What +2 LA race is good?

[Frosty]

So I lucked out and stumbled onto a gestalt campaign that'll allow me to play a Druid/Swordsage combination. I'm thinking of either a +0 LA race or a +2 LA race. What migh be some good choices? Dwarf is never a bad choice I guess, and Lesser Aasimar is also good, and human is always nice for an extra Feat. But for the +2 LA choices, I've never even considered +2 LA before, because it's usually not worth it. But in a gestalt setting, losing 1 Initator Level is not too bad, so i need some advice on what template or race is good for +2 LA. Note that this build will probably want to focus on Wisdom since it'll give bonuses to Damage (if using a Strike from the chosen discipline), AC (Swordsage bonus), and of course spellcasting.

My theme is going to be Wildshaping into something that hits hard, cast Owl's Insight to gain a further +5 to damage per hit, and go to town on enemy using flaming paws of Dire Bear-ness or something similar via Desert Wind, and will also THROW opponents across the room for damage using Setting Sun maneuvers. Maneuver bonus of +4 and Improved Trip of +4 stacks, and add in high strength and large sie, and I might be ableto throw a dragon.

I wonder if I can Wild Shape into a Dragon somehow...but before any of that, i need to pick a race that synergizes with all of this. spellcasting is more of a secondary concern, but I'll keep full caster levels.

Meh, I can't Wildshape into Large dragons, so screw that. I wanna be as big and bad as possible.

[Dairun Cates]

Uh. Correct me if I'm wrong, but seeing as Gestalt levels aren't actually 2 levels, I don't think you can count 1 gestalt level as a +2 LA. You might be able to get away with having your level adjustment on one side, but even that's a bit iffy.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

Generally Gestalt allows LA on only one side. I also recommend taking Warshaper levels to delay stance aquisition until you reach a new level.

[Frosty]

I do have all of my level adjustments on one side. It's not iffy.

Druid 10 // LA 2/Swordsage 8

There are 2 levels of druid that aren't taken at the same time as my swordsage levels (the first 2 levels). 2 levels of a non-swordsage class gives me 1 Initiator Level. For example, a Druid 2/Swordsage 8 has an IL of 9 and can learn level 5 maneuvers. Very simple see?

[Frosty]

Generally Gestalt allows LA on only one side. I also recommend taking Warshaper levels to delay stance aquisition until you reach a new level.

Why do you say that?

[RTGoodman]

I don't know about a LA +2 template that's good, but every time people ask about good (or brokenly good) templates people bring up the (LA +1, I think) Dark (from ToM) and Mineral Warrior (not sure on the source) templates. Mineral Warrior gives penalties to Dex and Wis I think, though, so probably not a good choice. Dark might work depending on what you're looking for, maybe combined with some LA +1 race.


(If you were doing something like Illusionist or Beguiler//Swordsage I might suggest a Dark Whisper Gnome or something for awesome sneakiness, but I'm not sure about it if you're going Druid.)

[Frosty]

Hmm...Dark might not be a bad idea. Hide in Plain Sight fits with Swordsage. You're also faster, resistant to cold, hide and move silently better, and can see in the dark.

So if I wanna use Dark, what kick-ass +1 Race are there? I could just go Aasimar (it's be funny, a Dark Aasimar) but there's gotta be something better with a Wisdom bonus of some sort

[RTGoodman]

Say, isn't there a template out there somewhere (FR book, Dragon, or something) called Magic-Blooded that gives you +2 Cha and -2 Wis for +0 LA? Maybe see if you could talk your DM into allowing the reverse (+2 Wis, -2 Cha, LA +0) and slap it on an Aasimar for a Dark Anti-Magic-Blooded Aasimar with +4 Wis?

[tyckspoon]

Why do you say that?

At least one of the TOB classes (all of them? I only remember the Warblade's chart) has its stance progression arranged such that it gets a new stance before it reaches an initiator level where it can actually take a higher-level stance (since they're not divided across the levels as well as the normal maneuvers). So they end up having to take two lower level stances instead of stepping up the line normally. Taking a couple levels in something else delays gaining the stance until the initiator level better matches the maneuver level.

[vampire2948]

Frosty,


Elans are a cool option. Take a look, they'd be intresting to play with the dark template...I think. ^^


Vampire2948,

[RTGoodman]

Wait.

Githzerai are LA +2 and get +6(!) Dex, +2 Wis, -2 Int, darkvision, psionics, inertial armor, and SR (5 + 1/2 class levels). Seems pretty good to me. You'll lose that Dex bonus in wildshape, but I'd almost consider using one of the various non-wildshape Druid variants out there so you can keep everything you'd normally lose.

And now you just need to convince your DM that ALL of your class levels should count for the SR...[/devilish scheming]

At least one of the TOB classes (all of them? I only remember the Warblade's chart) has its stance progression arranged such that it gets a new stance before it reaches an initiator level where it can actually take a higher-level stance (since they're not divided across the levels as well as the normal maneuvers). So they end up having to take two lower level stances instead of stepping up the line normally. Taking a couple levels in something else delays gaining the stance until the initiator level better matches the maneuver level.

I'm pretty sure Crusader is like that, too, but I don't know if it's true for Swordsages (having not been able to play one yet).

[Frosty]

Swordsages get stacnes much more often than the other two classes, so they're actually fine.

Meh, maybe I'll stick with Human for extra Skill points and feat. Dunno. When I wildshape I'll be losing a lot of the racial stuff anyways...bah.

EDIT: Actually, Duergar/Gray Dwarves are pretty kickass for a +1 LA as well. +4 to all saves total vs spells and SLas, immunity to paralysis, phantasms, and poison, enlarge person and invisiblity 1/day, +4 bonus on move silently checks (great for stacking with Dark template)

[tyckspoon]

Half-giant isn't too bad either; plus Strength (probably mostly unused since you're planning to be a Wildshaper) and Con (good), penalty Dex (usually irrelevant, Wildshape), naturally psionic for some of those neat psionic feats, of the Giant type, so they get free martial weapon proficiency (not important since half of your gestalt is a Swordsage, tho)..

and powerful build, which is the real reason to consider one. It'll stay in effect while you're Wildshaped, which will help you achieve a properly impressive result on your Setting Sun throws and the other special attack forms that animals tend to be good at.

Duergar still gets a huge whackload of stuff, tho. I'm surprised it's not priced higher.

[Frosty]

The question is can I Enlarge Person myself while Wildshaped? I retain my own type when I Wildshape iirc, so Enlare Person should work correct? I know for a fact that Animal Growth doesn't work.

[tyckspoon]

The question is can I Enlarge Person myself while Wildshaped? I retain my own type when I Wildshape iirc, so Enlare Person should work correct? I know for a fact that Animal Growth doesn't work.

Yeah, that works. Alternate Form is pretty clear about not changing your type. The rules consider you a Humanoid bear or tiger or whatever, Enlarge Person works on Humanoids, Enlarge Person works on you as a wildshaped Humanoid bear.

[Frosty]

Terrific, so I will can become a HUGE Polar Bear or Dire Lion. Hey, I won't be too bad at Grappling either. God knows as a Druid everything besides Natural Spell is just gravy...

[Chronos]

...and powerful build, which is the real reason to consider one. It'll stay in effect while you're Wildshaped, which will help you achieve a properly impressive result on your Setting Sun throws and the other special attack forms that animals tend to be good at.

That's debatable... I think there's a feat which specifically allows you to benefit from Powerful Build while in another form, the existence of which feat suggesting that that's not always the case.

Ah, here we go, Powerful Wild Shape.

But being naturally psionic is good.

[Bayar]

Lumi is a good LA +2 race. Outsider, bonuses to good stats and a crapload of imunities. Monster Manual 3.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

The Shadow Creature template, from Lords of Madness and the Manual of the Planes, is only a +2 LA and probably one of the best templates in the game. Everything it grants are special qualities, which you'd retain while Wild Shaped.

[Adumbration]

The Shadow Creature template, from Lords of Madness and the Manual of the Planes, is only a +2 LA and probably one of the best templates in the game. Everything it grants are special qualities, which you'd retain while Wild Shaped.

Seconded. It's been a while since I last had a look at it, but from what I remember, it's very good.

EDIT: They get Shadow Blend, Su ability that allows you to get total concealment in all situations except full daylight. Also Darkvision, Resistance to cold, and every 4 HD they get one of the following: +2 Luck bonus to saves, Cause fear 1/day, Damage reduction 5/magic, Evasion, Fast healing 2, Mirror Image 1/day, Planeshift 1/day.

Hmm. No boni to abilities. It was worse than I remembered.

[Frosty]

Seconded. It's been a while since I last had a look at it, but from what I remember, it's very good.

EDIT: They get Shadow Blend, Su ability that allows you to get total concealment in all situations except full daylight. Also Darkvision, Resistance to cold, and every 4 HD they get one of the following: +2 Luck bonus to saves, Cause fear 1/day, Damage reduction 5/magic, Evasion, Fast healing 2, Mirror Image 1/day, Planeshift 1/day.

Hmm. No boni to abilities. It was worse than I remembered.

Do you think it's better than Dark template duergar?

[Tokiko Mima]

It won't work for your Druid side, but Karsites (from Tome of Magic) are a great +2 LA race for ToB practitioners. You get all the benefits of being a human (free Feat and skill points), Spell Resistance like a Drow except that it heals you, the ability to drain magic items with a touch, martial weapon and armor proficiences, and a cool white streak in your hair. The only downside is you have to plan your character in a way that doesn't rely on Vancian casting (arcane or divine) because you won't be able to cast spells like that. You can still use SLA's and Su abilities though!

[MammonAzrael]

Well, for my gestalt I was looking at the Saint template in the BoED. It's pretty crazy, and includes your Wis modifier to AC as an insight bonus, increasing all your DCs by 2, DR, you become an Outsider, and a lot more. The only downside being the requirements are a bit steep. Most of it is RP, but it also requires 3 Exalted feats. Look it over on page 184.

[Frosty]

Well, for my gestalt I was looking at the Saint template in the BoED. It's pretty crazy, and includes your Wis modifier to AC as an insight bonus, increasing all your DCs by 2, DR, you become an Outsider, and a lot more. The only downside being the requirements are a bit steep. Most of it is RP, but it also requires 3 Exalted feats. Look it over on page 184.

My character is in no way exalted. I had actually thought about Vow of Poverty but he just can't pull it off. Besides, BoED suggests that the Saint template NOT be allowed to players.

[Starsinger]

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/mo...icCreature.htm

Now admittedly, as it stands it's not terribly good since your Charisma as a druid should only be okay (Well, your physical stats are useless to you, might as well have decent mental, still int and wisdom tend to be better off). Although, if your DM allows you to take say, the "Snow White druid" feats on this site http://www.giantitp.com/articles/3Cs...QQ62al3RP.html it can be better.

Also, ask if you could get something like Ascetic Mage for swordsage, if only to switch from wisdom to AC to Charisma to AC, of course most DMs will recognize it as a blatant power play and say no. But really Charisma needs more use... Plus you can pick up that Force of Will (or is it personality?) feat that lets Will saves be charisma fueled...

Or if you don't want phrenic... then I just wasted your time and I apologize.

[Frosty]

If I were going for Sorcerer/Swordsage, then hell yes I'd go for something like that, but I really want a druid. In animal form, I should have decent Natural Armor anyways. Too bad I don't have Scintillating scales.

[Starsinger]

Unfortunately, all of my 3.5 books were put in an Aperture Science Emergency Intelligence Incinerator (read: I left them with a friend who enjoys 3.5) and so I cannot dumpster dive through all kinds of broken and over powered things, and had to work with what I had at hand. But, IIRC the Winged Template from Savage Species is +4 Dex, +2 Wis, LA 1...

[Xyk]

Could you use maneuvers while in wild shape? That would be pretty kick-ass.

I recommend the githzerai.

[Da Beast]

I don't remember the exact abilities, but Half Fey gives some pretty good stuff for +2 LA. Charm Person at will flight, some decent ability mods, a bunch more spell likes and some other things. It's good stuff.

[Frosty]

Could you use maneuvers while in wild shape? That would be pretty kick-ass.

I recommend the githzerai.

Any melee attack will work with maneuvers. SO yes, the bear with flaming paws disappears in a shadow and re-appears next to you (move action), then either breathes fire on you or pick you up and throws you against a tree for like 6d8 or 8d8 damage.