Advice on E6, Psions and the Tome of Battle?

[Tam_OConnor]

Hello there, all you wonderful people. I'm about to run an E6 game using the Psion (XPH), the Martial Adepts (Tome of Battle: Book of Nine Swords) the common Rogue and a homebrew class derived from the Dragon Shaman.

I was just wondering if y'all have any advice or anecdotes about any of the above (excepting the homebrew). Things to know for E6, for example, or the supposedly better balanced 'Psionics + Martial Adepts.'

Much thanks.

[MammonAzrael]

I haven't played E6 at all, but from what I understand and have seen for myself, psionics and ToB are pretty much the two most well balanced systems in D&D. So, theoretically they should fit the best into E6.

Good luck with your game, and enjoy!

[CASTLEMIKE]

Should be fun. Is everyone starting at first level?

[Tam_OConnor]

That's a yes on the 1st level. It's pulpy action, though, so they add their Con score to hp at first.

[CASTLEMIKE]

Threw me for a few seconds the constitution ability score itself not the modifier at first. Sounds kind of like Paizo Pathfinder.

I like the Erudite with the Spells to Power Variant if you can use a Educated Erudite based on the Educated Wilder Variant or can pick up a few powers outside of Erudite so there is always something available. Psion generally a better way to go in a E6 game.

[avr]

You need to decide whether the Expanded Knowledge feat can be taken multiple times for different powers or not - it's not clear by the RAW.

Also, if those are the classes available there's a real problem with curing. Either be careful not to use cockatrices, curses, blindness spells etc or have some not horribly inconvenient means of getting rid of permanent ill effects.

[RagnaroksChosen]

Tob is a little over powerd in e6.. psions are fine though..

[Chronicled]

I like the Erudite with the Spells to Power Variant

Isn't this considered an extremely broken option?

Tob is a little over powerd in e6..

Not actually true.

Sounds like a fun game! The lack of dedicated healing could be a problem, but an easy fix I've found is to use Reserve Points. Your party should be fine then, especially if one of them's a Crusader. Other sorts of ailments can be solved via NPC healer-types, or (as E6 rules suggest) being very careful about using monsters with save-or-die effects.

[Vortling]

You'll need to decide what to do with the martial study and martial stance feats. While 3rd level maneuvers aren't overpowered in and of themselves, having a great many of them could be unbalancing.

[Knaight]

That said isn't there also a feat somewhere to get a new psionic ability?

[namo]

You need to decide whether the Expanded Knowledge feat can be taken multiple times for different powers or not - it's not clear by the RAW.

I don't have the XPH with me, but the text in the SRD is clear.

Expanded Knowledge [Psionic]
Prerequisites: Manifester level 3rd.

Benefit: Add to your powers known one additional power of any level up to one level lower than the highest-level power you can manifest. You can choose any power, including powers from another discipline’s list or even from another class’s list.

Special: You can gain this feat multiple times. Each time, you learn one new power at any level up to one less than the highest-level power you can manifest.

In E6, you may want to eventually allow powers up to the highest-level power the PC can manifest (instead of 1 level lower).

[CASTLEMIKE]

Isn't this considered an extremely broken option?

No not at low levels of play regardless of how many powers he knows he has very limited daily usage: Basic Erudite - 1 has a single power to use without other feats. Basic Erudite -3 has two powers without other feats. Basic Erudite -5 has three powers without other feats. Not a lot of fun knowing a situationally useful power you are unable to access and thus lose the encounter.

In E6, you may want to eventually allow powers up to the highest-level power the PC can manifest (instead of 1 level lower).

Erudites don't need to spend a feat to learn a new power, but they are limited in how many of their known powers per day they can manifest so it is a little gray how that feat is applied to an Erudite in the different games. Some games will treat it as a permanent power that is always accessible if the Erudite has PP and other won't just adding it to total known powers basically wasting the feat.

[RagnaroksChosen]

TOB definetly is more overpowered then most of the other classes. Think about it.. TOB makes it so that Fighter types are more on par with wizards and clerics.. how ever there power is turned down dramatically as the highest level spell is 3rd... which meens dc's tend to stay low any way. I hvae however seen a Gm use TOB feats as fighter feets to add some menuvers after hitting epic and or allowing a character to retrain once they hit epic to a TOb class "to show there mastery"

plus it takes away from the grittyness that is e6, and adds an element of "Wuxia" that seems to out of place in something like this... I love E6 its the only way I play 3.5 now....

[Tormsskull]

TOB definetly is more overpowered then most of the other classes. Think about it.. TOB makes it so that Fighter types are more on par with wizards and clerics

Be careful making those kind of statements round here partner. And make sure you have a can of insect repellent ready.

[RagnaroksChosen]

Im not trying to say TOB is a bad book.. im just saying for e6 its a bit over powered.. don't forget most people agree that at low levels the fighter shines... its at higher levels that they suck... the way e6 is set up it plays into the strength of a fighter in my opinion... tob however is again a little over powered fro the setting.

[Cainen]

It's really not. ToB is an attempt to bring the martial characters up to speed on flexibility, not power. Power-wise, they're balanced.

Psionics is basically a more balanced and fine-tuned magic system.

And, of course, the Rogue works as-is.

[RagnaroksChosen]

It's really not. ToB is an attempt to bring the martial characters up to speed on flexibility, not power. Power-wise, they're balanced.

Psionics is basically a more balanced and fine-tuned magic system.

And, of course, the Rogue works as-is.

right and in E6 you get a ton more feets which plays into the fact that warriors will have more flexibility...

[crazedloon]

No not at low levels of play regardless of how many powers he knows he has very limited daily usage: Basic Erudite - 1 has a single power to use without other feats. Basic Erudite -3 has two powers without other feats. Basic Erudite -5 has three powers without other feats. Not a lot of fun knowing a situaltionally useful power you are unable to access and thus lose the encounter.

I'm going to point out the above is partially true in that they are limited by the powers they can use but the number stated is as per RaW

"An erudite is limited to manifesting a certain number of unique psionic powers of each level per day ... "

emphasis mine so a 5 Erudite has 9 unique powers per day 3 of each level he knows and a erudite 3 has 4 2 of each level. but yes they are very limited until later levels where that limit rarely comes into play.

My suggestion is drop the normal rogue class as it will seam out of place in the group with all the other guys with powers and unique moves. My suggestion would be the Psychic Rogue fills the role of the rogue but has special powers too

[Ecalsneerg]

right and in E6 you get a ton more feets which plays into the fact that warriors will have more flexibility...

But then you run into the problem that a lot of fighter feats are simply add x to y, there aren't that many that let you actual be flexible other than attacking, tripping or disarming.

[RagnaroksChosen]

But then you run into the problem that a lot of fighter feats are simply add x to y, there aren't that many that let you actual be flexible other than attacking, tripping or disarming.

i guess i can see that...

maybe it's just my view of tob.. and my view of e6..

[Neon Knight]

i guess i can see that...

maybe it's just my view of tob.. and my view of e6..

ToB characters are more powerful than regular melee in two key ways: mobility and flexibility.

ToB can deliver damage similar to regular melee full attacks in standard actions. This allows them to use their full combat potential on the move and in situations were normal melee couldn't.

Maneuvers also give ToB classes access to things they've never had before, like ability damage and status effects. These are in line and behind wizard power levels.

ToB classes do no more damage than regular melee unless cheesed, and cheesed regular melee does more damage.

[Knaight]

Actually level 6 is a really good level to cut off martial adepts and keep them balanced. They have the advantage at 4, 9, 14, and 19, the big disadvantage at multiples of 5, and then at 6, 11, and 16 its more balanced. At this point most regular melee classes will have an iterative attack, and the rogue will have just grabbed that third die of sneak attack damage.

[Tam_OConnor]

Okay, just thought I'd clear some things up.
1) I'm not using the Erudite, so I don't have to be confused by all this talk of...I'm not exactly sure; Psion is the one manifesting class, though.

2) I am the anti-trap DM, so Rogues lose trapfinding and trap sense, and gain tricks at 2nd, 4th and 6th levels. A trick is one of the following: a feat that boost skills, a 1st level power manifestable 3/day, a 1st level maneuver usable 1/encounter or a homebrew dragon shaman aura at +1 for 1 minute. That'll give them a way to differentiate themselves.

3) ToB overpoweredness. Bonecrusher, 3rd level maneuver, +4d6 damage, +10 to rolls to confirm crits. Soaring Raptor Stance: 3rd level maneuver, +6d6 damage at +4 attack against larger foes. These, and a few others, now have to be performed as full-attack actions. As in, 'I five-foot and use full-attack/ use Bonecrusher.'

4) ToB Flavor. I'll be honest: I love wuxia. I love pulp adventure. (I dislike Eberron for its magitek, but that's a different discussion). For some characters (the saber duelist), this means they have flavor changes (Punishing Stance into Fool's Stance), others not so much. Besides, it means I have legitimate cause for people saying "Your kung-fu is weak!"

5) Healing. The Dragon shaman homebrew still has a vigor aura, which can bring the party up to half health. The Crusader provides in-combat healing (and leads into situations where the PCs get into fights to heal up). If I remember right, the Psion has a smidge of self-healing. The Heal skill has taken a page from d20 Modern, and so can actually be used to, you know, heal. Again, the pulpy feel, where PCs have to recover for a few weeks before they go adventure again. (Or is that more noir? Either way, I like it).

6) Petrification has been revised so that it does ability damage (2d6 Dex, I believe). With the loss of the PHB spellcasters, the list of permanent, low-level save or dies has been reduced; anyone know of any major psionic save or dies?

[CASTLEMIKE]

I'm going to point out the above is partially true in that they are limited by the powers they can use but the number stated is as per RaW

"An erudite is limited to manifesting a certain number of unique psionic powers of each level per day ... "

emphasis mine so a 5 Erudite has 9 unique powers per day 3 of each level he knows and a erudite 3 has 4 2 of each level. but yes they are very limited until later levels where that limit rarely comes into play.

My suggestion is drop the normal rogue class as it will seam out of place in the group with all the other guys with powers and unique moves. My suggestion would be the Psychic Rogue fills the role of the rogue but has special powers too

Sure if someone deliberately misinterpets and misconstrues that text the Erudite suddenly becomes one of the best classes in the game particularly with the Spells to Power Variant somewhere around L5-L7 it is suddenly better than any comparable psion and almost any spellcaster (Mainly Thinking Ur Priest which will have access to level 9 spells at L14 & L15) and just keeps getting better. Table 6-6 is clear that Unique Powers a Day (11 L9 or Below Powers a Day Not 99 at L20) is modeled after the Wilder Mechanic for daily power access barring other feats so it hurts at low levels but generally rocks at higher levels under the general premise that manifesting higher level powers is usually better than manifesting lower level powers and the fact that the Erudite should have more choices of which power is more appropiate to manifest for a particular situation than most comparable casters. Just having Miracle for 17 PP grants a whole lot of options compared to regular casters. (Of course casting Miracle round after round could get old )

Sounds like a fun game Tam.

[Knaight]

3) ToB overpoweredness. Bonecrusher, 3rd level maneuver, +4d6 damage, +10 to rolls to confirm crits. Soaring Raptor Stance: 3rd level maneuver, +6d6 damage at +4 attack against larger foes. These, and a few others, now have to be performed as full-attack actions. As in, 'I five-foot and use full-attack/ use Bonecrusher.'

Using e6 there aren't even going to be that many larger foes, and Soaring Raptor Stance discourages enhancing the fighting characters size, which can make a huge difference in the effectiveness of fighting classes(for instance a psychic warrior using expansion). As for Bonecrusher, thats slightly more powerful than a 6th level rogue sneak attacking once, and it can be used once per two turns tops. The rogue can also move, so in this case advantage rogue. Thats assuming the rogue isn't two weapon fighting and hitting twice, or has a slight multiclass taking sneak attack down to 2d6 in exchange for an ititerative attack.

4d6 damage basically comes to an average of 14 extra damage. A fighter in e6 can power attack for 12, and has an iterative attack.

[RagnaroksChosen]

i don't know mabye its just me then cuz i know i've played e6 as a fighter and didn't feel left behind if any thing i felt a little over powered.

the only one who seemed to do more dmg was the rogue.. and that was when we where fighitng things alive(we where fighting alot of undead)
I was doing a 2nder build...


but like i said i ususaly don't allow TOB in my e6 games.. when i run normal games have at it.

[Knaight]

Fighters own at E6. That feat at 1st level is really nice when you first hit sixth level. As in fighters getting 6 feats as opposed to 2 at this point, 3 times as many as anybody else, barring human bonus feats. Add in power attack, the fact that most enemies are still reasonably trippable, grappleable, etc. and the fighter gets to clean up. That said rogue 4, fighter 2 is a pretty good combination. 4 feats, 2d6 sneak attack, 2 attacks, and the martial adepts get to go over in a corner and cry about how much they suck.

[Te'Shen]

Sure if someone deliberately misinterpets and misconstrues that text the Erudite suddenly becomes one of the best classes in the game . . .

I think I'll give crazedloon the benefit of the doubt, Castlemike (...but just this once :P). There are two versions of the erudite, the one that originally appeared in Dragon magazine and the Complete Psionic one. The dragon version reads has he suggests... and if he's not aware, the Complete Psionic one should supersede it, being the newer publication, which reads as you state.

I recommend allowing the erudite the spell to power option (with tailoring to make the spells more psionic) in the lower end play that is E6 if you allow the erudite. You don't really have the chance to get to the brokenation that is the higher level spells, at the same time it allows you to do things not usually accessable to psionics, like illusions. In a 'gritty' game, I think it should work well.

[CASTLEMIKE]

Fighters own at E6. That feat at 1st level is really nice when you first hit sixth level. As in fighters getting 6 feats as opposed to 2 at this point, 3 times as many as anybody else, barring human bonus feats. Add in power attack, the fact that most enemies are still reasonably trippable, grappleable, etc. and the fighter gets to clean up. That said rogue 4, fighter 2 is a pretty good combination. 4 feats, 2d6 sneak attack, 2 attacks, and the martial adepts get to go over in a corner and cry about how much they suck.

Feat Rogue Variant -2, F-2, Warblade-1, Feat Rogue+1 lot of feats, plus Evasion, lots of skill points and some Il-3 when taking martial maneuvers with rapid recovery.

I think I'll give crazedloon the benefit of the doubt, Castlemike (...but just this once :P). There are two versions of the erudite, the one that originally appeared in Dragon magazine and the Complete Psionic one. The dragon version reads has he suggests... and if he's not aware, the Complete Psionic one should supersede it, being the newer publication, which reads as you state.

I recommend allowing the erudite the spell to power option (with tailoring to make the spells more psionic) in the lower end play that is E6 if you allow the erudite. You don't really have the chance to get to the brokenation that is the higher level spells, at the same time it allows you to do things not usually accessable to psionics, like illusions. In a 'gritty' game, I think it should work well.

Thanks for pointing that out I wasn't aware that The Dragon Erudite was so Uber I'll have to dig out my copy now.

Seems like Gestalt Very Old or Venerable Dragowrought Kobold Erudite -20//Rogue -1, Factotum -19 or Archivist or Beguiler or Wizard -20 PRCs to taste builds should be mentioned more fequently on the boards citing the Dragon Magazine Erudite, Races of Dragon Kobolds and the Draconomicon.

[Eldariel]

When playing without Capstones, I personally prefer Warblade 4/Martial Rogue 2 (taking 4th Warblade-level on level 6). Only one attack, but as an Adept, that's no issue (and full attacking sucks anyways). And taking Martial Rogue first and 5th leads to incredible skills (although in games actually starting from level 1, I'd probably take Warblade first for the HP), and your second stance gets to be 3rd level, so no blowing a feat on that. Ironically, on level 6 a Warblade 4/X 2 is a better Warblade than Warblade 6 simply because of the 3rd level stance (Warblade 6 is stuck with two first level stances). This gives up some roads like Shock Trooper (+6 BAB etc.), but I generally find the extra skills worth it.

When playing with Capstones though, Fighter 6 is very good (Fighter 6 Capstone is the ability to take feats as a Fighter 8 with +8 BAB), since you can get, among others, Improved Critical, Melee Weapon Mastery and so on to really act as a Fighter 8 or so with little effort (the bonuses really tend to stack up early on).