[4E] Brutal Weapon Property

[Gralamin]

In the newest preview, the Brutal Weapon Property is introduced, along with a weapon.

Brutal: A brutal weapon’s minimum damage is higher than that of a normal weapon. When rolling the weapon’s damage, reroll any die that displays a value equal to or lower than the brutal value given for the weapon. Reroll the die until the value shown exceeds the weapon’s brutal value, and then use the new value.

For example, the execution axe has a property of brutal 2. If a fighter wielding this weapon hits with steel serpent strike (a 2[W] power), the player rolls 2d12 for the weapon damage, rerolling a die result of 1 or 2 until the die shows 3 or higher.

What does this mean? Gauntlets of Destruction, and item that costs 85,000 gp is equivalent (but a tiny bit better) to brutal 1. The key wording is

Reroll the die until the value shown exceeds the weapon’s brutal value, and then use the new value.

Which means if you had a Brutal 1 item, it more or less would say

Reroll all dice for the weapon's damage that are 1's until they show something other then 1.

So, weapons with brutal are gonna cost a lot right? Wrong.

{table="head"]Weapon|Prof.|Damage|Range|Price|Weight|Group|Properties
Execution axe|+2|d12|—|30 gp|14 lb.|Axe|Brutal 2, high crit[/table]

So for 30 gp, you can get a weapon with an inbuilt ability better then the 85,000 gp item. 30 gp is also the cost of a normal great axe.

So whats the difference between a Brutal 1 weapon, and Gauntlets of Destruction

• Gauntlets of Destruction will reroll all damage thats a 1, such as extra damage due to magical enhancements
• Brutal weapons only reroll if the [W] term is used.

Anyone else see a balance problem here? I mean sure, Brutal is a bit weaker, but not all that much.

Consider if the execution axe was made large (for a race with the oversized trait), it would be 2d6 damage, but be between 4 and 12 damage. (With a number of results removed).
Now what if its Vorpal, and you have gauntlets of destruction for the extra crit damage?
Running a million iterations, In a program, I found the following results

Average Damage (1[W]) on a Crit: ~100.958
Average Damage (1[W]) on a hit: ~18.0015

This seems exceedingly powerful to me, or am I wrong?

[Tadanori Oyama]

With a Brutal Vorpal oversized Axe on a Critical? No, I'd say that's right.

[Jack_of_Spades]

Yeah, it seems really strong, and I'm wondering if there's something to balance it out. If all weapons with it were superior, for example. I'm wondering if something similar to keen will show up along with Alchemist's fire.

[fractic]

Well in 4E you can't have multiple weapon properties (at least not yet) so no vorpal brutal 3 daggers or something. Even if they would later introduce rules they would probably increase the item level and vorpal is allready lvl 30. The guantlets stack with other weapon properties on the other hand.

[Tadanori Oyama]

Vorpal is a magical weapon type (like flamebursting or frost) that applies to Axes and Heavy blades , brutal is a weapon property (like light thrown or off-hand).

So you can have a Vorpal Execution Axe.

[Dark Tira]

Consider if the execution axe was made large (for a race with the oversized trait), it would be 2d6 damage, but be between 4 and 12 damage. (With a number of results removed).

Actually brutal 2 rerolls any 1s and 2s so an oversized Execution Axe deals 6-12 damage.
I don't think it's overpowered since it's likely a superior 2-handed weapon and I think 2-handed weapons needed a bit of a bump anyway.

[ArmorArmadillo]

Well, I'm confused by the term weapon damage. So, does that mean each individual weapon die, or the weapon as a whole.

So, would a brutal 2 weapon with 2d6 base damage only reroll snake-eyes?

[Tadanori Oyama]

I also just noticed a bit of a problem. You have 1[W] there but everything at Epic (Vorpal is a L.30 weapon, so it shouldn't (according the DMG treasure parcel charts) be in the hands of a PC below 26th level) is 2[W] so the average is actually quite a bit higher.

[CthulhuM]

In any event, I'm certain the balance on this axe in particular is that it's a superior weapon. Honestly, it'll be nice to have some weapons that are actually worth taking a feat to use for a change.

[Dark Tira]

Well, I'm confused by the term weapon damage. So, does that mean each individual weapon die, or the weapon as a whole.

So, would a brutal 2 weapon with 2d6 base damage only reroll snake-eyes?

Nope, rerolls the individual die. So on a 6 and a 1 you'd reroll the 1 until you got a 3 or better.

[fractic]

Some math:

Brutal n adds 1/2*n per die damage to a [W]. e.g. a normal 1d12 weapon does 6.5 damage per [W] on average while a brutal 2 1d12 weapon does 7.5 per [W]. Effectively this is the same as 1d10+2.

Vorpal is more effective on smaller dies. A vorpal weapon that does a dx damage normally does now (x+1)/2 *x/(x-1) damage on average. So a vorpal weapon that does 2d6 damage normally will now do 7*6/5 = 8.4 damage on average. A vorpal 1d12 brutal 2 weapon will do 7.5*10/9 = 8.33333.

So really it's not that impressive as long as it stays on weapons with big damage dies.

[Gralamin]

Actually brutal 2 rerolls any 1s and 2s so an oversized Execution Axe deals 6-12 damage.

Oops, stupid error, thanks for catching it.

I don't think it's overpowered since it's likely a superior 2-handed weapon and I think 2-handed weapons needed a bit of a bump anyway.

Well, We don't know all that much about it, but it still is Rather powerful.

Well, I'm confused by the term weapon damage. So, does that mean each individual weapon die, or the weapon as a whole.

So, would a brutal 2 weapon with 2d6 base damage only reroll snake-eyes?

According to the description

reroll any die that displays a value equal to or lower than the brutal value given for the weapon. Reroll the die until the value shown exceeds the weapon’s brutal value, and then use the new value.

So if your rolling two dice, each die you reroll if its 2 or below in this case.

I also just noticed a bit of a problem. You have 1[W] there but everything at Epic (Vorpal is a L.30 weapon, so it shouldn't (according the DMG treasure parcel charts) be in the hands of a PC below 26th level) is 2[W] so the average is actually quite a bit higher.

Yes, I just coded the program to work with 1[W]. Due to the rerolling nature, I doubt multiplying by two would give you the correct normal damage.

In any event, I'm certain the balance on this axe in particular is that it's a superior weapon. Honestly, it'll be nice to have some weapons that are actually worth taking a feat to use for a change.

You think 1 Feat is enough to make this balanced? When you have 18 feats in total?

Edit:

Some math:

Brutal n adds 1/2*n per die damage to a [W]. e.g. a normal 1d12 weapon does 6.5 damage per [W] on average while a brutal 2 1d12 weapon does 7.5 per [W]. Effectively this is the same as 1d10+2.

Vorpal is more effective on smaller dies. A vorpal weapon that does a dx damage normally does now (x+1)/2 *x/(x-1) damage on average. So a vorpal weapon that does 2d6 damage normally will now do 7*6/5 = 8.4 damage on average. A vorpal 1d12 brutal 2 weapon will do 7.5*10/9 = 8.33333.

Running through my program adapted for Brutal, normal weapon damage, over a million iterations, I find that the average damage of a Vorpal 1d12 brutal 2 weapon is actually 14.3231, which is quite above your exceptions. Perhaps you should double check your maths, I think your undervaluing Vorpal. (And while you do that, I'll double check my code )

Edit2: Your forgetting to account for Vorpal's Enhancement bonus. So you should add 6 to that.

So really it's not that impressive as long as it stays on weapons with big damage dies.

But following the rules can let you get a smaller damage die.

[fractic]

Running through my program adapted for Brutal, normal weapon damage, over a million iterations, I find that the average damage of a Vorpal 1d12 brutal 2 weapon is actually 14.3231, which is quite above your exceptions. Perhaps you should double check your maths, I think your undervaluing Vorpal.

Here is the computation in more detail.

Rerolling until you get a 3 or higher gives you an average result of (3+12)/2 = 7.5.

One out of 10 times you will have rolled a 12 the first time you didn't roll a 1 or a 2. So one of of 10 times you will get to roll again thanks to vorpal. We are now at 7.5 +1/10*7.5 average damage.

Again you have a 10% chance of rolling a 12 after brutal is done. So we get
7.5+1/10*7.5+1/100*7.5.

This continues on forever. This gives a total damage result of
7.5* (1+1/10+1/100+...) = 7.5*10/9 = 8.33333 damage per [W]. I use the formula for geometric sequences here (see here for details).

Once you know the damage for 1[W] then you can just multiply by the number in front of the [W] because it's all independant.

[Edit after seeing edit 2 above on gralamins post]

You are right I didn't include the +6 from the enhancement as it doesn't count for the [W]. A 6[W] + mod power with a vorpal brutal 2 1d12 weapon will do 6*8.333 +6 + mod damage.

[Edge of Dreams]

Aside from the vorpal combo-ness, a brutal 1 or 2 superior weapon is not that big a deal (although it does make it strictly better in terms of damage to every other superior weapon with less than +3 prof. bonus). What bothers me is the comparison to Gauntlets of Destruction. Either brutal should have a drawback or massively higher price, or Gauntlets of Destruction should be way way cheaper.

[RukiTanuki]

But following the rules can let you get a smaller damage die.

Thing is, it's an inherent trait of a particular weapon. You can't add it to a different, existing weapon any more than you can make a 3e axe crit on an 18-20 just because a rapier has that property.

[Tadanori Oyama]

I'm kinda curious what they intend it to be used for. I mean, it's only use is adding more damage, right? That's a striker function, by and large, but a two-handed military (or superior) weapon is likely to find it's way into the hands of way more Fighters and Paladins than Rogues. Warlocks and Rangers don't really have a reason to go near the thing. Clerics need the free hand for their holy symbol unless they go 100% war cleric (same with Paladins for most of the game). I suppose a warlord could use it to increase damage output.

And you can get lower dice sizes to increase the rerolls but the options for a big weapon are limited. Right now the only playable race I know of that could use one is a minotaur.

[Gralamin]

Here is the computation in more detail.

Rerolling until you get a 3 or higher gives you an average result of (3+12)/2 = 7.5.

One out of 10 times you will have rolled a 12 the first time you didn't roll a 1 or a 2. So one of of 10 times you will get to roll again thanks to vorpal. We are now at 7.5 +1/10*7.5 average damage.

Again you have a 10% chance of rolling a 12 after brutal is done. So we get
7.5+1/10*7.5+1/100*7.5.

This continues on forever. This gives a total damage result of
7.5* (1+1/10+1/100+...) = 7.5*10/9 = 8.33333 damage per [W]. I use the formula for geometric sequences here (see here for details).

Once you know the damage for 1[W] then you can just multiply by the number in front of the [W] because it's all independant.

[Edit after seeing edit 2 above on gralamins post]

You are right I didn't include the +6 from the enhancement as it doesn't count for the [W]. A 6[W] + mod power with a vorpal brutal 2 1d12 weapon will do 6*8.333 +6 + mod damage.

I'm pretty sure when I finish writing up my updated code, it'll confirm with your calculations then

Aside from the vorpal combo-ness, a brutal 1 or 2 superior weapon is not that big a deal (although it does make it strictly better in terms of damage to every other superior weapon with less than +3 prof. bonus). What bothers me is the comparison to Gauntlets of Destruction. Either brutal should have a drawback or massively higher price, or Gauntlets of Destruction should be way way cheaper.

Yes, Brutal is only a small bit worse then Gauntlets of Destruction.

Thing is, it's an inherent trait of a particular weapon. You can't add it to a different, existing weapon any more than you can make a 3e axe crit on an 18-20 just because a rapier has that property.

I don't see how this is relevant. You can get smaller dice by taking a weapon with a high damage die, and making it one size larger.

I'm kinda curious what they intend it to be used for. I mean, it's only use is adding more damage, right? That's a striker function, by and large, but a two-handed military (or superior) weapon is likely to find it's way into the hands of way more Fighters and Paladins than Rogues. Warlocks and Rangers don't really have a reason to go near the thing. Clerics need the free hand for their holy symbol unless they go 100% war cleric (same with Paladins for most of the game). I suppose a warlord could use it to increase damage output.

And you can get lower dice sizes to increase the rerolls but the options for a big weapon are limited. Right now the only playable race I know of that could use one is a minotaur.

Warlords don't need the damage, its not there job (They want to hit).
Minotaurs and Bugbears currently. That may change though as more books come out.

Edit: New code includes the fact that high crit damage is weapon damage, and thus subject to Brutal. Updated statistics coming.

[Blackdrop]

I'm kinda curious what they intend it to be used for. I mean, it's only use is adding more damage, right? That's a striker function, by and large, but a two-handed military (or superior) weapon is likely to find it's way into the hands of way more Fighters and Paladins than Rogues. Warlocks and Rangers don't really have a reason to go near the thing. Clerics need the free hand for their holy symbol unless they go 100% war cleric (same with Paladins for most of the game). I suppose a warlord could use it to increase damage output.

Except for the fact that a fighter can be a better striker then a rogue, and a Strength based Paladin can greatly benefit from a Holy Avenger Executioners Axe. Also, as far as I know, clerics just need to be wearing their holy symbol to use their powers.

[Tadanori Oyama]

Warlords don't need the damage, its not there job (They want to hit).
Minotaurs and Bugbears currently. That may change though as more books come out.

Fighter's don't either, not their job. The only function I can see of this is to make Fighters, Warlords, Paladins, and Clerics bleed into the Striker position for groups that need more damage output or that flat out lack a Striker.

Also, as far as I know, clerics just need to be wearing their holy symbol to use their powers.

They have to be weilding it in order to gain it's benifits. According the rules using an impliment (for any class) counts as attacking.

Your right, by the way, I forgot about Holy Avenger being able to apply to Axes and Hammers.

[fractic]

Edit: New code includes the fact that high crit damage is weapon damage, and thus subject to Brutal. Updated statistics coming.

Nice catch high crit is indeed affected by brutal. Calculating the damage is easy since high crit simply adds a number of [W] and we allready know that value.

[Gralamin]

Except for the fact that a fighter can be a better striker then a rogue, and a Strength based Paladin can greatly benefit from a Holy Avenger Executioners Axe. Also, as far as I know, clerics just need to be wearing their holy symbol to use their powers.

Fighters are secondary Strikers, so its probably for them, in all likelihood. Paladin's are secondary Leaders, so it helps them, just not as much.

Nice catch high crit is indeed affected by brutal. Calculating the damage is easy since high crit simply adds a number of [W] and we allready know that value.

Well then, you should be able to easily tell me if these are expected values

Medium Execution Axe
(Using 1[W])
Normal Damage on a hit: 14.3302
Critical Damage on a hit: 89.2040

(Using 2[W])
Normal Damage on a hit: 23.1004
Critical Damage on a hit: 107.207

(Using 3[W])
Normal Damage on a hit: 31.0045
Critical Damage on a hit: 125.200

Large Execution Axe
(Using 1[W])
Normal Damage on a hit: 18.0064
Critical Damage on a hit: 115.501

(Using 2[W])
Normal Damage on a hit: 30.0095
Critical Damage on a hit: 118.21

(Using 3[W])
Normal Damage on a hit: 42.0021
Critical Damage on a hit: 136.183

Edit: Code in spoiler below, written in C++

Spoiler

Show

//Assumptions: Vorpal Brutal Weapon, and Gauntlets of Destruction
#include <iostream>
#include <cstdlib>
#include <ctime>
#include <fstream>
#include <vector>

using namespace std;

//Function Wise, we need a random function, and a damage function, as well as a brutal Damage function.
//Damage will keep looping calls to Rand and adding them, or ignoring them if they are a 1.
//DamageBrutal will do the same thing as Damage, but will do it for more possible values
//Each function requires 2 integers, each one returns an integer. Damage Brutal needs brutal value as well
int randI(int, int); // Min/Max respsectivly
int Damage(int, int); //XdY
int DamageBrutal(int, int, int); //XdY, Brutal Z

int main()
{
    //Okay, What will we need
    //Random Numbers
    srand((unsigned)time(0));
    
    //Some Constants to store the Die Size and Number of Dice for stuff that doesn't change.
    const int VorpalCritSize = 12; // Vorpal doesn't change
    const int VorpalCritNum = 6; // 6d12
    const int VorpalEnhance = 6; // Enhancement bonus
    const int DailySize = 12; // Daily Doesn't change
    const int DailyNum = 3; // 3d12
    const int iter = 1000000; // Always 1 million iterations

    //Some Variables
    int HighCritSize = 0, HighCritNum = 0; //HighCritNum d HighCritSize
    bool HighCrit = false; // Does it have high crit?
    int NormalCritDamage = 0; //Equal to NormalSize * NormalNum + VorpalEnhance
    int NormalSize = 0, NormalNum = 0; // NormalNum d NormalSize
    int temp = 0; // Used for various things
    unsigned int sum = 0; //Used for various things
    int BrutalAmount = 0; //Used to store Brutal amount
    bool Brutal; //makes it easier later.
    int Wnum = 0; //Store X[W], where X is Wnum.

    //Variables to display Averages
    double normAVG;
    double critAVG;
    double dailyAVG;
    double totalAVG;

    //Some Vectors to store results
    vector<int> Crit;
    vector<int> Daily;
    vector<int> Normal;
    
    //Well, were outputting somewhere
    ofstream output;

    //===================Set Up Done====================
    while (1)
    {
          system("CLS");
          temp = 0;
          cout << "=================================\n";
          cout << "Enter Number of Dice:\n>";
          cin >> NormalNum;
          cin.ignore();
          
          cout << "Enter Die Size:\n>";
          cin >> NormalSize;
          cin.ignore();
          
          cout << "Does weapon have high crit? (1 = Yes, 0 = No)\n>";
          cin >> temp;
          cin.ignore();

          cout << "Enter Brutal amount (if it doesn't have Brutal, input 0)\n>";
          cin >> BrutalAmount;
          cin.ignore();

          cout << "Enter Number of [W]\n>";
          cin >> Wnum;
          cin.ignore();

          //======================================================
          cout << "\nNow calculating starting values...";
          HighCrit = (temp==1) ? true : false;
          NormalCritDamage = NormalSize*NormalNum + VorpalEnhance;
          HighCritSize = NormalSize;
          HighCritNum = NormalNum * 3;
          Brutal = (BrutalAmount!=0) ? true: false;

          //======================================================
          cout << "\nNow Calculating Average Crit Damage based on " << iter << " iterations.\n\n";
          //Crits are 6d12+NormalCritDamage+3[W] (If its High crit, else drop the 3[W])
          for (int i = 0; i < iter; i++)
          {
              //Calculate Vorpal damage
              temp += Damage(VorpalCritNum, VorpalCritSize);
              //Normal Crit Damage
              temp += NormalCritDamage * Wnum;
              
              //High Crit Damage, Is technically Brutal
              if (HighCrit)
              {
                  if (Brutal){temp += DamageBrutal(HighCritNum, HighCritSize, BrutalAmount);}
                  else {temp += Damage(HighCritNum, HighCritSize);}
              }
              
              Crit.push_back(temp);
              temp = 0;
          }

          //Sum /average
          for (vector<int>::iterator it = Crit.begin(); it!=Crit.end(); ++it)
          {
              sum += *it;
          }
          critAVG = (double(sum))/(double(iter));
          cout << "critAVG: " << critAVG << "\n\n";
          
          sum = 0;
          Crit.clear();
          
          //======================================================
          cout << "\nNow Calculating Average Normal Damage based on " << iter << " iterations.\n\n";
          
          //Normal damage is (NormalNum)d(NormalSize)+(VorpalEnhance)
          for (int i = 0; i < iter; i++)
          {
              //Calculate Normal damage
              temp += VorpalEnhance;
              for (int j = 0; j < Wnum; j++)
              {
                   if (Brutal){temp += DamageBrutal(NormalNum, NormalSize, BrutalAmount);}
                   else {temp += Damage(NormalNum,NormalSize);}
              }
              Normal.push_back(temp);
              temp = 0;
          }

          //Sum /average
          for (vector<int>::iterator it = Normal.begin(); it!=Normal.end(); ++it)
          {
              sum += *it;
          }
          normAVG = (double(sum))/(double(iter));
          cout << "normAVG: " << normAVG << "\n\n";

          
          sum = 0;
          Normal.clear();
          
          //======================================================
          cout << "\nNow Calculating Average Daily Damage based on " << iter << " iterations.\n\n";
          //Normal damage is 3d12
          for (int i = 0; i < iter; i++)
          {
              //Calculate Normal damage
              temp += Damage(DailyNum, DailySize);
              Daily.push_back(temp);
              temp = 0;
          }

          //Sum /average
          for (vector<int>::iterator it = Daily.begin(); it!=Daily.end(); ++it)
          {
              sum += *it;
          }
          dailyAVG = (double(sum))/(double(iter));
          cout << "dailyAVG: " << dailyAVG << "\n\n";

          sum = 0;
          Daily.clear();
          
          //===========================================
          output.open("Damage.txt", ios::out | ios::app);
          output << "========================================\n";
                    
          cout << "Daily Average:\t\t" << dailyAVG << "\n";
          output << "Daily Average: " << dailyAVG << "\n\n";
          output << NormalNum << "d" << NormalSize;
          if (HighCrit) {output << " with High Crit";}
          if (Brutal) {output << " with Brutal " << BrutalAmount;}
          output << endl;
          output << "========================================\n";
          cout << "Normal Average:\t\t" << normAVG << "\n";
          output << "Normal Average:\t\t" << normAVG << "\n";
          cout << "Critical Average:\t" << critAVG << "\n";
          output << "Critical Average:\t" << critAVG << "\n\n";
          
          output.close();
          system("PAUSE");
          
          //===========================================
    }
    
    system("PAUSE");
    return 0;
}

int randI(int low, int high)
{
    high += 1;
    low -= 1;
    int random;
    int range = (high - low) + 1;
    
    do {
        random = (rand() % high) + low;
    } while (random >= high || random <= low);
    
    return random;
}

int Damage(int Dice, int Size)
{
    int dmg = 0;
    int temp;
    // All calls to randI take the form randI(1, Size);
    for (int i = 0; i < Dice; i++)
    {
        temp = randI(1, Size);
        if (temp != 1){dmg+=temp;}
        if (temp == 1 || temp == Size) {Dice++;} // If its 1, Reroll. If its Temp
    }
    return dmg;
}

int DamageBrutal(int Dice, int Size, int Brutal)
{
    int dmg = 0;
    int temp;
    // All calls to randI take the form randI(1, Size);
    for (int i = 0; i < Dice; i++)
    {
        temp = randI(1, Size);
        if (temp >= (1+Brutal)){dmg+=temp;}
        if (temp <= Brutal || temp == Size) {Dice++;} // If its in Brutal, Reroll
        //If the damage is max, add and reroll.
    }
    return dmg;
}

edit: Wasn't clearing the daily vector. Whoops.

[Covered In Bees]

A Fighter can be a better Striker than a rogue? Somehow, I'm skeptical. Fighters can dish out a lot of damage, but rogues just plain do more--and impose more conditions, too.

[tbarrie]

Unless I'm missing something, a 1d12 weapon with brutal 2 is exactly the same as a normal weapon whose damage die is 1d10+2, escept the former could require a lot more rolling. How is that a good idea? I thought one of the design goals of 4E was (quite rightly) to reduce the number of rolls needed per combat round.

[fractic]

Well then, you should be able to easily tell me if these are expected values


Critical Damage on a hit: 136.183

Here ya go

In the following formulas x is the tier we are playing at. x=1 for heroic 2 for paragon and 3 for epic. This is needed for the high crit since it deals an extra x[W] damage on a crit

Medium +6 Vorpal Execution Axe
a n[W]+mod power will do
n*8.333+6+mod damage on average on a normal hit and
n*12+6+x*8.3333+6*6.5+mod damage on average on a critical hit

Large +6 Vorpal Execution Axe
This thing is seriously deadly since it's effectively a 2d4+4 weapon which means that with vorpal it will do 9*4/3 =12 damage per [W] on average.
So a n[W]+mod power will do
n*12+6+ mod damage on average on a normal hit and
n*12+6+x*12+6*6.5+mod damage on average on a critical hit.


Note that it does 12 damage on average normally and also 12 when automatically maximised by a critical. Since a critical deals maximum damage you can't actually reroll that with vorpal.

[Starbuck_II]

Fighters are secondary Strikers, so its probably for them, in all likelihood. Paladin's are secondary Leaders, so it helps them, just not as much.



Well then, you should be able to easily tell me if these are expected values

Medium Execution Axe
(Using 1[W])
Normal Damage on a hit: 14.3302
Critical Damage on a hit: 89.2040

(Using 2[W])
Normal Damage on a hit: 23.1004
Critical Damage on a hit: 107.207

(Using 3[W])
Normal Damage on a hit: 31.0045
Critical Damage on a hit: 125.200

For those not versed in computer language. Can you explain why 89 damage on a Crit with 1[W] damage.

I mean, at level 1, you deal 12 + 1d12 (rerolling 1 or 2). So 22%+ chance rerolling or so. But you only add the damage once if hits 3 or higher. So the most you should deal is 15-24 damage + Str, etc.

Why does it read 89?

[fractic]

For those not versed in computer language. Can you explain why 89 damage on a Crit with 1[W] damage.

I mean, at level 1, you deal 12 + 1d12 (rerolling 1 or 2). So 22%+ chance rerolling or so. But you only add the damage once if hits 3 or higher. So the most you should deal is 15-24 damage + Str, etc.

Why does it read 89?

Assuming epic tier since it's a +6 weapon. The damage is composed of

• the 1[W] damage which gets maximised to 12
• 6 damage from +6 enchantment
• 3*8.333 from the extra 3[W] from high crit for 25
• 6*1d12 from the vorpal critical boost for an average of 6*6.5 =39

which sums up to 82 + other modifiers.

I suspect that he got 89 because the variance is rather high (lots of d12) but I didn't check his code to see how much tests he ran.

[Gralamin]

Here ya go

In the following formulas x is the tier we are playing at. x=1 for heroic 2 for paragon and 3 for epic. This is needed for the high crit since it deals an extra x[W] damage on a crit

Medium +6 Vorpal Execution Axe
a n[W]+mod power will do
n*8.333+6+mod damage on average on a normal hit and
n*12+6+x*8.3333+6*6.5+mod damage on average on a critical hit

Large +6 Vorpal Execution Axe
This thing is seriously deadly since it's effectively a 2d4+4 weapon which means that with vorpal it will do 9*4/3 =12 damage per [W] on average.
So a n[W]+mod power will do
n*12+6+ mod damage on average on a normal hit and
n*12+6+x*12+6*6.5+mod damage on average on a critical hit.


Note that it does 12 damage on average normally and also 12 when automatically maximised by a critical. Since a critical deals maximum damage you can't actually reroll that with vorpal.

Which I don't in my program
And looking at the formula, it seems to match up (more or less, due to problems with arithmetic with double's and experimental error), so either were both making a mistake, or this stuff is right.

For those not versed in computer language. Can you explain why 89 damage on a Crit with 1[W] damage.

I mean, at level 1, you deal 12 + 1d12 (rerolling 1 or 2). So 22%+ chance rerolling or so. But you only add the damage once if hits 3 or higher. So the most you should deal is 15-24 damage + Str, etc.

Why does it read 89?

Because with Vorpal it works like this
On a 1[W], you deal an automatic 18 damage (12 as the max damage, 6 aqs the enhancement). From there, you deal another 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, or 12 damage. If it rolls a 12, you reroll, and add another 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, or 12. Once again if it rolls a 12, you reroll, and on and on. You also roll for high crit thrice, and you roll for Vorpal 6 times, with results of 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12. If 12 reroll and add...
Because of this high variance, you get damages as low as 21, and as high as a few hundred. The average of all the results is 89.

Edit:

Assuming epic tier since it's a +6 weapon. The damage is composed of

• the 1[W] damage which gets maximised to 12
• 6 damage from +6 enchantment
• 3*8.333 from the extra 3[W] from high crit for 25
• 6*1d12 from the vorpal critical boost for an average of 6*6.5 =39

which sums up to 82 + other modifiers.

I suspect that he got 89 because the variance is rather high (lots of d12) but I didn't check his code to see how much tests he ran.

One million tests.

[fractic]

Which I don't in my program

I'm sorry but what exactly is this reffering too?

[Gralamin]

I'm sorry but what exactly is this reffering too?

Sorry that's to this bit.

Since a critical deals maximum damage you can't actually reroll that with vorpal.

[fractic]

That's just cheating you don't get to reroll that! It adds an extra n[W] damage to all computations.