guide to the Binder class

[quiet1mi]

I was looking through the Tome of magic and found the Binder class

I instantly fell in love for the many options available to it... however with very little knowledge of the class, I was wondering how to build a "proper" Binder

can anyone point me to a post or a forum that provides builds for binders...

[namo]

Handbook

Binders are very nice indeed.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

Handbook

Binders are very nice indeed.

For dips. As a full class, I was under the impression it left something to be desired...though that could just be me.

[RTGoodman]

For dips. As a full class, I was under the impression it left something to be desired...though that could just be me.

That's sort of how I feel about them, too. I think it's just that a Binder doesn't really have any definite role in a party. It can do all sorts of stuff, but not as well as "specialist" classes. It's sort of like the Factotum, though they at least have a definite role of skill-monkey.

[CASTLEMIKE]

I agree with Namo. Lots of good ideas in the Handbook.

[GryffonDurime]

If you play in such an enviornment, Epic Binders have some suitably shiny options for Epic Vestiges. I like Gaia, myself: Regeneration, a slew of useful abilities, and anyone who can hear me speak has to make a save vs Friendliness?

[ZekeArgo]

Binders are also great as the alternate side to a gestalt. Due to its dependence on CON you can honestly pair it with near any other class combo to good effect.

[expirement10K14]

For uber cheese-

Race-
Human or Strongheart Halfling

Classes-
Arcane Caster 1
Binder 1
Plus one more level of either.

Feats-
Race-Any Metamagic Feats
1-Improved Binding
3-Precocious Apprentice (Complete Arcane p. 181)

Cheese
You now have second level binding (improved binding) and second level arcane casting (precocious apprentice)- take 4 ranks in knowledge (the planes) and intimidate and you can take Anima Mage (ToM) at level 4 (two levels early), which improves Soul Binding and Arcane Casting.
At level thirteen you Bind and Cast at 11th level, twelve in one.


Binders are also one of the most diverse classes in the game, taking up almost any role (I would give the award to factotums and chameleons though).

[Chronos]

Feats-
Race-Any Metamagic Feats
1-Improved Binding
3-Precocious Apprentice (Complete Arcane p. 181)

You need to swap those, and the wizard level needs to come first. Precocious Apprentice is first-level only. And, of course, many DMs will not allow Precocious Apprentice for early PC access.

[quiet1mi]

isn't there something that counts your hit dice to prevent early entry into PRC classes

these usually include

• skill rank preq. (8 or more)
• BAB requirement (+5 or more)
• able to cast 3rd level spells
• base save of +5

[Dhavaer]

isn't there something that counts your hit dice to prevent early entry into PRC classes

these usually include

• skill rank preq. (8 or more)
• BAB requirement (+5 or more)
• able to cast 3rd level spells
• base save of +5

Yes, the Anima Mage requires 2nd level spells and vestiges, which would normally require level 6. Improved Binding and Precocious Apprentice get around these requirements.

[CASTLEMIKE]

Plus the Anima Mage only has skill level requirements of 4 not 8.

[quiet1mi]

ah ha I found it

Spell casting:the ability to cast 2nd level arcane spells

thus Precocious Apprentice does not qualify you for the PRC because you only get 1 spell, if you received the ability to cast more than one spell than by RAW it would be workable...

but because the class, By raw specifically ask for the ability to cast more than one 2nd level arcane spells the feat is not the golden ticket...

also to prevent the inevitable counter argument... by RAW this would also mean that a sorcerer would have to be 5th level to enter this class and a wizard could enter it at 3rd (bonus spell per day from intelligence), with the appropriate multi-classing to fulfill the other requirements of course...

but any-who this is not what this thread was made for... It was made to pool any knowledge of Binders [Tome of Magic] and how to optimize them //Guide player into them...

To recap: we have a link to a binder's guide and we have some interesting play options [gestalt]. Last but certainty not least we have some binder cheese and a potential argument for a dm against the cheese... personally, if there is nothing more to add that is not covered by the link provided. I will say mission accomplished good job fellow posters...

[llamamushroom]

At the risk of sounding hopelessly ignorant, what does 'gestalt' mean in this context?

[Dhavaer]

At the risk of sounding hopelessly ignorant, what does 'gestalt' mean in this context?

A variant rule that's basically 'taking two classes at once'. Rules are here.

[jcsw]

ah ha I found it



thus Precocious Apprentice does not qualify you for the PRC because you only get 1 spell, if you received the ability to cast more than one spell than by RAW it would be workable...

but because the class, By raw specifically ask for the ability to cast more than one 2nd level arcane spells the feat is not the golden ticket...

also to prevent the inevitable counter argument... by RAW this would also mean that a sorcerer would have to be 5th level to enter this class and a wizard could enter it at 3rd (bonus spell per day from intelligence), with the appropriate multi-classing to fulfill the other requirements of course...

but any-who this is not what this thread was made for... It was made to pool any knowledge of Binders [Tome of Magic] and how to optimize them //Guide player into them...

To recap: we have a link to a binder's guide and we have some interesting play options [gestalt]. Last but certainty not least we have some binder cheese and a potential argument for a dm against the cheese... personally, if there is nothing more to add that is not covered by the link provided. I will say mission accomplished good job fellow posters...

Technically, you can cast multiple spells... on different days... I mean, since we're being all technical here and all, why not go all the way.

[CASTLEMIKE]

Another interpretation is multiple spells by having an ability score of 14+ granting the PC a bonus casting of the spell. With Transparency granting the feat to psions who use PPs.

[wadledo]

Of course, if a DM would actually allow this, then I've got a Tarrasque PC I'd like to show you.

[Sinfire Titan]

ah ha I found it



thus Precocious Apprentice does not qualify you for the PRC because you only get 1 spell, if you received the ability to cast more than one spell than by RAW it would be workable...

but because the class, By raw specifically ask for the ability to cast more than one 2nd level arcane spells the feat is not the golden ticket...

also to prevent the inevitable counter argument... by RAW this would also mean that a sorcerer would have to be 5th level to enter this class and a wizard could enter it at 3rd (bonus spell per day from intelligence), with the appropriate multi-classing to fulfill the other requirements of course...

but any-who this is not what this thread was made for... It was made to pool any knowledge of Binders [Tome of Magic] and how to optimize them //Guide player into them...

To recap: we have a link to a binder's guide and we have some interesting play options [gestalt]. Last but certainty not least we have some binder cheese and a potential argument for a dm against the cheese... personally, if there is nothing more to add that is not covered by the link provided. I will say mission accomplished good job fellow posters...

Which is why you never use PA alone. You always add in Focused Specialist to get the 2nd level spells requirement.

Due to a loop hole in the wording of PA, a Focused Specialist Wizard with that feat loses the spell slot it grants and receives two spells of his specialty school in its place. Normally, you wouldn't be able to use that slot for anything but casting that one spell, but losing something is not using it, so fair play here. And due to the fact that you now have 2nd level spell slots that aren't granted by bonus spells, you can now cast them freely. And since they are not the slot created by PA, you don't have to make a caster level check to cast them. This is a loophole cause only by a literal interpretation of the English language, and one hell of a loophole.

[Ecalsneerg]

Of course, if a DM would actually allow this, then I've got a Tarrasque PC I'd like to show you.

You're honestly comparing early entry into a dual-progression class (underpowered at best without using Precocious Apparentice, although I'll admit Improved binding as well is just nasty) to the biggest, baddest monster in D&D?

[CASTLEMIKE]

It's breakable with another feat like Arcane Disciple.

The hard and fast PRC limit is minimum skill level which is basically fixed in stone. The easiest bar to any PRC. If WOTC truly didn't wish a PRC entered before a certain level they only need to apply the minimum skill level requirement. What we get is designers who are not aware of all the feats or publically state they were unaware of the exisitng feat or feats that facilitate early entry which is not what they ever intended. (IMO it happens to consistently and helps sell books).

[AKA_Bait]

I would just like to add about binders that as a DM who makes his own settings they are fantastic.

[Starbuck_II]

Which is why you never use PA alone. You always add in Focused Specialist to get the 2nd level spells requirement.

Wait, what is focused specialist?

[Sstoopidtallkid]

Wait, what is focused specialist?

Complete Mage. It allows you to give up an extra school, and in exchange you lose one casting from each spell level, and gain 2 castings from your specialized school. Usually not a great idea, but it has its uses.

[Sinfire Titan]

Complete Mage. It allows you to give up an extra school, and in exchange you lose one casting from each spell level, and gain 2 castings from your specialized school. Usually not a great idea, but it has its uses.

Its been proven to be worth it if you ban Evocation, Enchantment, and either Necromancy or Abjuration. You have to specialize in either Conjuration, Illusion, or Transmutation in order to get serious mileage out of it though.

[Eldariel]

You're honestly comparing early entry into a dual-progression class (underpowered at best without using Precocious Apparentice, although I'll admit Improved binding as well is just nasty) to the biggest, baddest monster in D&D?

Tarrasque is a friggin' toy level 10 Wizards break on their sparetime. The only real way to make it scary is to have a high level caster steal its body (something they also do in their sparetime), giving it full casting in addition to its decent physical qualities. It can't touch ethereals, incorporeals or even flyers. It's just...pitiful that the supposed one-of monster of divine punishment gets beaten by a fledgling mage tossing a variety of alchemical substances from air on it. Or a Warlock with Fell Flight + Vitriolic Blast.