Shadow Dancer Bad?

[Stormageddon]

My charter in the game I am currently in is a 5th level scout and level 1 ranger. I am planning on taking levels in Shadow Dancer starting at level 8. My DM's story is mostly based around undead type creatures (I took a level in ranger so I could get the Swift hunter feat so my skirmish would be useful against the undead.)

I've been reading a lot of negative things about the Shadow Dancer class on the web, but I think it would be a fun class to play. Anyone got any opinions on the Shadow Dancer class? Any advise?

[Tengu_temp]

One-level dip is good. Maybe two levels, if you want darkvision and/or doesn't have evasion from your other classes. More is usually a waste.

[arguskos]

I'd agree with Tengu here, Shadowdancer is a fun and interesting class, but it's not really good. Really, all I ever see anyone take it for ever is for Hide in Plain Sight at level 1. Beyond that, I don't see it come up much.

[Kurald Galain]

It's a fun concept, but it was also one of the earliest written prestige classes for 3rd edition, and of course the power level of those tends to go up over time. Furthermore, it took the developers a few years to refine what exactly worked in-game and what didn't (hence e.g. the PHB2 was written to solve many of the problems with the PHB classes).

So, mechanically, it's not so strong.

[Frosty]

Take all of the rest of your levels in Ranger. It'll make your skirmish stronger.

[Stormageddon]

Hmmmm so I guess the question becomes does anyone know a prestige class that would work nicely with Shadow Dancer? The charter works mainly with ranged attacks. The feats I have for him are: Point blank shot, precise shot, dodge, combat reflexes, and Swift Hunter.

Are there any rules against taking more than one prestige class?

[ericgrau]

It seems bad since you get a lot of special abilities heaped on, a ton of skill points and not much to help the more simple combat that people want.

And there isn't any abuse/tricks available for these special abilities, so if you want to pull "tricks" there's nothing really to abuse.

What's worse, HiPS is the one thing that is abused and it's done wrongly. People treat it like invisibility, when it's nothing of the sort. It only lets you hide in a shadow even while someone is watching you enter the shadow. Normally you cannot hide while being observed. Regardless, you must always have cover or concealment to hide.

All of his special abilities are handy for a stealthy, tricky character, HiPS included. Most people just want to fight out in the open, especially those in a party. Heck, HiPS is only liked b/c it's misinterpretated to work out in the open. So the class is not much use to most people. Specifically, all his skills and special abilities make him seem best as a scout/spy/recon the more levels you take (boring for most, I'm sure). You could cut him short at just about any point and mix in levels of another class to use the stealth for other things, but your damage output will be compromised.

Are there any rules against taking more than one prestige class?

LOL. Turn back now! Do not enter the dark side!

You may take as many prestige classes as you want, and take only as many levels as you want in each. There are people who take this to quite the extreme.

[arguskos]

It seems bad since you get a lot of special abilities heaped on, a ton of skill points and not much to help the more simple combat that people want.

I actually disagree with this. It's bad because those abilities are nearly useless in an average adventuring party these days. Other characters can do better than the poor Shadowdancer without really trying too hard. He has fun and interesting powers, that's for sure, but they just aren't that great. Shadow Jump? Nothing special. Dimension Door is better, and easier to get. Summon Shadows? Summon Monster is better, and not many folks use that either.

Lastly, the thing that I feel nails the Shadowdancer to the ground and coup-de-grace's him is that it doesn't advance Sneak Attack. Which doesn't make much sense. Like you said, it's a SNEAKY class. Why doesn't it advance the ability it makes so much sense for it to have?

tl;dr: Shadowdancer suffered from powercreep, and bad design. It's fun, but not good, and there are simply better options for your levels. Take it for HitP (which is a good ability, though ericgrau makes the excellent point that it's often misused) and not much else.

Also, OP, you can multiclass freely into prestige classes as long as you meet the prerequisites for that class.

-argus

[ericgrau]

Dimension door is a 4th level spell, and those who have it don't tend to be too stealthy. Likewise the shadow is good at hiding, not so much fighting. You can think of him as an unseen servant with some extras (and a nice long duration), if that helps. Uncanny dodge helps keep people from getting the drop on him if he gets caught, evasion helps against AoE attack guesses. He isn't that much of a combatant, he's recon/etc. Well, unless you only take a low number of levels (or just 1) and mix in a combat class. But, hey, I edit too much, check my last post for info on that.

[arguskos]

Yeah, I would agree that Shadowdancer is a rather adept scout. However, in a fight (much of D&D, after all), he's not really useful. Honestly, if they'd just given him Assassin-esque sneak attack progression too, I'd LOVE Shadowdancer. As it is, he's not good enough at combat to make him worth more than a few level dip. It's a shame too, cause he's an interesting class, the 3.0/3.5 design team just sorta forgot to like, you know, make him useful at more than scouting (not the most fun thing ever really).

Of course, this is coming from someone who doesn't really play rogues except as assassin-esque types, so you should probably ignore me.

-argus

[Kiara LeSabre]

What's worse, HiPS is the one thing that is abused and it's done wrongly. People treat it like invisibility, when it's nothing of the sort. It only lets you hide in a shadow even while someone is watching you enter the shadow. Normally you cannot hide while being observed. Regardless, you must always have cover or concealment to hide.

No.

Hide in Plain Sight (Su): A shadowdancer can use the Hide skill even while being observed. As long as she is within 10 feet of some sort of shadow, a shadowdancer can hide herself from view in the open without anything to actually hide behind. She cannot, however, hide in her own shadow.

Important points of note:

1. "... within 10 feet of some sort of shadow ..."
2. "... in the open without anything to actually hide behind ..."
3. This is a supernatural ability, not an extraordinary one. In short, it's magic. A wizard did it. It doesn't have to make logical sense, even shaky semi-logical sense.

Looking around me, I see that within 10 feet of me, there is a pen lying flat. It casts a shadow -- a very tiny shadow, but a shadow. Were I a shadowdancer, I could now hide in plain sight, even if the pen were the only thing around me casting a shadow (it isn't, of course -- even my keyboard casts a shadow). Note that I don't have to hide in the pen's shadow. I just need "some sort of shadow" to be within 10 feet of me. Even if I don't go any closer to it or attempt to hide in it, it's within 10 feet of me, and I can proceed to hide. In plain sight.

You did get one thing right: shadowdancer Hide in Plain Sight isn't invisibility. Instead, it's arguably superior to invisibility, which can be overcome by many types of creatures, whereas the shadowdancer can pick up the Darkstalker feat and be nearly undetectable by anything save a superior Spot check. Of course, a properly built Batman wizard still more or less completely trumps this in the end, but that's because wizards always win.

However, it's worth noting that a rogue who dips shadowdancer for HiPS is one of the few classes, and possibly the only non-caster, that has a snowball's chance of defeating Batman, assuming she can actually find him. Even then, it's a dicey long-shot, and the wizard still has an overwhelming versatility advantage in general play, which is generally more important than PvP performance.

[Person_Man]

I think its a bad idea. Dodge and Mobility are huge wastes. Combat Reflexes is likewise a waste for a Scout or Swift Hunter, who should be using Move + Greater Manyshot every turn. And since you're so mobile (moving every turn, bonus to movement, Flawless Stride, Tumble, Evasion) then its doubtful that you'll ever be beaten down by a full attack or otherwise take tons of damage. So HiPS doesn't really add much for this build.

Stick with levels of Ranger and Scout, and spend your feats on archery and Skirmish feats (and maybe Ancestral Weapon and Mercantile background, to maximize the effectiveness of your bow and arrows).

[ericgrau]

"A shadowdancer cannot hide in his own shadow."

Nor can he hide in a pen's shadow. See, it's the literal interpretation of the first part of the description while ignoring the rest (and the hide rules, for that matter) that causes problems.

You must have concealment to hide, and HiPS does not negate this in any part of the text. It does, however, let you make your way over to the concealment even while being observed.

arguskos: Yeah, I know what you mean. I don't think shadowdancer is a viable class for most players, since most just want to kill stuff.

[Silence]

LOL. Turn back now! Do not enter the dark side!

You may take as many prestige classes as you want, and take only as many levels as you want in each. There are people who take this to quite the extreme.

Hahaha... I once played a half vampire with levls in five differnt classes.

[UserClone]

ericgrau:
You actually seem to be the one who is taking only one part and ignoring the rest of the text. You cannot hide in your own shadow. In other words, if there are no shadows within ten feet of you (other than your own), you cannot HiPS. If there is ANY other shadow, you can. Simple as that. Of course, few people will actually play the RAW on that, or on much else if they want their game to stay remotely coherent. RAW is funny that way.

[Kiara LeSabre]

"A shadowdancer cannot hide in his own shadow."

Nor can he hide in a pen's shadow. See, it's the literal interpretation of the first part of the description while ignoring the rest (and the hide rules, for that matter) that causes problems.

1. "... within 10 feet of some sort of shadow ..."
2. "... in the open without anything to actually hide behind ..."

In the open. Without anything to actually hide behind. In the open. Without anything to actually hide behind. In the open ...

It's right there in black and white. You don't hide in the pen's shadow or in any shadow at all. You hide in the open, and you do that any time any shadow that isn't your own shadow is within 10 feet of you. Why? Because it's a supernatural ability, not an extraordinary one. It's like a spell, with "any shadow within 10 feet" being the spell component and a Hide check being the casting action.

You can say you wouldn't allow it in a game because you feel it's broken, but saying it isn't what it obviously is when the wording of the ability flatly contradicts you is rather pointless and silly. Of course, if you think Hide in Plain Sight is broken, you should pop open Logic Ninja's wizard guide someday. In a game with characters like a Batman wizard (or a CoDzilla, for that matter), a rogue needs Hide in Plain Sight and Darkstalker just to remain moderately relevant, much as a fighter needs Shock Trooper and Leap Attack. And ultimately, the pure casters will still be superior overall.

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

Depends what you want out of it.

If you're tempted by Hide in Plain Sight, snag a single level. More is usually bad.

If you like the flavor, take levels in Swordsage (Tome of Battle) instead. Take Shadow Hand maneuvers...you'll find you can do as much, and more, as a Shadowdancer, and you'll just be missing some shadows tagging around you.

[DraPrime]

Well the Shadow Dancer isn't particularly powerful, but it is damn fun to pop out of shadows and stab people. Power =/= fun. It really comes down to if you'll enjoy the whole shadow jumping thing.

[Kiara LeSabre]

You could probably get some mileage out of a rogue/shadowdancer mix with a single-level dip in shadowdancer. Martial adepts multi-class really well, and rogue sneak attack has nice synergy with shadowdancer tricks, while Hide in Plain Sight backed by Darkstalker makes you basically a ghost, and since you're advancing rogue, you can keep Use Magic Device moving steadily without paying cross-class points for it.

You might even be slightly respected by your full-caster demigod friends. Sort of like a "plucky sidekick."

[Gorbash]

Problem with Shadowdancer is that it doesn't get anything powerful past that HiPS, his abilities which he got during first few lvl just keep improving and as an ultimate ability at 10th lvl of the prestige class he gets Improved evasion!!! I mean, cmon, if he became a Shade, that'd be freakin awesome, this is just stupid. It's actually a step down from rogue, since he'll got most of his abilities sooner. And of course, no sneak attack. Flavor-wise it's good (although somewhat girly with dancing and all that), power-wise - on par with monk.

Of course, a properly built Batman wizard still more or less completely trumps this in the end, but that's because wizards always win.

You don't even have to be a properly built wizard. Even a blaster would do, since Shadowdancer isn't that much of a threat. Corpse Candle (reveals hidden creatures) + any incapaciting will do the work.

[Chronos]

If you're playing a core-only game, then a one-level dip into shadowdancer is a good idea for a rogue. Once you start getting other options available, though, nothing that Shadowdancer gives you is worth the prerequisite feats or giving up other class abilities you could potentially get instead.

Yes, Hide in Plain Sight is good, but there are better ways to get it: For instance, the Dark template from Tome of Magic will give it to you for the cost of 1 LA (or a Collar of Umbral Metamorphosis, from the same book). Or you can get it from three levels in Umbral Disciple (Magic of Incarnum), though that requires a feat or a level of an Incarnum class to qualify for. Or, for that matter, if you're patient, you can get it from just plain Ranger or Scout (since they both get Camoflage and the same version of Hide in Plain Sight, ask your DM if he'll let your ranger and scout levels stack).

[Stormageddon]

Take all of the rest of your levels in Ranger. It'll make your skirmish stronger.

Well I'm sitting on a 8 wisdom, so that ruins my chances of ever using magic. Plus not really interested in rangers class skills. Maybe continue taking classes in scout.

[Kiara LeSabre]

You don't even have to be a properly built wizard. Even a blaster would do, since Shadowdancer isn't that much of a threat. Corpse Candle (reveals hidden creatures) + any incapaciting will do the work.

I'm trying to prepare for and kill a guy who could have Foresight permanently active, with Celerity and Time Stop on standby, not to mention Teleport and any number of "scry and die" death combos. If you know I'm coming enough to have Corpse Candle active at the time you'd need it, I'm doing it wrong. If I actually walk into the spell's area of effect unprepared, I'm doing it wrong.

In fact, to go after a competent high-level wizard, assuming I can find him at all, I'm probably going to have to pull some fancy stuff involving UMD and Time Stop and Antimagic Field (and if I use that, I have to deal with the fact that I can't Hide in Plain Sight in an Antimagic Field), or possibly Mordenkainen's Disjunction. Simply walking up and "making with the stabbity" is not going to cut it, and if I go after a wizard not realizing this, I deserve what's coming to me.

[Chronicled]

Simply walking up and "making with the stabbity" is not going to cut it, and if I go after a wizard not realizing this, I deserve what's coming to me.

The better option is usually walking up and "making off with the lootz." With no hostile intent toward the wizard. Components pouch, Headband of +6 Int, spellbook... if you plan it right, you'll never trip the Contingency.

[Stormageddon]

I think its a bad idea. Dodge and Mobility are huge wastes. Combat Reflexes is likewise a waste for a Scout or Swift Hunter, who should be using Move + Greater Manyshot every turn. And since you're so mobile (moving every turn, bonus to movement, Flawless Stride, Tumble, Evasion) then its doubtful that you'll ever be beaten down by a full attack or otherwise take tons of damage. So HiPS doesn't really add much for this build.

That's actually a really good idea.

I was going to go for more of a sniper type build. I was going to get Shot on the run allowing me to move-shoot-HiPS. I do use combat reflects quite a bit when I get in a tight place I use a reach weapon+tumble skill a lot to fight in melee combat. But than again I really didn't read up on the Greater manyshot rules before designing this charter

[Kiara LeSabre]

The better option is usually walking up and "making off with the lootz." With no hostile intent toward the wizard. Components pouch, Headband of +6 Int, spellbook... if you plan it right, you'll never trip the Contingency.

No, but you might trip other things, assuming the wizard considers this possibility, and especially if God forbid he has Craft Contingent Spell.

Besides, I was just talking about what I'd do if I were a rogue and killing a wizard were my intended purpose. I'm not saying it's a healthy idea, just that it's theoretically possible with careful planning.

[ericgrau]

A shadowdancer can use the Hide skill even while being observed. As long as she is within 10 feet of some sort of shadow, a shadowdancer can hide herself from view in the open without anything to actually hide behind. She cannot, however, hide in her own shadow.

Well I'll be. Missed that part. She can also hide without anything to hide behind. Huh, that's a bit different from the ranger wording, and he doesn't even get it until much later.

Now that really is a bit front-loaded.

Hmm, so that means he can make melee attacks while hiding, but at a -20 penalty. Unlike the FAQ ranger example that needed spring attack to go out of and back into concealment.

[Kiara LeSabre]

Well I'll be. Missed that part. She can also hide without anything to hide behind. Huh, that's a bit different from the ranger wording, and he doesn't even get it until much lter.

Because, as I mentioned before, it's a supernatural ability, akin to a spell. You literally just "poof" right in front of them, even if they're looking right at you and you're out in the open. They might even think you did turn invisible, and they might actually waste time with something like See Invisibility hoping to find you. It's a reasonable mistake.

However, because it's a supernatural ability, it can be thwarted by things that thwart supernatural abilities, such as Antimagic Field.

[Chronicled]

No, but you might trip other things, assuming the wizard considers this possibility, and especially if God forbid he has Craft Contingent Spell.

Since Shadowdancer was in the discussion, I must have been thinking Core-only. That's the only excuse I have, really.

Besides, I was just talking about what I'd do if I were a rogue and killing a wizard were my intended purpose. I'm not saying it's a healthy idea, just that it's theoretically possible with careful planning.

Yeah, if anyone besides another wizard is up for it in Core, it's a rogue custom designed for the job. Out of Core, there's Cindy. Then you're going to need a god and some luck. (Until Epic casting comes into play, at least. That does tend to change things.)

[Kiara LeSabre]

Yeah, if anyone besides another wizard is up for it in Core, it's a rogue custom designed for the job. Out of Core, there's Cindy. Then you're going to need a god and some luck. (Until Epic casting comes into play, at least. That does tend to change things.)

Out of Core, there are also psions. I'll see your Mordenkainen's Magnificent Mansion and Mind Blank and raise you Metafaculty, Batman.

Edit: On that note, if you want to be an assassin, forget rogues or the assassin prestige class. You have to find your target, right? Well, psion gives you basically the only way in pre-epic 3.x to just blow right through the best avoidance spells in the game.