat is a must if the dm lets your unarmed damge stack with monk. Feat gain more unamred damge and 4 levels worth for monk.

Also maybe the feat from BoED that lets you replace str with wisdom for attack and maybe the feat shadow blade then you only have to work on wisdom and dex. both witch give you AC and damge.

[Vortling]

Couple of questions. What books are you allowed? Do you want to be str, dex, or wis based? Lastly, what's the theme of your character? Does it work better as a smash and bash character, a sneaky finesse character, or more of a mystic unarmed warrior?

[wadledo]

Couple of questions. What books are you allowed? Do you want to be str, dex, or wis based? Lastly, what's the theme of your character? Does it work better as a smash and bash character, a sneaky finesse character, or more of a mystic unarmed warrior?

Directly from the DM's keyboard:

Core, Players Handbook 2, Dungeon Master's Guide 2, Monster Manual 1-4, Fiend Folio, All completes, All Races of, Sandstorm, Frostburn, Cityscape, Dungeonscape, Savage Species (monster classes), Expanded Psionics Handbook, Complete Psionics, Heroes of Battle, heroes of Horror, Libris Mortis, Book of Exalted Deed, Boot of Vile Darkness, Stormwrack, Magic Item Compendium, Lords of Madness, Dragon Magic, Magic of Incarnum, Tome of Battle, Tome of Magic, Spell Compendium, Draconomicon, Dragon Magic, Fiendish Codex I & II, Miniatures Handbook, Planar Handbook.
So, pretty much any 3.5 besides campaign specific. For FR or Eberron Races ask first, and you may also use this srd, but for UA stuff- Flaws, Traits, Bloodlines, Variant Races/Classes only. If it's not on the list ask.

I was planning Dex, Str, Wis, other three(boosting Con then Cha when the time comes).

The basic backstory is that he's just some guy who decided to that life wasn't worth making any worse than it already is.
Kinda depressing, hoboish character.
Mildly resents the gods giving him the Vow of Poverty abilites.
So sneaky would be the best description, yea.

Demons_eye: Both of those feats require BAB that I do not have at the moment.

[Demons_eye]

what level are you starting at?

also shadow blade dosent have BAB requirements

[wadledo]

Fourth line down in the first post(third line of text), right after Human Unarmed Vow of Poverty Swordsage
Also, since I have decent Str and am using ToB, damage isn't realy a huge concern.

[Demons_eye]

hmm ya then you cant take the feat untill the 6th level

[expirement10K14]

As a human you gain Vow of Poverty at level one, so yes, you do get a bonus exalted feat. Most of them, IMHO, are trash, so that part doesn't matter. Vow of Purity and Vow of Abstinence have okay abilities, if you have a charisma over and take a flaw take Weapon focus (unarmed strike) and Sanctify Martial Strike (unarmed strike) as your exalted feat for 1 extra damage against evil creatures and d42 extra damage against evil outsiders and undead. It might be useful.

For stances-
If one of your allies is a rogue then Island of blades is a necessity, although the concealment from child of shadow is good also.

I'm no good with maneuvers, but I love desert wind for its offensive maneuvers.

[Vortling]

I would suggest you put your stats in either str, wis, con, everything else or dex, wis, con, everything else. You've only got d8 hd as a swordsage so the extra point from con helps out. Generally, I think you'll want the dex based to work well with your sneaky background. Pick up weapon finesse asap (probably level 3 unless your DM allows you to get it at 1). You can pick up shadow blade at any level as long as you grab a shadow hand stance. If there's other meleers in the group look at island of blades.

Starting maneuvers(not stances) I'd recommend: All the shadow hand maneuvers. All the diamond mind maneuvers, don't forget to max your concentration score. Look at counter charge from setting sun and stone bones for maneuvers you can switch out at 4th level.

[Douglas]

I'd say wisdom should get your highest, then dex, and put the 14 in con. You'll have to suffer through level 1, but this is much better than a strength focus from level 2 on.

For your bonus exalted feat take Touch of Golden Ice (requires con 13, otherwise you might want the 14 in strength). At level 2, take Intuitive Attack. If flaws are allowed, take Shadow Blade and Adaptive Style at level 1, otherwise take them at levels 3 and 6. Superior Unarmed Strike is another good option, but won't be available until 6.

Once you hit level 2, your high wisdom will apply to attack rolls, AC, and maneuver save DCs, leaving only damage for strength. Once you get to level 4, wisdom will even give you that, too (for one discipline of maneuvers, anyway).

If you really want Master of Nine, try to talk your DM into allowing flaws or a little extra flexibility in the bonus feats from Vow of Poverty. The feat requirements are unreasonably high otherwise, especially with two feats spent on Vows.

[Emperor Tippy]

Do you have to have your stats like that? Your better off switching the 18 to Dex and taking the feats to get Dex to hit (weapon finesse) and Dex to damage (shadow blade). Then put the 15 in Wisdom and the 14 in Con. If its point buy then I would reduce at least 1 of those 12's to a 10.

Take Shaky as your flaw (you don't have any ranged attacks in the first place so its no loss).

Grab Shadow blade as your feat. The unarmed variant already gives you Improved Unarmed Strike.

Take Child of Shadow as your stance.

For Discipline focus choose Shadow Hand.

--
At level 2 grab Intuitive Attack as your bonus exalted feat, see if you can convince your DM to let you take Weapon Finesse instead though.
--
At level 3 take Adaptive Style.
---
At level 4 take Nymphs Kiss.

------
Why are you taking Vow of Poverty anyways? And do you really need to take it at level 1. Because if not then take Adaptive Style and Weapon Finesse at level 1 instead of Sacred Vow and VoP. Then at level 3 take SV and at level 6 take VoP. All you loose out on are the exalted bonus feats, and frankly most of them are worthless. Nymphs Kiss and Touch of Golden Ice are the only ones that are really worth it. Then you get into Nimbus of Light and it's chain.


If it was me and I was going to take VoP that's what I would do. I would also see what the DM's opinion on the Chaos Shuffle is, because you can turn those bonus exalted feats into things that are actually good if your DM is ok with it and your group is willing to pick up the tab.

[sikyon]

For everyone who says "most exalted feats are a waste" that's true, but a few of them are good and typically the ones that matter are the immediate ones. Very few people I know/have heard of have played more than 10 levels. Since he's starting at level 1 and playing his way up from there, it's a good call to take it immediatly. If he were making a level 10 character and wanted to take it from level 1, I would advise against it.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

18 in wis, 15 in dex, 14 con, 12 int/cha/str. Pick Shadow Blade(with the flaw) at first, grab intuitive attack as your exalted feat. Second Level pick up Nymph's Kiss, and 4th take Touch of Golden Ice. Boost your 15 to 16 at 4th, put the boosts into wis/dex/con in that order, and use all of your other feats meeting the Master of 9 prereqs(it takes 5). Also snag Snap Kick, Improved Natural Attack, Superior Unarmed Strike, and Adaptive Style, if possible. 2 flaws are needed. Put your Discipline Focuses in Shadow Hand first. Try to talk your DM into letting you get real feats instead of exalted(maybe at half progression).
You get Wis to-hit, Wis and Dex to damage in a Shadow Hand stance, Wis and Dex to AC, a bonus attack on every strike, 9 skill points(with a fairly good list), Dex poison on each hit, Wep focus with your unarmed strikes, and +2 to saves when in a Shadow Hand stance.
Take mostly Shadow Hand stances, and stick primarily to Diamond Mind and Shadow Hand maneuvers(imho, I'm not great at maneuver choice). Avoid Desert Wind, and try to get a good mix of strikes and boosts.

[Emperor Tippy]

I'd say wisdom should get your highest, then dex, and put the 14 in con. You'll have to suffer through level 1, but this is much better than a strength focus from level 2 on.

Nah, all wisdom does is up his AC. Which, while nice, isn't that uber. Dex can be made to apply to AC, Attack, and Damage.

Once you hit level 2, your high wisdom will apply to attack rolls, AC, and maneuver save DCs, leaving only damage for strength. Once you get to level 4, wisdom will even give you that, too (for one discipline of maneuvers, anyway).

Insightful Strike stacks with Shadow Blade. You can get Dex and Wis to damage. Which means that at level 4 you can get Str, Dex, and Wis to damage. So with 18 Dex, 16 Wis, and 12 Str you are getting 8 bonus damage. That is 1d8+8 (average of 12.5) before any maneuvers. Thats comparable to what an 18 Strength fighter would be doing before power attack.

[dyslexicfaser]

Alternatively, instead of Dex you could go with Wis and get Intuitive Attack and that other one whose name I forget to get Atk and Dmg from Wis instead of Str. Intuitive Attack is even one of your exalted feats, which is good, since your regular feats will be mostly tied up in Master of 9 req's.

One of the weaknesses of VoP is lack of flight, so Tiger Claw with its jumping about might be beneficial to you. Personally, if it's going to be unarmed swordsage, for me it has to be Setting Sun and Shadow Hand maneuvers.

For exalted feats, consider these: http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Category:Exalted_Feat

I don't know if they're homebrewed or what, since I'd never seen them before in any splatbook, but they're pretty decent. For BoED's feats, you're usually better off taking Nymph's Kiss quickly, so you can get the benefits of that extra skill point per level. Touch of Golden Ice is also excellent at low levels, though since it doesn't improve by level 10 or so it's very nearly worthless unless they roll a 1.

[Emperor Tippy]

At level 20 you would be doing 2d10+18 damage on a vanilla attack (assuming you prioritized VoP's bonuses Dex/Wis/Con/Str and put all level up points in Wis).

[Chronos]

If you're aiming for Master of Nine, you're going to have to spend almost all of your non-exalted feats on prerequisites. Of those, I would recommend Adaptive Style first, then Improved Initiative, something that replaces Dodge, and Blindfight. Once you've got those out of the way, then take Shadow Blade. It'd be a stretch to get Weapon Finesse, too, but fortunately you don't need it.

Keep in mind that without multiclassing, you won't be able to qualify for Master of Nine until 12th level. You might want to toss in a couple of levels of Fighter or Psychic Warrior, to make it easier to pick up some of those feats. Psychic Warrior is probably better, since you'll want a high Wis anyway, and it also opens up the possibility of Psionic Focus. Alternately, you might decide to pass on Mo9, and just pick whatever feats you think will be useful.

For your exalted feats, my first choices would be Touch of Golden Ice, Intuitive Attack (the reason why you don't need Weapon Finesse), Sanctify Natural Attack, and (if you qualify for it) Nymph's Kiss. After that, I'm not sure.

[Emperor Tippy]

Alternatively, instead of Dex you could go with Wis and get Intuitive Attack and that other one whose name I forget to get Atk and Dmg from Wis instead of Str. Intuitive Attack is even one of your exalted feats, which is good, since your regular feats will be mostly tied up in Master of 9 req's.

Wis to damage comes from the Insightful Strike class feature, not a feat. The reason to put the 18 in Dex is that it pays off faster at lower levels. At level 20 you can end up with 26 Dex and 26 Wisdom before any Wish's. Thats +16 Damage, +8 Attack, and +16 AC. You can do the same thing in reverse and get the same result but you loose out on damage for levels 1, 2, and 3. You can also prioritize Wisdom or Dex so that it ends up being 30/22. The final effect is the exact same and I would probably even recommend it if you were starting at high levels (higher will save is more important and you get Evasion and Improved Evasion from Swordsage at high levels).

[Emperor Tippy]

Oh yeah, you wanted to take MoN.

Feats:
1: Sacred Vow
1 (human): Vow of Poverty
1 (Flaw): Adaptive Style
2 (VoP): Intuitive Attack
3: Improved Initiative
4 (VoP): Nymph's Kiss
6: Blind-Fight
6 (VoP): Touch of Golden Ice
8 (VoP): Nimbus of Light
9: Dodge
10 (VoP): Stigmata (your out of reasonable exalted feats by now).
12: Shadow Blade

Take whatever from here on, it depends on what you want to do.

Keep in mind that without multiclassing, you won't be able to qualify for Master of Nine until 12th level.

Actually he can qualify at level 10. Unarmed Swordsage gets Improved Unarmed Strike as a bonus feat. Which means he can get the feats out of the way at level 9.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

VoP gives a bonus exalted feat at 1st level. FIRST! Remember that, people. So he can get intuitive attack at 1, and have +5 to-hit at first level. He can then spend every feat on MoN pre-reqs until he hits 9th(using Desert Wind dodge instead of regular), Superior Unarmed Strike at 12th, INA at 15th, Shadow Blade at 18th(or Snap Kick). It may be worth delaying the MoN prereqs till 12th to get one of the other feats early, but you want to stagger that and SS levels so that you get as many high-level maneuvers as possible.

I still stand by using Wis primary, Dex secondary. In fact, if you drop Shadow Blade, you may be better off with a higher Con than Dex.

[Chronos]

Actually he can qualify at level 10. Unarmed Swordsage gets Improved Unarmed Strike as a bonus feat. Which means he can get the feats out of the way at level 9.

Yeah, I was taking that into account. My mis-count was from not noticing that he was allowed a flaw. Still, spending every single normal feat until level 10, when you're starting at level 1, for the sake of qualifying for a prestige class (even one as nice as Mo9) is a pretty big sacrifice.

And I think the biggest argument for going Wis primary instead of Dex is that, between Mo9 prereqs and the VoP bonus feats, it's going to be a heck of a lot easier to pick up Intuitive Attack than Weapon Finesse.

[The Demented One]

*Begin shameless self-plug*

It might be worth it to see if your DM would let you use the Golden Saint discipline; it's basically for exalted martial adepts.

[Emperor Tippy]

VoP gives a bonus exalted feat at 1st level. FIRST! Remember that, people.

Hmm, so he does. That just means you run out of good exalted feats even faster.

Superior Unarmed Strike at 12th, INA at 15th, Shadow Blade at 18th(or Snap Kick). It may be worth delaying the MoN prereqs till 12th to get one of the other feats early, but you want to stagger that and SS levels so that you get as many high-level maneuvers as possible.

Superior Unarmed Strike is worthless for a monk/unarmed swordsage. At least in the end game. Monk Unarmed Strike progression stops at level 20, SUA gives monks/unarmed swordsages +4 levels for purposes of unarmed strike. It's not worth the feat.

I still stand by using Wis primary, Dex secondary. In fact, if you drop Shadow Blade, you may be better off with a higher Con than Dex.

Dropping Shadow Blade is stupid. If you actually read Shadow Blade and Insightful Strike they stack and neither replaces Strength to damage. With all 3 you get Str+Dex+Wis to damage. It's much better than Improved Natural Attack or Superior Unarmed Strike.

As for how you prioritize Dex and Wis, it doesn't really matter. They should end up first and second in pretty much any circumstance with Con third (comes out at 18 at level 20). HP is nice but you shouldn't be getting hit in the first place. Your AC should work out to 10+16(VoP)+10(wisdom)+6(dex) before maneuvers or stances. 42 AC is pretty good at level 20.

[Emperor Tippy]

Yeah, I was taking that into account. My mis-count was from not noticing that he was allowed a flaw. Still, spending every single normal feat until level 10, when you're starting at level 1, for the sake of qualifying for a prestige class (even one as nice as Mo9) is a pretty big sacrifice.

What other feats is he going to take? VoP makes a lot of them less than useful. Combat Reflexes is the only one I would really miss. I would replace Dodge with it. Blind-Fight is ok, it might not be my first choice but it isn't something I would cringe to take. The rest are things I would grab anyways (Improve Initiative and Adaptive Style).

[Sstoopidtallkid]

Superior Unarmed Strike is worthless for a monk/unarmed swordsage. At least in the end game. Monk Unarmed Strike progression stops at level 20, SUA gives monks/unarmed swordsages +4 levels for purposes of unarmed strike. It's not worth the feat.

Master of 9 doesn't advance his damage, so even with the feat his damage only reaches 19th level.

Dropping Shadow Blade is stupid. If you actually read Shadow Blade and Insightful Strike they stack and neither replaces Strength to damage. With all 3 you get Str+Dex+Wis to damage. It's much better than Improved Natural Attack or Superior Unarmed Strike.

INA boosts his size, meaning it boosts damage nearly as much as his dex does if he put it second to wisdom(+6 at level 20) and doesn't require a specific stance.

[Emperor Tippy]

Master of 9 doesn't advance his damage, so even with the feat his damage only reaches 19th level.INA boosts his size, meaning it boosts damage nearly as much as his dex does if he put it second to wisdom(+6 at level 20) and doesn't require a specific stance.

True about MoN, forgot about that.

Forgot about INA being treated as a size boost. Just stack it with Shadow Blade. It's not like there are all that many feats he wants to take, right?

And until level 20 you mostly get better average damage with Shadow blade anyways. And since you don't hit level 20 Shadow Blade is better.

Base Damage / INA Damage/ Average Damage Increase / Dex Modifier
Levels 1-3: 1d6/1d8/+1/+2 (15 Dex)
Levels 4-7: 1d8/2d6/+2.5/+3 (16 Dex)
Levels 8-11: 1d10/2d8/+3.5/+3 or +4 (at level 11 your Dex increases to 18)
Levels 12-15: 2d6/3d6/+3.5/+4 or +5 (at level 15 your Dex increases to 20)
Levels 16-19: 2d8/3d8/+4.5/+5 or +6 (at level 19 your Dex increases to 22)
Level 20: 2d10/4d8/+7/+6 (22 Dex)

So except for levels 8-10 (when you won't have INA anyways) Shadow Blade has higher average damage.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

Forgot about INA being treated as a size boost. Just stack it with Shadow Blade. It's not like there are all that many feats he wants to take, right?

And until level 20 you mostly get better average damage with Shadow blade anyways. And since you don't hit level 20 Shadow Blade is better.

Base Damage / INA Damage/ Average Damage Increase / Dex Modifier
Levels 1-3: 1d6/1d8/+1/+2 (15 Dex)
Levels 4-7: 1d8/2d6/+2.5/+3 (16 Dex)
Levels 8-11: 1d10/2d8/+3.5/+3 or +4 (at level 11 your Dex increases to 18)
Levels 12-15: 2d6/3d6/+3.5/+4 or +5 (at level 15 your Dex increases to 20)
Levels 16-19: 2d8/3d8/+4.5/+5 or +6 (at level 19 your Dex increases to 22)
Level 20: 2d10/4d8/+7/+6 (22 Dex)

So except for levels 8-10 (when you won't have INA anyways) Shadow Blade has higher average damage.

Yes, but the average differance is half a point, so it comes down to a question of utility. Is the +.5 damage good enough to ignore the fact that you are limited to only Shadow Hand stances? IMHO it isn't, but I can see how a focused-stealth character may think differently.

[Emperor Tippy]

Yes, but the average differance is <1 point, so it comes down to a question of utility. Is the +1 point of damage good enough to ignore the fact that you are limited to only Shadow Hand stances? IMHO it isn't, but I can see how a focused-stealth character may think differently.

Most of your stances will end up being Shadow Hand ones anyways.

Level 1: Child of Shadow or Island of Blades (both Shadow Hand) or Step of the Wind (Setting Sun)
Level 2: As level 1.
Level 5: Pearl of Black Doubt (Diamond) or Leaping Dragon Stance (Tiger) or Assassins Stance or Dance of the Spider (both Shadow Hand)
Level 9: Hearing the Air (Diamond) or Giants Stance (stone) or Step of the Dancing Moth (Shadow hand)
Level 11: As above
Level 13: As Above
Level 19: Balance on the Sky (Shadow Hand)

So that is a minimum of 3 Shadow Hand stances. And more likely 5. And Giants Stone has the same effect as INA so the only time you would really have a problem is when you are in your last stance.

[Douglas]

Two reasons to make wisdom higher than dexterity: Intuitive Attack is an exalted feat and can therefore be taken as a Vow of Poverty bonus feat, Weapon Finesse is not; Swordsage maneuver save DCs are almost all based on wisdom.

[Emperor Tippy]

Two reasons to make wisdom higher than dexterity: Intuitive Attack is an exalted feat and can therefore be taken as a Vow of Poverty bonus feat, Weapon Finesse is not; Swordsage maneuver save DCs are almost all based on wisdom.

True. But now we are debating INA vs. Shadow Blade.