[4e] Are there rules for having enemies with character classes?

[Mad Wizard]

My friend was trying to figure out a couple days ago whether there are rules for having enemies with PC classes. Specifically, what CR would they be, and how much XP are they worth?

[Nonah_Me]

There are: They're called templates, and they are in the DM's Toolbox section of the Dungeon Master's Guide.

However, I'm having a problem with monsters myself, in that I'm not quite sure how to go about increasing or decreasing a monster's level. It's probably because I just haven't sat down and done it yet.

[Tadanori Oyama]

The rules are in the DM's guide, I believe. Basically use the normal leveling rules to position them and then add a template for the player class. I might be thinking of the "creating NPCs with player levels" section, of course.

When I want to add a player class level to a monster I just pick an ability from the classes' power list of an appropriate level and add it to the monster then maybe add the elite template too.

[ninja_penguin]

The DM toolbox is pretty handy for that: All of the player classes are treated as being an Elite [Role], and the book doles out which type is which, along with what specific things you need to do. They remain the same level (remember to use your EXP budget thing. It makes things a lot easier for me, I could never understand CR well).

As for levels up or down, I think that's in the DM toolbox as well, and it is pretty simple. You just modify the HP, defenses, and attacks, and damage, with the caveat (I think) that monsters moved more then 5 levels in either direction may appear to be too powerful or too weak, due to their inherent powers. (this is easily fixed with class NPC enemies, as you can assign them level appropriate powers, but not so much with things like slimes etc., that have unique abilities.)

[Morty]

There are "class templates" in DMG which give the monster few class' powers and make it an Elite monster.
You can also simply make an NPC, for which there are also rules in DMG. Such NPCs are treated as monsters of their level, I think.

[AKA_Bait]

You can also simply make an NPC, for which there are also rules in DMG. Such NPCs are treated as monsters of their level, I think.

That's correct. They are pretty much in all ways treated as monsters, they are just made with a stripped down version of the PC creation rules.

[Mad Wizard]

This is exactly what I was looking for. Thanks everyone.

[Dausuul]

However, I'm having a problem with monsters myself, in that I'm not quite sure how to go about increasing or decreasing a monster's level. It's probably because I just haven't sat down and done it yet.

It's really easy. Without posting exact details, it's simple enough that you can do it on the fly in the middle of combat. You apply a flat modifier to all of the monster's attack bonuses and defenses, another modifier to its damage rolls, and a third modifier to its hit point total, and that's it. And calculating those modifiers is very, very simple.

[Tsotha-lanti]

My friend was trying to figure out a couple days ago whether there are rules for having enemies with PC classes. Specifically, what CR would they be, and how much XP are they worth?

CR?

Everything is the level it is. That's the beauty of creating creatures and monsters and NPCs in 4E - you start with the level, and all other stats and abilities follow from that.


And to add to what Dausuul said: look up page 184 in the DMG for hit points. (And creating monsters in general). For every even level reached by the creature, you add +1 to attacks and defenses - so if you raise a level 6 or a level 7 monster to level 8, you add 1 to all attacks, defenses, skills, and ability score bonuses (from which the others are derived anyway), and usually 8 or 16 hit points. Technically, if you break the paragon/epic treshold, you should be adding a power or something, but that doesn't really matter. If you want to get really detailed, you might need to raise the ability scores and attack damage, but that's sort of optional. (Still, refer to page 184 again.)

[Nonah_Me]

I got it last night. Fixed up some monsters for my newly paragon tier PC freinds in a jiffy.

I do have another concern, though. I was making ghost badguys, but there is no ghost template like they have with some others. I used a couple of the normal ghosts (just changed them into dwarves) but there was no ghost brute/soldier.

So I took a Dwarven Hammerer and gave him the Bodyguard Template (making him an elite level 5) and then gave him Ghost properties, i.e. insubstantial, immune to disease and poison, and a fly speed of 5 with phasing.

What level would this guy be? I didn't up his stats because I wasn't sure about how powerful insubstantial as a property was going to be.

In any case, I'm running it Friday against four PCs (an all goblinoid party woo!) and we'll see how it goes.

[Dausuul]

I got it last night. Fixed up some monsters for my newly paragon tier PC freinds in a jiffy.

I do have another concern, though. I was making ghost badguys, but there is no ghost template like they have with some others. I used a couple of the normal ghosts (just changed them into dwarves) but there was no ghost brute/soldier.

So I took a Dwarven Hammerer and gave him the Bodyguard Template (making him an elite level 5) and then gave him Ghost properties, i.e. insubstantial, immune to disease and poison, and a fly speed of 5 with phasing.

What level would this guy be? I didn't up his stats because I wasn't sure about how powerful insubstantial as a property was going to be.

In any case, I'm running it Friday against four PCs (an all goblinoid party woo!) and we'll see how it goes.

Oh, insubstantial is the easiest thing in the world to balance. Here's how you do it:

#1. Chop the monster's hit points in half.
#2. Make the monster insubstantial.
#3. Leave its level as is.

And to add to what Dausuul said: look up page 184 in the DMG for hit points. (And creating monsters in general). For every even level reached by the creature, you add +1 to attacks and defenses - so if you raise a level 6 or a level 7 monster to level 8, you add 1 to all attacks, defenses, skills, and ability score bonuses (from which the others are derived anyway), and usually 8 or 16 hit points.

Actually, it's per level, not every even level. If you take a monster from level 6 to level 7, it gets +1 to all attacks and defenses. (PCs advance only at even levels, but they get stat boosts and magic items to make up the difference.)

The rule for increasing a monster's level by X is:
+X to all attacks and defenses.
+X/2 to damage rolls, skills, and ability modifiers.
+X times [6 to 10 depending on role] to hit points.

Decreasing level works the same way, but with a negative value for X.