Bugbears in 4E...

[Hadrian_Emrys]

Are they just too bloody superior of an option when compared to everything else as far as races go in regards to non-magical classes? I mean, a Fighter/Paladin can wield a Holy Avenger Glaive in 1 hand and a shield in another in order to really make use of area control. As a ranger, you can crank out a good bit more damage than the average bear with twin two-handed weapons or plus sized one-handed toys in the d10/d12 area. Is there really any reason NOT to use one for physical classes?

[AKA_Bait]

Is there really any reason NOT to use one for physical classes?

Well, for one thing, you'd have to play a bugbear.

[LordOkubo]

Are they just too bloody superior of an option when compared to everything else as far as races go in regards to non-magical classes? I mean, a Fighter/Paladin can wield a Holy Avenger Glaive in 1 hand and a shield in another in order to really make use of area control. As a ranger, you can crank out a good bit more damage than the average bear with twin two-handed weapons or plus sized one-handed toys in the d10/d12 area. Is there really any reason NOT to use one for physical classes?

Um, I don't think Oversized allows you to wield a THW in one hand.

[TwystidMynd]

I think LordOkubo is technically correct; a two-handed weapon remains a two-handed weapon for any size; but the Bugbears get to increase the damage die for the two-handed weapon according to the progression in the Equipment section in the PHB.

But, still, that means that you could wield a Holy Avenger Longsword that deals 1d10 damage, or a Waraxe that does like 1d12, or something... I don't have the table in front of me atm.

As far as your original question goes, though, I think Minotaurs have the same ability... so that's a reason not to play a Bugbear!

PS: as I mentioned above, I don't have the books in front of me so, for all I know, I could be misremembering the rules for Bugbears & Minotaurs.

[Hadrian_Emrys]

Bugbears can use medium two-handers as one-handed weapons, being a ranger allows one to use two one-handers even if the second isn't an offhanded toy. As for minotaurs, they aren't in the area that players can fish monsters from in order to play. Bugbears are, and they seem to be the perfect fit for any non-con boosted physical build I cook up, numerically speaking anyway. As far as playing a bugbear goes, that is the one snag that keep rearing it's ugly head. The only solution thus far has been to act as though I were another player's bodyguard/manservant in order to avoid the worst of racist npc responses.

Speaking of awkwardly superior MM playable races, Githyanki seem to be tailor made to be Warlock/Wizards. Infernal pact (with the related spells) and a select few fire/ice/lightning wizard spells make it a flexible spiker/crowd control monster.

[Chronicled]

Well, for one thing, you'd have to play a bugbear.

Congrats! Thread won.

[hamishspence]

its Large creatures that have it explicitly stated that they can use medium Two-handers one-handed. Wield oversized weapon only says it treats Large weapons as medium weapons.

[Hadrian_Emrys]

I named mine Theodore. The party loves it's highly flammable "teddy" bear.

[hamishspence]

the phrasing was "treats weapons one size larger as its size" so, by strict ruling, cannot do this with Medium two-handers, since that was for creatures of Large or larger sized (examples were fire giant and fire titan)

And Minotaurs are, like bugbears, in back of book. In fact they are more plausible as player characters, since they default to Alignment: Any, whereas bugbears default to Evil.

[Charity]

twin two-handed weapons

Congratulations I believe this is the first 4e Morbo moment, here was me thinking 3e had cornered the market with monkey grip... good times...

Anyhow no I think they are fairly balanced against the other classes, though rangers do get double the fun so to speak... but you do have to be a big ugly hairy monster man which can ... dare I say it... dependant on setting.. and DM ... cause some problems for the character

[ColdSepp]

its Large creatures that have it explicitly stated that they can use medium Two-handers one-handed. Wield oversized weapon only says it treats Large weapons as medium weapons.

This is important. All you can do is wield a larger weapon, which is a dice increase. You can't wield a two handed weapon one handed, without houserules. It simply means your bastard swords would do 1d12 instead of 1d10.

Nor could you use a glaive and shield, without a houserule.

[Inhuman Bot]

As far as your original question goes, though, I think Minotaurs have the same ability... so that's a reason not to play a Bugbear!

PS: as I mentioned above, I don't have the books in front of me so, for all I know, I could be misremembering the rules for Bugbears & Minotaurs.

Well, on minotaurs, I do recall something about dual weilding greataxes as a minotaur ranger.... But I'am not quite sure if that's relevant.

[hamishspence]

Now a Large creature would be a candidate for glaive+shield, or dual greataxe. But, currently, no Large races fully ready to play exist, as far as I know.

[ColdSepp]

Now a Large creature would be a candidate for glaive+shield, or dual greataxe. But, currently, no Large races fully ready to play exist, as far as I know.

Yes. A Medium sized glaive and Medium sized greataxes.

[MammonAzrael]

4e PHB page 220

4e PHB page 276

So I think it's open to a bit of interpretation. Large creatures can wield smaller two-handed weapons in one hand, but Oversized doesn't say you're simply treated as Large for determining weapons you can wield.

EDIT: We're not allowed to quote directly from the books, right? In that case I removed the quotes, and just left the reference pages.

[hamishspence]

Yup. since Large creatures don't come with Wield Oversized Weapon anyway (only creatures with that are medium)

Now a harder question for me was: if you combine stuff to get a large creature wielding a two-hander one handed, does it still benefit from two-handed rules? Would a Savage minotaur fighter with Medium greataxe and shield, benefit fully from Reaping strike?

Cust-Serv answers seem to default to: weapon is always one-handed, even wielded in two hands (halfling fighters with longswords do not get as much use out of reaping Strike, Power Attack, etc)

But would the same apply in reverse? Would a Hill Giant fighter do full damage with a medium two-hander, even though its being wielded one-handed?

[hamishspence]

I go with strict interpretation: If it doesn't say you can, you can't. Easier all round.

So, bugbears can dual-wield Large bastard swords, but not Medium greatswords.

[JackMage666]

Wizards learned a lesson from Powerful Build, and fixed it in 4e! You basically only get an extra 1 point of damage on average, which is nice, but not gamebreaking.

[TwystidMynd]

I agree that having the Oversized quality doesn't mean that you're Large. Oversized is explicitly defined, as is being Large... and for that reason I don't really think there's much interpretation that needs to be made.

As far as the mixing up stuff, I would probably rule against the CustServ interpretation. I'd say that if you use it two-handed, it's treated as a two-handed weapon... and if you use it one-handed, it's treated as a one-handed weapon. This hopefully makes using under-sized weapons less of an awesome thing for Large creatures, and gives a bit of a buff to Small creatures that are already pretty nerfed with regards to weapon choices.

But I already break the rules a bit with regards to weapons... I houserule that using anything two-handed gives a +1 damage bonus (which stacks with Versatile). This, to me, makes using 2-handed weapons more appealing, and gives a reason to actually take Weapon Proficiency with Bastard Sword.

[fractic]

Wizards learned a lesson from Powerful Build, and fixed it in 4e! You basically only get an extra 1 point of damage on average, which is nice, but not gamebreaking.

Not just 1 extra point of damage, 1 point per [W]. That's twice as powerfull as the guantlets of destruction which cost 85000 GP

[Lord Lorac Silvanos]

Congratulations I believe this is the first 4e Morbo moment, here was me thinking 3e had cornered the market with monkey grip... good times...

Monkey Grip, the feat that keeps on giving even in editions in which it does not exist (yet).

[ColdSepp]

Not just 1 extra point of damage, 1 point per [W]. That's twice as powerfull as the guantlets of destruction which cost 85000 GP

Gauntlets only apply to basic melee attacks.... who is going to be using those? Sure, OAs, but there are feats that let you use At wills during OAs, so... yeah.

[fractic]

Gauntlets only apply to basic melee attacks.... who is going to be using those? Sure, OAs, but there are feats that let you use At wills during OAs, so... yeah.

No it works on all melee attacks. There is no mention of basic attacks in the description.

[ColdSepp]

No it works on all melee attacks. There is no mention of basic attacks in the description.

Your right. Sorry, I was thinking of Bracers of Mighty Striking.

[Fiendish_Dire_Moose]

Saw Bugbears 4e and had to mention it: Anyone else notice how the Bugbear female has the tiggest ol' bitties in the game? Notice how she's also hunched over?

[Waspinator]

Well, for one thing, you'd have to play a bugbear.

Yeah, I could never play something with that silly of a name.

[Charity]

Yeah, I could never play something with that silly of a name.

what?! The Bugbear has a noble name with excellent lineage.

bug·bear
1. any source, real or imaginary, of needless fright or fear.
2. a persistent problem or source of annoyance.
3. Folklore. a goblin that eats up naughty children.

Monkey Grip, the feat that keeps on giving even in editions in which it does not exist (yet).

You know, I'm hoping they put it in.

[Lord Lorac Silvanos]

what?! The Bugbear has a noble name with excellent lineage.

Are you type 2 Charity?

[Charity]

A little from each, they're all good.

[Isomenes]

But I already break the rules a bit with regards to weapons... I houserule that using anything two-handed gives a +1 damage bonus (which stacks with Versatile). This, to me, makes using 2-handed weapons more appealing, and gives a reason to actually take Weapon Proficiency with Bastard Sword.

A perfectly good reason already exists for taking the Bastard Sword: it does a greatsword's damage in one hand. So, you can use a hefty sword, have excellent accuracy, AND have a +1 or +2 AC bonus (from a shield). Our group had the rule you mention proposed, and we decided against it because of the excellent balance that Versatility adds: it brings some one-handed weapons into parity, but two-handed weapons retain superior damage in the end. (This statement is contingent on a strict interpretation of the one-/two-handed descriptor rules.)