Running a high-level Dragon encounter [3.5]

[Ellisthion]

Okay, I'm up to DMing the very last session of my entire campaign, and I want it to be good. The party consists of, in order of approximate effectiveness:

Duskblade, Warblade, Rogue (mainly because of sneak attack), Wizard (very much not batman), Cleric, Druid, Ranger

All characters are Level 17. Party has access to PHB, PHBII, ToB, and a Mass Fly spell. They are banned from Polymorph spells, Gate and Celerity.

The Dragon is Silver. I was planning on throwing a CR 21 Very Old one at them... but the party has shown themselves to be able to dish out over 200 damage in a round between them, and I'm a bit concerned they'll go through it too quickly, even considering AC, flying, etc.

Firstly, is it a good idea to use a bigger dragon? I'm thinking yes, but... how much bigger?

Secondly, in a recent encounter, the Warblade used some level 8 maneuver which stunned someone. I'm assuming that this will work against the Dragon, so is there any way it can protect against it, beyond having an obscene armour class?

Thirdly, is there any way it can protect against the Sneak Attack?

Fourthly, are the following protected against by Death Ward: Vampiric Touch, the partial damage from Finger of Death...?

Finally, are there any good tips anyone has on how to run the encounter?

Thanks in advance.

[Adumbration]

Hmm. Have you thought of making it several dragons, a dragon family, perhaps? One matri/patriarch, plus the odd uncle, couple of cousins and a bunch of children should do it. At least it would help lengthen the battle.

[Renx]

When dealing with dragons, it's location, location, location. In general you'll want to assume that the dragon is a thousand years old, has an obscene amount of magical items (which it can use), and really wants to keep on living. You should also assume that if your players are stupid enough to challenge the dragon in its lair, they're pretty much dead.

I'd recommend first giving her an ability to polymorph, through an item or innate ability or spell. Also plan contingencies for huge damage which will mean "evacuate". The dragon is 1,000 years old, a silver (so quite intelligent and Good to boot -- I wouldn't put it too far to say it's an ally of some pretty powerful beings)

Now, the dragon should be able to see anywhere in the lair, thanks to, say, contingencied clairvoyance or similar spells, which means it won't be flanked and can release nasty traps and will be immune to sneak attack when in the lair.

Have some good (but expendable) loot slightly hidden, then hide the 'good stuff' behind actual rock walls (through extensive use of mud to rock and lead sheets to prevent scrying) so that they'll need days and/or weeks to find anything good. Also have some stuff near supporting elements of the lair so that the lair becomes a no-teleport tomb (you were going to make the lair non-teleport except for the dragon, right?). Then the dragon can pick them out one by one, maybe with a doppleganger scheme or two.

A few good summons from a ring of spell storing will do wonders even when the party is outside the lair. Remember, the dragon wants to keep living and has no mercy or intention of playing fair with people who want to kill it, skin and disembowel it for spell components and loot everything it owns.

Of course, this all depends solely on whether you want 1) a TPK, 2) your players to actually kill the dragon, 3) A long-term nemesis which wants its stuff back, 4) interesting reactions from a neighbouring orc clan which notices that the long-time protector of a nearby country is gone.

All in all, a Very Old wyrm shouldn't be just thrown in front of players with a "kill plz" sign.

//Edit1: Personally, I'd say with the power concentration you have there you'll want the dragon to 1) wear them down, kill one or two if possible with no real risks, 2) spy on them constantly, say, put a curse on the Duskblade/Rogue/Wizard which lets the dragon see/hear through him, also eliminating sneak attack 3) Leave a way out. If the group decides to just clear off and leave the dragon for another day, that counts as a 'win'. If they get into a no-win situation, have the dragon offer a deal -- their lives for a geased quest they do for the dragon. Then have them realize the dragon is a force for Good and see them writhe in conflict.

[Eldariel]

Dragon has Blindsight, so he's very unlikely to be sneak attacked. Also, don't forget that Dragons are casters; just get it some protective spells up and use its incredible mobility to stay the hell away from trouble while making breathing strafes. If you have Draconomicon, you can do so much more with the bad guy, but even without, the breaths and 13th level sorcerer casting should be quite enough. Have it buff up, blast and potentially wade into melee with Lion's Charge (it's not in the listed books though; alternatively use Quickened teleportation-effects if Lion's Charge is not available) to Pounce a character with Power Attack for lots depending on their AC.

Hover and Wingover are probably musts as feats to make the flight all the more potent (alternatively, pick up Improved Flight twice if you use Complete Adventurer for the monster) along with Flyby Attack to actually stay the hell away from the PCs, and don't forget that a Dragon of such high HD has access to Epic feats. Also, Snatch is a potent offense form for flyers, pretty much disabling one opponent. You should check www.d20srd.com for them.


The Warblade's maneuver is called "White Raven Hammer" and the best way to deal with it is to make it miss; Displacement, Mirror Image and so on in addition to AC help a lot, in addition to just staying out of reach. I don't remember any Core/PHBII/ToB spells that stop Stun though, but Contingency is a level 6 spell and thus available to the Dragon, so some Contingency>Teleport trigger could do it to dodge it once entirely. Don't forget to make use of Silver Dragon's innate ability to control winds; having clouds or such on the sky can give it complete concealment giving it a relevant strategic advantage against the players, forcing them to try and detect it through alternative means while the Dragon enjoys Blindsight if they get close.


Death Ward does not protect from Vampiric Touch by strict reading as Vampiric Touch isn't defined as Negative Energy. It's certainly a reasonable houserule though as it's a Necromancy Touch. It does protect vs. Finger of Death though as it's Death-magic, to which Death Ward makes you utterly immune.


One thing you could do is give the Dragon one Sorcerer-level. That would allow you to pick up Metamagic Specialist to allow metamagicking spells more effectively (without having to burn a feat on Rapid Metamagic) and give it an access to 7th level spells. Also, don't forget all the skills Dragons have; they can be very effective skill monkeys and after maxing Spot and Listen, the rest are fairly open (Tumble too). Rather than make the Dragon bigger, give it more caster levels if you feel it's too weak in its present form.


In what kind of an environment are they facing the Dragon? That should have a large impact on how exactly to run the fight. Anyways, the Dragon should probably open up with Breath and somehow strive to make up for the huge numeric advantage the PCs have; the action economy is going to be a problem. Trying to stay out of melee reach would allow the Dragon to lure the PCs apart though, and just doing strafing Breath runs is fairly efficient.

Don't overlook the chance of the Dragon escaping if things fall ill for it, and use some Healing to heal 'er up. Main thing is, engage far and keep the distance; if the players burn tons of resources on buffs, the Dragon can simply escape and wait for them to run out. It has an insane intelligence; play it as a creature with one (also, it probably has some Divination-spells on the list, some informants and so on so it probably knows the PCs are coming). Use magic mostly to protect the Dragon and try to divide and conquer the PCs. Using some summon-spells or items (or just underlings) to even the scales numerically shouldn't be totally out of the question either (you could have it take Leadership).

Note that in all likelihood, the players need to play their characters to far greater efficiency than they have thus far if they plan on killing the Dragon as the Dragon is very much able to escape them and to hide and make their life difficult as an opposing "general". The players will need to extensively use magic to trace it, to catch it and to kill it if the Dragon chooses to avoid conflict.


A small list of buffs to consider:
-Mage Armor
-Shield
-Nondetection
-Greater Invisibility
-Mirror Image, Greater
-Spell Immunity (few important ones)
-Contingency: Teleport or something
-Chasing Perfection (+4 to all scores is nice for Dragons who don't tend to wear ability-boosting items)
and so on. Some last whole day, others can be Quickened or cast before combat, some are immediate actions already and some can be cast while escaping the opponent.

Items:
-Ring of Counterspells (Greater Dispel Magic) x 2
-Cloak of Resistance +5 or so
-Monk's Belt (couple this with Mage Armor and Shield for AC 54)
-Other defensive equipment; the offense is strong enough as it stands

Other spells:
-Etherealness, Swift
-Any Fear-effects; Frightful Presence makes them Shaken, another Frightened and Frightened creatures are forced to flee - Fear does this for one round even if they succeed their save.
-Any Wall-spells and such.
-Teleport.
-Heal.

[Griffin131]

Duskblade, Warblade, Rogue (mainly because of sneak attack), Wizard (very much not batman), Cleric, Druid, Ranger

7 people? ouch.

Firstly, is it a good idea to use a bigger dragon? I'm thinking yes, but... how much bigger?

Well, they should be able to take out a CR 21 pretty easily -- if they were monsters, it would be a EL23 encounter. Great Wyrms are CR26, so thatd be a good final encounter, if hes solo.

Secondly, in a recent encounter, the Warblade used some level 8 maneuver which stunned someone. I'm assuming that this will work against the Dragon, so is there any way it can protect against it, beyond having an obscene armour class?

Use you spells to take the Warblade out of the fight, and deal with him later.

Thirdly, is there any way it can protect against the Sneak Attack?

Dont get flanked. Since you can fly, that shouldnt be too hard.

Fourthly, are the following protected against by Death Ward: Vampiric Touch, the partial damage from Finger of Death...?

The subject is immune to all death spells, magical death effects, energy drain, and any negative energy effects.

While Vamp. Touch and FoD dont specifically say they are negative energy effects, it shouldnt be a bad thing to say they are, hence being stopped by Death Ward.

Finally, are there any good tips anyone has on how to run the encounter?

Play the dragon as a high level caster, thats just really tough. And has Reverse Gravity at will.

[Eldariel]

Well, they should be able to take out a CR 21 pretty easily -- if they were monsters, it would be a EL23 encounter. Great Wyrms are CR26, so thatd be a good final encounter, if hes solo.

The party of 7 is a bit under EL 23; about EL 22 (precisely EL 21, 19 and 17). Still, Dragons are under-CRd so a properly played Very Old Silver is going to be more than a match for the party unless the Wizard, Cleric and Druid really know what they're doing (which is doesn't sound like, judging by the listing given).

While Vamp. Touch and FoD dont specifically say they are negative energy effects, it shouldnt be a bad thing to say they are, hence being stopped by Death Ward.

FoD is a Death-description spell so it's stopped by Death Ward entirely.


Btw, I just realized the Silver can have access to Cleric-spells, which would give it Freedom of Movement, which would give it an access to a variety of immunities. Also, with one Sorcerer-level, it would have an access to Force Cage, which is incredibly brutal especially against ill-equipped foes.

Oh yeah, give it Martial Study: Shadow Blink for Swift Action teleportation (it has the HD for the IL). Heck, one adept-level would allow recovery.

[Emperor Tippy]

I would up it to a great wyrm, but if you don't want to do that then look at epic feats.

Repulsion + Permanent Emanation means that no creature can approach to within 130 feet of you without making a will save, and its not mind affecting so mindblank doesn't defeat it. And with permanent emanation you can turn it off and back on as a free action, forcing another save. This effectively means that no melee character can touch you unless you let them.

Also add in a Globe of Invulnerability + Permanent Emanation for immunity to all spells of 4th level or lower.

[Greg]

Try and make it a 3D encounter, so the dragon is able to use flight to get to the most advantageous position

I'd tend to add in a few younger dragons to increase your tactical options. Bear in mind that all silver dragons can use alternate form, so you might want to add in some real humanoids (allies of the dragons), so that they can blend in and come as a bit more of a surprise when they turn into dragons. This would also work as an escape strategy, especially if you have clerical casting, or some actual clerics - PCs severely wound the dragon and it flees (preferably forcing the PCs to take a longer way around, or using spells/SLAs/paralyzing breath weapon), only for it to be disguised as a humanoid, in a group of 4/5 and fully healed.

Since bluff and disguise are class skills for silver dragons, you could have a mature adult (or even your main dragon) masquerading as a friendly NPC who is out to hunt the dragon. Then when the encounter begins, you have a dragon in the middle of the party, ready to attack the party.

The trick would be to use the terrain to get the advantage of the players and ambush them. Make the lair a maze in 3 dimensions - lots of routes that can be taken - get them lost.

[Jack_Simth]

Okay, I'm up to DMing the very last session of my entire campaign, and I want it to be good. The party consists of, in order of approximate effectiveness:

Duskblade, Warblade, Rogue (mainly because of sneak attack), Wizard (very much not batman), Cleric, Druid, Ranger

All characters are Level 17. Party has access to PHB, PHBII, ToB, and a Mass Fly spell. They are banned from Polymorph spells, Gate and Celerity.

Seven level 17 characters? Even without the Wizard playing batman, that's death on a stick for nearly any opposition that's not "overwhelming". With seven 17's, you're looking at a party level of about 19, give or take - to get something that'll actually challenge them, you'll need an encounter level of around 23 or 25. With a Silver, that's a mated pair of Very Old's or Ancients; alternately, a single Wyrm will do. However, you do NOT want them facing a single opponent - the action differential will eat it to nothing in a round. Multiple dragons is the way to go.

The Dragon is Silver. I was planning on throwing a CR 21 Very Old one at them... but the party has shown themselves to be able to dish out over 200 damage in a round between them, and I'm a bit concerned they'll go through it too quickly, even considering AC, flying, etc.

You don't want Very Old - Ancient or Wyrm at a minimum. And you also want two dragons, at least.

Firstly, is it a good idea to use a bigger dragon? I'm thinking yes, but... how much bigger?

One age category, and a second dragon of the same age.

Secondly, in a recent encounter, the Warblade used some level 8 maneuver which stunned someone. I'm assuming that this will work against the Dragon, so is there any way it can protect against it, beyond having an obscene armour class?

Thirdly, is there any way it can protect against the Sneak Attack?

Blurr will do it - can't sneak attack something with a miss chance.

Fourthly, are the following protected against by Death Ward: Vampiric Touch, the partial damage from Finger of Death...?

Vampiric Touch? Not so much - but then, it's a low damage, direct-damage effect, so it shouldn't really pose much of a problem, all things considered. Displacement, Blurr, or Mirror Image (possibly Contingent) will help with that nicely. Death Ward stops Finger of Death Completely, as Finger of Death is a [Death] Effect.

Finally, are there any good tips anyone has on how to run the encounter?

Thanks in advance.

Silvers have native shapechanging abilities, Disguise and Bluff as class skills. They're manipulators. If you're stuck on a single dragon, run the encounter with the dragon not being there - just Fredrick Eigenslayer, dragon hunter, who beat them to the punch (Permanent Image of a Silver Dragon corpse for realism - make sure it's in a tricky to reach spot, so the party won't immediately find out it's a fake; you could also Craft up a stone version so thrown rocks will bounce off if they try to test it quickly).

A few alternate methods:
The dragon finds them on their way to the lair and (in disguise) gets one of them alone, kills him, and replaces him. Rinse and repeat. If you're going this route, make sure to pass messages about things in such a way that the rest of the players won't know what's going on.

Dragon uses several Permanencied Symbols - and does them in such a way that there are always a few active (can set any triggering condition, and Permanencied ones recharge after 10-minutes of down-time - have them set to "as soon as possible" or similar). They're in the dragon's actual lair, so the dragon keeps the rogue from simply disarming them.

Dragon ambushes them (briefly) on the way to their lair - but doesn't engage; as soon as they start to buff up, dragon leaves, heals, and (having ID's buff spells with Spellcraft), does it again after the buffs run out. And again, and again, and again.... basically, a war of attrition on the road (Silvers get Cleric access to spells, so the Dragon can have Heal).

[ashmanonar]

Use you spells to take the Warblade out of the fight, and deal with him later.

This could be interesting. Warblades have decent saves, and some pretty substantial maneuvers (which are immediate reactions, letting the WB use a Concentration check in place of a save.) if they have those maneuvers chosen for the day.

The best way to marginalize the warblade is to impose miss chances on him. Displacement, etc.

[Emperor Tippy]

This could be interesting. Warblades have decent saves, and some pretty substantial maneuvers (which are immediate reactions, letting the WB use a Concentration check in place of a save.) if they have those maneuvers chosen for the day.

The best way to marginalize the warblade is to impose miss chances on him. Displacement, etc.

Permanent Emanation Repulsion. He has to make a DC 23 will save if he wants to approach the dragon. Throw in a Cloak of Charisma +6 and its a DC 26 save. And the dragon can force an unlimited number of saves per round.

[Innis Cabal]

You have 7 players, if the wizard isnt batman i would assume he is a damage dealer, better then having a sorcerer as that would really make things painful, and im guessing the cleric is a healbot.

One thing you have to assume right away is that the dragon is intellegent, more so then anyone in your party save -perhaps- the wizard, and its been around far far longer then any of them, if its as old as you want to make it. I dont see why you couldnt bump this up to a 26, though at 17 that would be -very- rough-.

The problem with flying is if the party has anything that can stun/dazzle your dragon is in trouble, even more so then if it were on the ground, as falling damage takes into account every object in the game.

With that being said, if the dragon is defending itself, it should be smart enough to pick out individual class's. The cleric looks more religious, chances are he is a healer, the ranger has a bow, ranged support, things of that nature. The dragon, if it wants to be alive at the end, should prioritize who its going to take out. Cleric, then wizard, then anyone else. With the blast support taken out for the most part(Duskblade nonewithstanding but a few breathweapons of fly-by's should take him out) its just a matter of flying out of range and raining death from above.

Also its a battleground. It is acceptable to drop things on your party, even pick party members up and drop them on their friends. Use tactics and you should party wipe them effectivly. If they are clever and use tactics as well, they might win. Dragon combats are some of the hardest in the game, and they should stay that way.

[kjones]

I'm surprised nobody's mentioned Shimmering Scales, a 2nd level arcane spell from (IIRC) the Spell Compendium. Gives you a deflection bonus to touch AC equal to your natural armor bonus. Since one of the biggest weaknesses of any dragon is its low touch AC (hello, Maximized Shivering Touch!) but they all have high natural armor, this covers that weakness nicely.

[Eldariel]

kjones: The problem with that is, he didn't list Spell Compendium as an available source. And actually, the spell is from Draconomicon and does the following:

-Gain Con of Deflection AC
-Lose ½xCon Natural Armor


So it's handy, but not as dumb good as the initial description would have us believe (Dragons have surprisingly low Con) - effectively adds ½ Con to AC (and skyrockets Touch AC). As I said before, Draconomicon does so much for Dragon encounters it's not even funny. Metabreath feats, all the Dragon-spells, etc.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Give it the Corrupt Creature template (BoVD), which considering the book it's perfectly fair for a DM to use it for opponents but not allow PCs to use it.

Use a LOT of crowd control on the PCs. Use the Draconomicon if you want, it's a monster-specific book whereas the resources allowed to PCs are PC-specific books. Just trade out one of the PCs' allowed books for this monster if you think they'll cry about it. That includes a Gemstone of Fortification (immunity to critical hits and sneak attacks), feats like Recover Breath, Clinging Breath, and Maximize Breath. Note that Clinging Breath can be made to last for multiple rounds, at the cost of additional rounds of waiting to breathe again. Don't be afraid to give it epic feats that it qualifies for. The PCs have 9th level spells, so make sure it has at least 8th level spells whether by age or class levels.

Make the fight tricky. Give its lair multiple chambers, they'll encounter a Projected Image of it initially which will cast a few spells then retreat through a room full of mirrors. Inside the room will be 3 simulacrums of the dragon, which the PCs will spend time fighting while its Projected Image batters them with spells, they'll have no idea which is the real one. the mirrored room will be a vast circular chamber, though with a fairly low ceiling. There will be another room above from which it will occasionally use a Maximized Clinging breath attack on as many of them as it can hit, with Persistent Images of more mirrors hiding the windows through which it does it. Throw around Greater Dispel Magic if they have a lot of buffs (it will know due to permanencied arcane sight), and put holes in the floor containing advanced gelatinous cubes which are hidden by persistent images.

Once they've defeated all of those it will open a door at the opposite side of the room which leads up into its chamber, and taunt the PCs into facing it. There should be a Permanencied Wall of Dispel Magic (which it could have researched via the DMG rules) at the top of the ramp on the way in, and also in each of the windows in the floor to prevent magical means of flying up into that room. They'll still risk falling through those windows, which will be hidden by illusions from both sides. It would take a few rounds for them to run back up if they do fall through, which will serve to divide the group somewhat with on effort or actions on its part.

As for the dragon itself, give it either Accelerate Metamagic: Quicken from Races of the Dragon, or Rapid Metamagic from the Complete Mage. Practiced Spellcaster which is in several of the Complete books is also a must. Make it use things like Quickened Web on the party, Maze and Quickened Slow on the most heavily armored opponents, Quickend Blindness on unarmored or lightly armored characters especially who are using spell components, Quickened Silence targeted on a point in space to affect multiple spellcasters, etc. Some of those area effects can also serve to herd them toward the holes in the floor if they try to maneuver around them. It should also use buffs like Mage Armor, Shield, Magic Vestment on both of those, Shield of Faith, and Displacement. Have it also use Summon Monster VII to get some Huge Air Elementals just before they burst in. Using Thaumaturgist from the DMG to boost its spellcasting would be amazing, especially for Contingent Conjuration. Maybe even use Extend Spell for the shorter duration buffs and summons, possibly via a Metamagic Rod. Definitely give it Heal, which it should use liberally. A Contingency with Heal would also be a good idea. Also keep in mind that if it thinks they'll defeat it, the dragon should flee via spells like Teleport, since a creature which has been alive as long as it has would not be foolish enough to stick around to be destroyed.

Each time a PC falls into a pitfall, wait a few rounds and then rotate the entire grid, minis and everything so they don't really remember where the pitfalls are.

[Rashmi]

kjones: The problem with that is, he didn't list Spell Compendium as an available source. And actually, the spell is from Draconomicon and does the following:

-Gain Con of Deflection AC
-Lose ½xCon Natural Armor


So it's handy, but not as dumb good as the initial description would have us believe (Dragons have surprisingly low Con) - effectively adds ½ Con to AC (and skyrockets Touch AC). As I said before, Draconomicon does so much for Dragon encounters it's not even funny. Metabreath feats, all the Dragon-spells, etc.

And the spell was updated in the spell compendium and turns Natural Armor into Deflection.

Don't tell other people they are wrong when you have no idea what they are talking about.

[Eldariel]

And the spell was updated in the spell compendium and turns Natural Armor into Deflection.

Don't tell other people they are wrong when you have no idea what they are talking about.

Also, the spell is named Scintillating Scales, which is why I didn't find it in SC. "No idea" is pretty harsh; I have a fairly good idea what I'm talking about especially given the fact that I'm working off faulty base information (which is why I missed the final link; after I figured out the right name, I didn't exactly think to recheck SC to see if the spell actually was there under a different name). I am wrong though, but the fact remains that SC isn't on the list of allowed books.

[dyslexicfaser]

A Corrupted Creature silver dragon? Interesting.

I think the strategy you'd use would depend on whether they're fighting this thing in its lair, in which case flying is a tricky proposition, or out in the open.

If it's out in the open, strafing is the way to go, as an earlier poster said. Put that 200+ movement to use. If you can catch them on the ground, consider the Dragonlance Campaign Setting feat chain that starts with Fly-by Attack and ends with being able to use your breath weapon in a way that would murder entire armies. If they're already using Mass Fly, use spells to bring down the rogue and warblade if you can, then close in and nail the wizard. For added fun, use the Snatch-and-Swallow feat to eat him.

If it's to be the lair, have it either trapped to high heaven or with contingencies in place.

[Rashmi]

Also, the spell is named Scintillating Scales, which is why I didn't find it in SC. "No idea" is pretty harsh; I have a fairly good idea what I'm talking about especially given the fact that I'm working off faulty base information (which is why I missed the final link; after I figured out the right name, I didn't exactly think to recheck SC to see if the spell actually was there under a different name). I am wrong though, but the fact remains that SC isn't on the list of allowed books.

Sorry didn't see his post, just yours. I had no idea (Yes I see the irony) he gave the wrong spell name.

[Ellisthion]

Arrrgh, I just wrote a huge post and lost it to the internet.

Thanks for the responses, this is great.

I'll use the Draconomicon, and maybe Epic and Scintillating Scales. I'm not up to scratch on Epic stuff, so I'm not sure what feats to take. Permanent Emanation is probably not in the character of the dragon.

The dragon is a solitary female evil silver. She has exhausted almost all options and allies, with just enough minions remaining to let her know when the PCs are coming. I will probably up her to Wyrm.

I was planning on the location being a large, open, frozen lake. Control Winds can add a blizzard to the mix. The actual lair is a small cave adjacent; I was intending purely outdoor combat to make use of flying, winds, etc.

On party roles:
Wizard: Bit of a wildcard: traditionally a fireballer, but I've been trying to help her move away from that. Unlikely to cast any battlefield control or protective spells. Or ability damage. Or metamagic.
Cleric: Casts a few buffs and wades into melee. Has over 200 hp when buffed.
Duskblade uses Vampiric Touch excessively, but is probably the most 'creative' member of the party, which is why I listed him as most dangerous. Both he and the Warblade tend to Dimension Hop into annoying places, like on top of fliers.
Stuff the Warblade has used: the stunning thing, Iron Heart Surge, some flaming attack thing, something to move another's initiative, Rabid Bear Strike...

Thanks to whoever pointed out that Sneak Attack is stopped by Concealment.

Is a breath of paralysing gas a good opener?

If she strikes from Greater Invisibility, does the party have to save against Frightful Presence?

[Innis Cabal]

Ya its a good opener, if even two of them fail its going to be a fun fight.

[Nemoricus]

Frightful presence requires the dragon be visible to take effect. Dra. 22, Rules: Frightful presence sidebar.

Draconomicon gives some recommended epic feats for dragons in chapter 2.

[Rei_Jin]

Craft contingent spell and Strafing Breath are two feats you should heavily consider.

Strafing Breath can be found in the Dragonlance Campaign Setting, and adds greatly to what a dragon can do with their breath weapon, with devastating effects.

Also, if the PCs don't yet know that it's a Silver they're fighting, use various means (such as disguise checks, spells, etc) to try and convince them that it's a Red or Gold dragon. They'll prepare themselves with fire resistance/immunity, then you hit them with cold damage breath weapon.

[Eldariel]

First, answers:

-Is a breath of paralysing gas a good opener?

It's solid, provided that they don't have immunities to gas-effects at the point. I'd probably take the Quicken Breath-feat, and combine the Paralysing Gas-breath with a Lion's Charge full attack with Snatch & Power Attack (provided that you've got Spell Compendium to perform the Pouncing Charge; otherwise just Force Cage one of the meleers and take distance) to leverage buffs you may have against the guys who didn't fall to the Breath. Alternatively some summon, or generally another offensive action on the first turn to even out the number of combatants.

-If she strikes from Greater Invisibility, does the party have to save against Frightful Presence?

Frightful Presence doesn't require the PCs to see the Dragon; it always works when within range of the characters.


I fear a properly played Silver Wyrm threatens TPK vs. that bunch, but if the party can pull it off, all the more power to them. Numerically, a Wyrm seems like quite an appropriate challenge.

Even without Permanent Emanation, Repulsion should be a spell to cast as it adds nicely to the whole anti-melee suite. Also, in addition to invisibility, clouds et al. provide nice sources of concealment for the swift Dragon.

If the Dragon gets badly hurt, a Contingency should whisk it to safety and it can Heal itself and Teleport right back to the fray, preferably as the PCs are licking their wounds. Note that with Maximize Breath, you could one-shot most party members failing the save (Maximized Breath = 176 damage), so that's something to think about for a big opener too.


But basically, a Dragon is effectively a Gish in a can, so they need to be played as one. Having access to Epic feats of course is awesome, but mostly they should just be treated as high level Gishes with lots of attacks, strong defenses and a breath weapon.

[Chronos]

I'm surprised nobody's mentioned Antimagic Field yet. If the dragon can get a couple hours' warning before the party attacks, it can just cast an Antimagic Field on itself (widened via a metamagic rod, if you prefer), to negate almost all of the party's options, while leaving almost all of its own most effective options available. Most of your party's offensive capabilities are melee-based, meaning that if the dragon keeps to the air, they can't do much of anything to it (since their flight is magical, but its isn't). Meanwhile, it just makes flyby attack snatches, and eats the party one at a time at its leisure. If possible, stay out of the warblade's reach, in case he readies a strike triggered by the dragon getting in range: After you've taken out everyone else, you can dismiss the AMF, and just breathe on him from the air, out of range, until he fails his save.

[Emperor Tippy]

AMF can be good for dragons but there are ways to make it not so good. Getting it as a permanent emanation is a very good idea for a dragon, as it allows them to turn it on and off as a free action.

[Nemoricus]

-If she strikes from Greater Invisibility, does the party have to save against Frightful Presence?

Frightful Presence doesn't require the PCs to see the Dragon; it always works when within range of the characters.

This isn't true. According to the Draconomicon:

A creature must be able to see the dragon for its frightful presence ability to take effect. If the dragon is invisible or has total concealment, the ability does not work.

Emphasis mine.

[Chronos]

AMF can be good for dragons but there are ways to make it not so good.

Any examples, from the allowed books? I'm having a hard time thinking of any.

Though I certainly agree that if epic feats are on the table, it's even better as a permanent emanation than as a spell. If nothing else, it means that the dragon doesn't need to have advance warning to cast it, and it can still use its breath weapon.

[Cuddly]

It wouldn't be totally out there to give the dragon a humanoid companion. Maybe a blackguard or something. There are some very good spells out there for a blackguard. Make him level 15-17. Don't overoptimize.

[Talic]

Step 1: The single greatest asset of a dragon is HD. Some may disagree, citing SR, SLA's, Spellcasting, superior physical stats, a huge horde, powerful resistances, and the like.

But no. HD.

Even a moderate CR dragon has 21 HD. The Very old you suggested? 4 epic feats. That's good.

However, if you want to use the CR effectively in another way, here we go:

Silver dragon: CR 19.

Juvenile. Starts off, casting as a level 3 sorceror.

By Virtue of race, the creature is:

Large Dragon.

HD: 16 (d12, total HP 152)
AC 24
BAB/Grapple: +16/+24
Attack: +19
Saves: F:13, R:10,W:14
Special Attacks: Breath weapon (8d8 cold Ref DC 21 half; or Paralyze 1d6+4 rounds, Fort DC 21 negates), Casts as level 3 sorceror
Str 19, Dex 10, Con 17, Int 18, Wis 19 Cha 18
CR: 10

Now. Clerical power does not add directly to the power of this beastie, so lets add some cleric levels.

HD: 32 (16d12+48 racial, 17d8+51 class) (279 HP)
AC: 24
BAB/Grapple: +28/+36
Attack: +31
Saves: F:23, R:15, W:25
Special Attacks: Breath weapon (8d8 cold Ref DC 21 half; or Paralyze 1d6+4 rounds, Fort DC 21 negates), Casts as level 3 sorceror
Str 19, Dex 10, Con 17, Int 18, Wis 19(30), Cha 26
CR: 19

Spells per day (Sorceror): 6/6
DC: 14+ Spell level

Lv 0: Resistance, Detect Magic, Ghost Sound, Message, Open/Close
Lv 1: True Strike, Mage Armor, Obscuring Mist

Spells Per Day (Cleric): 6/8+1/8+1/7+1/7+1/6+1/6+1/4+1/3+1/2+1
Domains: Pick 2.

Now you have a 16 HD dragon with 17 levels of Cleric (levels 1-16 add 1/2 CR each. Once levels equal racial HD, they go to 1 CR each, so level 17 is +1 CR. Thus, level 1-16 = +8 CR, and level 17 brings it up to +9. Total CR: 19)

Now build the cleric to be Codzilla. As it gains 9th level spells at HD 32, it can't get epic spellcasting (though 1 more level of anything, along with practiced spellcaster - cleric, would get that), but it still gets 4 epic feats. And CoDZilla. And 32 HD, and Cleric casting up to level 9 spells.

For a real bang, give it leadership. Now use those mooks to buff, trap the lair, etc. The best is 15th level. Use items to get +6 cha, +6 wis (Reflected above). Put your level boost in Cha. Use miracles to get +5 Wis, +1 Cha (Also reflected above)

Assuming the dragon has Great Renown and has special power (+3 leadership score mod), then total mods are: Cha (+8) and Special Mods (+3) = +11. Dragon qualifies for Epic leadership at 29 HD. Now, its cohort can be equal to its level. So get a level 17 main cohort, and go with followers (extra +2 on that check, for having a stronghold, total follower leadership score of 30, netting him the following forces to form a small town offering him tribute.

300 level 1 characters.
30 level 2
15 level 3
8 level 4
4 level 5
2 level 6
1 level 7

These can be rogues, sorcerors, and clerics, mostly.

Go from there, and have fun. Now you have a CR 19 Creature that gets a free CR 17 creature, and a butt ton of lessers. You should get up to 9th level spells for both arcane and divine, an extremely high BAB, and, with spells, good AC, evasion abilities, and the like (Ironguard, Greater Blink, Superior Invisibility, greater magic weapon/fang, etc etc).

There's more room for improvement, though.