Monk

[Demons_eye]

I was reading a few monk threads and got to looking into the class more (I have played it but never have finshed to level 20). The monk hase an instakill (Quivering palm) move that needs a fort save or die. Now most class got good fort saves but the bard rouge sorc and wizard dont got them.

The save is 10+half monk level+wisdom modifer

IF the monk rolled a 18 put it in wisdom, put all 4 point from leveling into wisdom (22) then got a tomb and some magic items (32). So that would be DC 31.

Even with a good fort save +15ish they have to roll 16 or more.

But I know I have done some thing wrong in this line of thinking. Is there some thing I am forgeting that stops some one form going monk to grab some nice gear like belt of battel, stalking some poor guy for 3 days, runing in atacking and maybe killing a few people this way?

[Sstoopidtallkid]

Multiple things.
First off, it's once a week, so not useful in standard D&D. Second, the monk has poor BAB and requires many stats to be good, so pumping Wis like that isn't practical, especially not if you want to hit with your once-a-week maybe insta-kill.
Third, fort saves are generally pretty high, except in the cases you mentioned. Even then, Con is usually a high sstat, so the save will at least be adequate.
Fourth, that means taking 20 levels of monk. Don't.
Fifth, there's already a thread on this, couldn't you have used that?
Sixth, how do you plan to stalk a WIZARD for 3 days without notice?

[Eldritch_Ent]

Mostly, monks are just lame. A level 20 monk with a Wis of 32 is going to have rather terrible other stats. That's the downside of MAD- they need more than just a high wis to be viable. And those +5 tomes and items are *expensive*.

Plus it's once a week. A wizard can do it once a day, if not more, depending on how he chooses his spells. (Invisibility, Flight, Finger of Death....)

[shadow_archmagi]

I was reading a few monk threads and got to looking into the class more (I have played it but never have finshed to level 20). The monk hase an instakill (Quivering palm) move that needs a fort save or die. Now most class got good fort saves but the bard rouge sorc and wizard dont got them.

The save is 10+half monk level+wisdom modifer

IF the monk rolled a 18 put it in wisdom, put all 4 point from leveling into wisdom (22) then got a tomb and some magic items (32). So that would be DC 31.

Even with a good fort save +15ish they have to roll 16 or more.

But I know I have done some thing wrong in this line of thinking. Is there some thing I am forgeting that stops some one form going monk to grab some nice gear like belt of battel, stalking some poor guy for 3 days, runing in atacking and maybe killing a few people this way?

Have you seen whassisname's monk handbook? The one where he says never to take more than six levels of monk?

Also, why would you take any monk at all? ANYONE can use belt of battle. Everyone can benefit for it, whether its a bard singing twice as fast or a barbarian hitting twice as much. Course, its a per-day limit, but nothing says you have to wear it all day.

[Demons_eye]

Like I said just some thing bugging me. Never got to the later levels but any thime I played it was easy to stalk a wizard for 3 days let alone a week.

[Eldariel]

All casters can roll that at range dozens of times per day. A Monk can do it once per week at level 15. Also, it requires hitting, so not only do you need to beat opponent's Fort-save, you also need to beat their AC. Also, Fort-saves tend to be strong for monsters due to large number of HD and high Con. High level Humanoids always have Cloaks of Resistance and Con plusses which you failed to account for - the realistic level 20 good save would be around +24 or so. But yea, basically it boils down to this:
-Monk has 1/week Save or Die that requires him to put all his points into it to be really respectable, which means he sucks at everything else (what's he doing for the rest of the week?) and doesn't have what it takes to hit in the first place, making triggering the ability impossible.
-Caster has ~20/day Fortitude (or Will) Save or Die-spells and only need one ability score so they can focus on it exclusively.

Basically, the difference between Monk Save or Die and a caster Save or Die are three things:
-Monk needs to make an attack (and be adjacent) before using the ability. By comparison, a simple Finger of Death can be done at the range of 75' on level 20 without any extensions, without attack roll.
-Monk needs other stats and thus can't afford to focus on the save-focus stat to the exclusion of others. By comparison, Wizard, Cleric or Druid all get all they need from their spells and thus can afford 18 in the casting stat to start with and putting all their level-ups, tomes and company to it (and taking a bonus race).
-Monk can use the ability once per week. ONCE PER WEEK! That's like once per adventure for a rather mediocre ability. By comparison, casters do it daily many times.


Quivering Palm is like a Monk spell that Monk can just cast spells really rarely. It's still a bonus over something like a Fighter, but it's 1/week, which pretty much kills any hopes of really using it consistently, and it's a Fortitude-save which tends to be the highest. The ability just runs into synergy problems in Monk and is too rarely available to focus on. Oh yeah, and taking 15 levels in Monk means you just took 9 levels that gave you nothing of substance for 1/week ability.

[Chronos]

Remember, too, rolling a 16 or better happens one time in four. If you're going to be planning on regularly using a Plan A that has a one in four chance of failure, you'd better have a pretty good plan B, C, and D. If someone makes a save versus a spellcaster's save-or-die, the spellcaster can just cast another spell (including another save-or-die, if you like). If someone makes the save against your Quivering Palm, you can't just use another Quivering Palm. What's it going to be?

[SadisticFishing]

For one thing, Finger of Death does require an attack roll.

For another, once a week is bad. Once a week, in melee, requires an attack roll that isn't touch, and has a relatively easy save... Worse. Yeah.

[Douglas]

For one thing, Finger of Death does require an attack roll.

No it doesn't. It's a targeted spell at close range with no attack roll and a fort save. The only standard defenses against it are spell resistance and the fort save. If both of those fail and you have no special protection against it (Death Ward, for example), then you have nothing further to fall back on.

[SadisticFishing]

Oops. You are indeed correct.

Spell Resistance counts, right? We're talking about playable monks!

... yeah, okay, so Quivering Palm REALLY loses.

We always played it like it was a ray... but we've only seen it used, twice. Ever. Heh.

[monty]

For one thing, Finger of Death does require an attack roll.

First, no it doesn't. Second, even if it did, ranged touch >> melee non-touch.

Also, if they make their save against FoD, it still does something. Yet another +.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

Let's compare a Monk to a Cleric.
Both have d8 HD, a moderately good skill list, and 4+int skillpoints per level. Both have a .75 BAB, though monk gets Greater Flurry to make up for this and Cleric gets spells to increase hit chance and number of hits. Monk needs Wis, Dex, Con, and Str. Cleric needs Wis, Con, and Str. However, the Cleric has spells that mean he needs less of those stats than anyone else. He's going to pretty much put all effort into raising Wis, as Divine Power and Righteous Might can eliminate most of the need for Str, and Heavy Armor eliminates the need for Dex, wheras the monk has to raise all 4 stats just to not be glaringly weak. At high levels, the monk is going to deal 8d6+Str damage each hit. The Cleric is going to be doing 2d8+Str+5(GMW)+2d6(Holy)+4(Righteous Might)+2d6(flaming, shock). And that's with only a minimal amount of WBL. The monk gets 20 Save-or-Sucks a day, a Cleric gets 26, some of which are Save-or-Dies, some of whicch are AoE, and some don't allow a save, instead targetting touch AC(normally below 15, even at CR 20). And not all of the Cleric's target the same save. Plus, a Cleric can afford to get a 32 Wis, wheras a Monk has to boost Dex, Wis, and Con just to avoid dying and Wis and Str just to be able to do something offensive. Not worth it, IMHO. The Monk just sucks.

[LordOkubo]

Like I said just some thing bugging me. Never got to the later levels but any thime I played it was easy to stalk a wizard for 3 days let alone a week.

Maybe you should read the later level spells, like Teleport?

Seriously, you aren't going to stalk anyone for that long.

Immunity to crits actually makes one immune to Quivering Palm. So after level 13, every Wizard in the game can be immune to it all day every day.

Alternatively, using more then one spell slot, they can manage the same thing at level 7.

That's right, your uber attack doesn't even work on Wizard's with half your level.

Furthermore, the average Fort save of a Wizard level 20 is:

+6 Base, +5-6 Con, +6 Superior Resistance, +1 Luck, +4 Morale= +17 so they already have a 3/10ths chance of succeeding even without:

Shapechange to be immune, Shapechange to get a higher Con score, A single level 7 spell with duration of hours per level that makes them immune, a group of spells level 1/2/3/4 that all together make them immune, ect.

But let's say this actually was an issue. Would you rather play the above Monk? Or the below Wizard:

Int 38......18 Base + 2 Racial + 6 Item + 5 Tome + 5 Level up + 2 Age.

Spell Focus and Greater Spell Focus in both Necromancy and Transmutation.

Heightened Flesh to Stone and Heightened Finger of Death each prepared several times.

Flys around invisibly stalking people. Several times per day he casts one of the above spells.

DC 35 Save or Die, from range. Several times a day.

Note this is actually a terrible Wizard, since a good one would have Wrathful Castigation to target Will, and something to target Reflex, and would use those 9th level slots for Shapechange and Time Stop, but whatever, still a billion times better then a Monk.

[Curmudgeon]

Let's compare a Monk to a Cleric.
Both have d8 HD, a moderately good skill list, and 4+int skillpoints per level. Both have a .75 BAB,

Well, except that regular Clerics get only 2 + INT mod skill points per level, which is a significant difference.

[CASTLEMIKE]

Edit: Beat to the posting finish line.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

Oops, sorry. I almost always play Druids if I'm going Divine.

[Mushroom Ninja]

Don't forget that the wizard has a contingency spell running.

[Emperor Tippy]

You can make a passable monk by getting it down to SAD (intelligence) or only needing 2 abilities. It just requires a **** ton of sources to do it and isn't really worth the effort.

Swordsage 1 (unarmed variant)/Monk 19 going shadow hand with Kung-Fu Genius, Faerie Mysteries Initiate, Shadow Blade, Weapon Finesse (unarmed Strike), and Keen Intellect. That gets you Int to all monk abilities, Int to HP, Int to Will saves, Dex to attack, and Dex to damage. Granted it does take 5 feats. Throw in Improved Natural Attack and a few other feats and you can make a credible monk.

It's just not easy. And the credible monk is still significantly worse than most other classes. Your much better off just going Unarmed Swordsage 20 in a Mithril Chainshirt.