A few quick Warlock questions...

[Eldritch_Ent]

I'm planning on playing a Warlock as my next DnD Character... Specifically, a human Warlock 6/Hellfire Warlock 3/Golden Ice Invoker 3. (Basically, a homebrewed "good" version of the HFW, although the bonus damages don't stack and using it drains CHA instead of CON.) However, I'm going to only use him if the campaign level hits 9, and go into the GII from there.

The basic character idea is he has a Hellish right arm, and a heavenly left arm- Both of which were forcibly grafted on. Good and Evil are having a battle over his soul. Of course, he has help from his Dog, Naberius. (Going to see if the GM will let me have the fast ability healing on the condition I can ONLY bind Naberius. This will cost a feat, of course) He'll also be a loner. A tough Clint Eastwood sphagetti-western type.

Now then, I'm putting his character sheet together and I'm wondering a few things...

1) Is Hellfire Blast an Arcane Essence, or can I use it with both a shape AND essence? As far as I can tell, it's the first, but...

2) Which level of Invocation is Eldritch Glaive? Least or Lesser?

3) Any feat suggestions to use with this guy? Preferably stuff involving fiendish and/or celestial heritage? If you'd please which books the feats are from, that would be great. Otherwise I'll probably just take Quicken/Maximize SLA and Precise Shot.

4) As for skills, Intimidate, Knowledge (The Planes) and Spellcraft are obvious for this build. But which will I need more- UMD or Concentration?

[The_Snark]

1) Is Hellfire Blast an Arcane Essence, or can I use it with both a shape AND essence? As far as I can tell, it's the first, but...

The text makes no mention of this being an eldritch essence, but it's probably best to get a ruling from your DM.

2) Which level of Invocation is Eldritch Glaive? Least or Lesser?

Least.

3) Any feat suggestions to use with this guy? Preferably stuff involving fiendish and/or celestial heritage? If you'd please which books the feats are from, that would be great. Otherwise I'll probably just take Quicken/Maximize SLA and Precise Shot.

The Planar Handbook has Celestial and Fiendish Heritage feats, and Complete Mage expands on the fiendish versions. Some of those are worthwhile.

4) As for skills, Intimidate, Knowledge (The Planes) and Spellcraft are obvious for this build. But which will I need more- UMD or Concentration?

You can go for both, really. My advice is to get your UMD skill to the point where you have a +10 modifier; since you have the warlock ability to take 10, that'll let you activate wands reliably. The rest of the points can go into Concentration—it should be enough to let you cast defensively when you need to.

And although you may have gotten this OK'ed with your DM already, Hellfire Warlock can't be entered until level 10; it requires 12 ranks in Knowledge (the planes).

[Eldritch_Ent]

And although you may have gotten this OK'ed with your DM already, Hellfire Warlock can't be entered until level 10; it requires 12 ranks in Knowledge (the planes).

Thank you for the advice! As for that, I'd gotten +3 to the skill from the Skill Focus feat. (Since it apparently works that way with this DM), but yeah, I really should double check it. At least I'd have to start at level 7 instead... Bah!

[Sstoopidtallkid]

You can go for both, really. My advice is to get your UMD skill to the point where you have a +10 modifier; since you have the warlock ability to take 10, that'll let you activate wands reliably. The rest of the points can go into Concentration—it should be enough to let you cast defensively when you need to.

You want UMD to be +15 after you add Cha. That way you can use a Night Hag Heartstone.

[Eldritch_Ent]

You want UMD to be +15 after you add Cha. That way you can use a Night Hag Heartstone.

What book is that from and what does it do?

Edit- Speaking of which, any other magic items you can reccomend for a Warlock, aside from Chaucibles of Fell Power and Cloaks of Charisma?

There any sort of "held in hands" items for Warlocks?

[Kyeudo]

Warlock's Scepter is the only thing like that that I know of.

[The_Snark]

Complete Mage has a few. The Rod of Magical Precision effectively gives you Precise Shot (plus the ability to reroll a couple blast attacks per day), and Rods of Eldritch Power are useful; they give you the ability to apply a specific eldritch essence or blast shape to your eldritch blast five times per day. Generally, if I didn't pick up Eldritch Spear or Eldritch Glaive as an acutal invocation, I get it in rod format; they're both useful on occasion, and the rods are cheap for least invocations (2,000 gp).

[LibraryOgre]

What book is that from and what does it do?

Monster Manual. It has 10 charges, and can cure any disease and adds a +2 to all saves. However, each time it does one or the other (cures a disease or adds +2 to a saving throw), you lose a charge.

Not as optimal as it could be.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

Monster Manual. It has 10 charges, and can cure any disease and adds a +2 to all saves. However, each time it does one or the other (cures a disease or adds +2 to a saving throw), you lose a charge.

Not as optimal as it could be.

Unless you're a Night Hag. And the DC to emulate a race is 25. Which you auto with a +15 mod. And then it gives cure any disease, +2 to saves, and ethrealness at-will for 1,800 GP. Unlimited uses. Always worth the skill ranks.

[CthulhuM]

Well, you could always use the gauntlets of the blood lord, though you'd have to take a feat and worship Hextor to do it. A +2 bonus on all attack roles with your eldritch glaive (and, when you hit level 11, having all of your eldritch glaive attacks empowered for free) would be pretty nice though.

[Eldritch_Ent]

Well, you could always use the gauntlets of the blood lord, though you'd have to take a feat and worship Hextor to do it. A +2 bonus on all attack roles with your eldritch glaive (and, when you hit level 11, having all of your eldritch glaive attacks empowered for free) would be pretty nice though.

Hmm. That could be handy, but it would kinda go against the character...

Unless he somehow worshipped Hextor AND Heironus. That could actually work out really well, and would not only go with his "good VS Evil" theme, but would also help explain how he got his powers. (Namely that thse two are fighting over his soul. Because they fight over EVERYTHING.)

Yesss. Interesting indeed...

[Chronos]

Unless you're a Night Hag. And the DC to emulate a race is 25. Which you auto with a +15 mod. And then it gives cure any disease, +2 to saves, and ethrealness at-will for 1,800 GP. Unlimited uses. Always worth the skill ranks.

OK, that's pretty slick. Good luck getting a DM to allow it, though.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

OK, that's pretty slick. Good luck getting a DM to allow it, though.

Okay, I realize how cheesy it is. But it's nowhere near as broken as a lot of the stuff I see, and it's only Warlock+core. Is there any questionable RAW there at all? I mean, if this was an Artificer, would anyone object? Their class is about finding items that are way too cheap for their price and using them. This is just going Joker on that.

Besides, you're a Warlock, you need the help. And who doesn't want a stacking +2 to all saves, even if it takes up your neck slot?

[Chronos]

Well, the easiest way for a DM to keep Heartstones out of the hands of the players would be to just not put them up against any Night Hags (who are the only ones who can make them). And it's still broken, even for non-warlocks: Anyone with +5 to UMD could just try repeatedly to emulate race, to get Etherealness at will out-of-combat (which is worth way more than 1800 GP).

Oh, and the bonus to saves isn't stacking. It's a resistance bonus, same as most other things that boost saves (like a Cloak of Resistance).

[Tokiko Mima]

1) Is Hellfire Blast an Arcane Essence, or can I use it with both a shape AND essence? As far as I can tell, it's the first, but...

It's neither an Essense or a Shape, honestly. You can apply an Eldritch Essense and a Blast Shape and still add Hellfire Blast damage to your attack. The downside is the Constitution loss, which happens twice as fast if you involve Quicken SLA.

3) Any feat suggestions to use with this guy? Preferably stuff involving fiendish and/or celestial heritage? If you'd please which books the feats are from, that would be great. Otherwise I'll probably just take Quicken/Maximize SLA and Precise Shot.

If your DM will allow it (and he seems awfully permissive) the Supernatural Transformation (Eldritch Blast) feat from Savage Species is essential for Warlocks. It makes your EB spell-like invocation into a supernatural ability. The chief benefit is that spell resistance doesn't apply to Su abilities. However, whether or not a warlock qualifies depends on how you define 'innate' and how you read the warlock fluff in the first place.

If you're taking any of the Warlock Flight powers, consider Fly-by Attack as an option. It doesn't matter how much attack bonus your enemy may have if you hide behind total cover, then fly out and use E.B., then drop back behind cover before the end of the same turn. Then you just have to worry about monsters smart enough to use Readied actions.

Precise Shot is a bit of a waste because it requires so many feats to get to, and you can gain all it's benefits with a Rod of Magical Precision in one hand.

FYI, I'm not sure there is a Maximize SLA Feat. Maybe you were thinking of Empower SLA?

[monty]

FYI, I'm not sure there is a Maximize SLA Feat. Maybe you were thinking of Empower SLA?

Complete Arcane, page 81.

[Tokiko Mima]

Complete Arcane, page 81.

Nice! I'm taking that as my next Feat then. 7d6 Eldritch + 2d6 from Greater Chausible + 10d6 Hellfire Empowered, Maximized and Quickened? From 8 attacks thanks to Quicken SLA + Eldritch Glaive + UMD/Divine Power? I think thats about 1368 HP damage total in a single round, and all you need is a melee touch attack to deliver it. Oh, and you could crit, too.

[Duke of URL]

Nice! I'm taking that as my next Feat then. 7d6 Eldritch + 2d6 from Greater Chausible + 10d6 Hellfire Empowered, Maximized and Quickened? From 8 attacks thanks to Quicken SLA + Eldritch Glaive + UMD/Divine Power? I think thats about 1368 HP damage total in a single round, and all you need is a melee touch attack to deliver it. Oh, and you could crit, too.

You can't maximize and quicken the same invocation, as far as I know.

[Tokiko Mima]

You can't maximize and quicken the same invocation, as far as I know.

That's odd. Of the three feats, only Quicken uses a swift action (it was reprinted in MM3) so applying all three seems RAW legal. So... why can't you (aside from the obvious 'doing a thousand plus damage in one round is probably broken' reason?)

[monty]

Wouldn't 8 hellfire blasts a round completely rape your Constitution, though? If you're fighting more than one enemy at a time, you'd go down pretty quickly.

[Tokiko Mima]

Wouldn't 8 hellfire blasts a round completely rape your Constitution, though? If you're fighting more than one enemy at a time, you'd go down pretty quickly.

It's only 2 points of Constitution and effectively your level in HP damage. One for your Quickened E.Glaive (4 attacks) and one for your Full-round action E.Glaive (4 attacks). Even if your DM houseruled a Con point for every attack, I don't imagine many things will survive a 1368 damage attack. Within two rounds, a Rod of Bodily Restoration can have 8 Con damage fully restored and you'll be ready to roll.

[Duke of URL]

Wouldn't 8 hellfire blasts a round completely rape your Constitution, though? If you're fighting more than one enemy at a time, you'd go down pretty quickly.

The CON damage is once per use of the invocation -- the Glaive is only invoked once, but lasts for all attacks until the start of your next turn. You get all of your iterative attacks plus any AoOs or otherwise granted attacks all with only once use of hte invocation, and hence one CON burn.

Pair it up with combat reflexes, maybe pick up the Thicket of Blades stance from ToB (feat intensive, I know), Rolibar's Gambit or Karmic Strike, and teammates with White Raven maneuvers that grant allies free extra attacks, and you can really go to town.

That's odd. Of the three feats, only Quicken uses a swift action (it was reprinted in MM3) so applying all three seems RAW legal. So... why can't you (aside from the obvious 'doing a thousand plus damage in one round is probably broken' reason?)

Aside from needing a minimum invoker level of 18th to apply both at the same time to an ESL 1 invocation, even if you do allow them to stack?

[monty]

Aside from needing a minimum invoker level of 18th to apply both at the same time to an ESL 1 invocation, even if you do allow them to stack?

Wouldn't you only need CL 10 for Quicken?

[Duke of URL]

Wouldn't you only need CL 10 for Quicken?

And a CL 8 for Maximize. Even if a DM would allow both to be used simultaneously (which I personally wouldn't allow), he'd be crazy not to force them to stack. For a regular spell, that's a +7 spell level adjustment, so you'd have to think at least CL 16 (treating a Warlock as a sorcerer) for a 1st level spell, and I think the extra +2 CL is justified since there's no increase in invoking time for applying the metamagic effects.

[monty]

And a CL 8 for Maximize. Even if a DM would allow both to be used simultaneously (which I personally wouldn't allow), he'd be crazy not to force them to stack. For a regular spell, that's a +7 spell level adjustment, so you'd have to think at least CL 16 (treating a Warlock as a sorcerer) for a 1st level spell, and I think the extra +2 CL is justified since there's no increase in invoking time for applying the metamagic effects.

Which is all up to the DM. By RAW, there is no ESL increase, and you can pile as much crap on it as you want as long as you have a high enough CL for the biggest one.

[Tokiko Mima]

Aside from needing a minimum invoker level of 18th to apply both at the same time to an ESL 1 invocation, even if you do allow them to stack?

Still not groking you on this. Aside from Caster/Invoker level being easy to raise if needed, what does that have to do with whether or not you can modify an SLA? All that's required is that you meet the requirements when you take the feat initially and be aware that some essense/blast invocations can raise your effective spell level to the point where it cannot be quickened, empowered and/or maximized at your invoker level. There's nothing there that says that, for example, a Quickened SLA is an +4 ESL spell.

The Maximize SLA feat itself says to apply maximize and empower seperately but doesn't mention Quicken. Where are you deriving needing an IL of 18 from? Sorry... not trying to be smarmy. This must be a warlock mechanic I've never heard of.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

The Maximize SLA feat itself says to apply maximize and empower seperately but doesn't mention Quicken. Where are you deriving needing an IL of 18 from? Sorry... not trying to be smarmy. This must be a warlock mechanic I've never heard of.

They're saying essentially that doing it any other way is bad for balance.
It's not RAW, but that's how they'd expect a sane DM to rule.

[Duke of URL]

I'm not going with RAW here, but rather common sense. Do you really think a warlock should have the metamagic equivalent of an 8th level spell at 10th level? That's insane.

If you will note, the net effect of the tables that accompany those feats basically make the level requirement the same as the minimum sorcerer level to cast the related metamgaic version of a spell with the same level as the ESL of the invocation. Stacking these SLAs together logically requires an equivalent increase in required invoker level.

The IL requirement for Maximize is (ESL * 2) + 6. For Quicken, it's (ESL * 2) + 8. Stacking them should be at least (ESL * 2) + 14.

[Tokiko Mima]

And a CL 8 for Maximize. Even if a DM would allow both to be used simultaneously (which I personally wouldn't allow), he'd be crazy not to force them to stack. For a regular spell, that's a +7 spell level adjustment, so you'd have to think at least CL 16 (treating a Warlock as a sorcerer) for a 1st level spell, and I think the extra +2 CL is justified since there's no increase in invoking time for applying the metamagic effects.

They aren't sorcerers, however. Sorcerers can spontaneously cast their spells, and modify them on the fly a limitless number of times a day and get to choose several from a huge list every level of new spells. Sorcerers count as casting n-th level spells for PrC and feat prerequisite purposes.

Warlocks get a new single new invocation every two or so levels. They are married to the ones they have absolutely (except for a limited trade in) and cast them as spell-like abilities, not spells. They don't act like spells, and so don't qualify for PrC/feat purposes.

Warlocks are even more specialized than Sorcerers, which you can see in the differences from Metamagic feats like Empower Spell > Sudden Empower > Empower SLA. All of them have the same basic effect but different flexibility and costs.

1. Empower Spell adds ESL + 2, and adds extra casting time for spontaneous casters. You can use it limitlessly on any spell in your repitore as long as you have spell slots.
2. Sudden Empower adds no ESL and no casting time, but is limited to 1 use a day. You can use it on any spell you possess, however.
3. Empower SLA adds no ESL and no casting time, and is limited to 3 uses a day. However, you can only apply it to a single SLA you choose when you take the Feat.

So, while it's easy to say that it's not fair that a warlock can launch a three metamagic feats applied SLAs that a sorcerer could not easily spontaneously cast, remember that that is their focused type of spellcasting. They get to use the SLA rules instead of the spell rules as part of their unique class.

A Sorcerer could easily launch a Sudden Empower + Sudden Maximize + Sudden Quicken Scorching Ray attack, could they not? (I mean, if it was possible for them to qualify for the insane prereq's Sudden Quicken has, anyway) Or they could add those on to a Meteor Swarm and the ESL would have been way off the charts. Shouldn't you need an epic CL to do that under this logic?

[Duke of URL]

A Sorcerer could easily launch a Sudden Empower + Sudden Maximize + Sudden Quicken Scorching Ray attack, could they not?

At the cost of seven feats, yes, they could. Once per day. Note that Sudden Quicken by itself requires the 7 feats, so let's just go back to the original example: Sudden Quicken + Sudden Maximize.

Sorcerer: Invest seven feats, can do it once per day
Warlock: Invest two feats, minimum IL 10, can do it three times per day

Does that look in any way balanced? Remember, my actual position is that as a DM, I wouldn't allow them to be stacked anyway. Even if I did allow it, upping the IL requirement to 16 or 18 still makes it more of a useful combo than the sorcerer's. (Who can do it once per day at level 15 at the earliest [excepting flaws] if he's human.)