[4e] Super Glaive combo?

[Blackdrop]

I was doing the dishes a little while ago and it dawned on me (get it? Dawn the cleaning solution! Oh, I crack myself up.) that a Glaive is one very effective weapon for feat combos.

Specifically:

Blade Opportunist+Combat Reflexes+Weapon Focus (Polearms or Heavy Blades)+Heavy Blade Opportunity+Polearm Gamble+Uncanny Dodge

This setup allow you to make at-will attacks every time an enemy enters a square adjacent to you with a +3 bonus to attack, at the price of having combat advantage against you until the enemies turn.

A common enemy won't even benefit that much from combat advantage however, because Uncanny Dodge negates the +2 to attack roles that combat advantage gives.

[Covered In Bees]

Yes, the Glaive is good, but not clearly superior. Heavy Blade AoOs are best with the Tide of Iron at-will, but you can't use that with the glaive--no shield. Polearm Gamble + Heavy Blade Opportunity is good, but there are any number of monsters with reach, ranged attacks, etc.

Glaive fighters are nice in the Paragon tier, but I wouldn't necessarily take one over a sword-and-board or even a spear-and-shield, hoplite style, fighter.

[Blackdrop]

Fair point, but it still is a nice combo for an offensive minded Paladin (Enfeebling Strike) or possibly a warlord (Wolf Pack Tactics).

[Covered In Bees]

I'm not denying that it's pretty nice.

[Swok]

The latest amazing new thing with polearm gamble is Warforged using one as an imbedded weapon. Which lets them apparently use it one handed at a -2 to hit penalty.

I'm not sure if a to hit penalty that steep is made up for by that combo, but the capability is there.

[RTGoodman]

A common enemy won't even benefit that much from combat advantage however, because Uncanny Dodge negates the +2 to attack roles that combat advantage gives.

The problem I see with it (and with the Polearm Gamble feat in general) is that Combat Advantage does a lot more than just giving a bonus to attacks - a lot of enemies have extra damage or other things they can do if they have Combat Advantage, and I don't think Uncanny Dodge does anything to stop that. Sure they don't get the bonus to hit, but even minions are likely to hit you occasionally and still gain other bonuses from having CA.

[Covered In Bees]

The latest amazing new thing with polearm gamble is Warforged using one as an imbedded weapon. Which lets them apparently use it one handed at a -2 to hit penalty.

I'm not sure if a to hit penalty that steep is made up for by that combo, but the capability is there.

WAIT WHAT

Link. Now.

[Blackdrop]

The latest amazing new thing with polearm gamble is Warforged using one as an imbedded weapon. Which lets them apparently use it one handed at a -2 to hit penalty.

I'm not sure if a to hit penalty that steep is made up for by that combo, but the capability is there.

You know, I didn't actually think about that.

[Helgraf]

Yes, the Glaive is good, but not clearly superior. Heavy Blade AoOs are best with the Tide of Iron at-will, but you can't use that with the glaive--no shield. Polearm Gamble + Heavy Blade Opportunity is good, but there are any number of monsters with reach, ranged attacks, etc.

Glaive fighters are nice in the Paragon tier, but I wouldn't necessarily take one over a sword-and-board or even a spear-and-shield, hoplite style, fighter.

Alright, my brain is a little fuzzy. How does Tide of Iron work that provides frequent use of Opportunity Attacks (which are enhanced by HBO, et al)?

[Covered In Bees]

Alright, my brain is a little fuzzy. How does Tide of Iron work that provides frequent use of Opportunity Attacks (which are enhanced by HBO, et al)?

It's not that it provides OAs--it's that when you *make* an OA, Tide of Iron is a great at-will to use with it.

[Tengu_temp]

4E WEAPON FOCUS DOES NOT WORK THAT WAY!

Thank you Morbo.

It gives +1/2/3 to damage, not attack. You have no idea how annoying it is to see someone make that mistake for the twentienth time.

[Blackdrop]

I know Weapon Focus doesn't add to attack! I put it there since it's a feat combo and I wanted to add all the feats that I wanted to use.

[Tengu_temp]

Ah, hmm, okay. In that case my post will serve as a reminder to the people who make that mistake and see this thread for some reason or another.

[Oracle_Hunter]

Other nice combos are Cleave (yes, you get an extra free attack with every OA), Holy Smite (for all your undead-slaying needs), and Viper's Strike (oh, you wanted to move some more?).

Personally, I'm skeptical of the Warforged Cheese. Word on the street is that some CustServ has allowed it, but since it would allow the incredibly broken Polearm Gambit + Tide of Iron combo, I doubt it'll stick.

[LordOkubo]

1) Polearm Gambit + Tide of Iron is "incredibly broken"?

2) How about, for best AoO at wills: Righteous Brand. +5 to attack at level 1? +10 at level 30? Yeah, I think I'll enjoy handing that out on every AoO.

[Oracle_Hunter]

1) Polearm Gambit + Tide of Iron is "incredibly broken"?

It runs like this:
1) NPC steps adjacent to Fighter, triggering Polearm Gambit (+WIS to hit, 'cause of Combat Superiority)
2) Fighter hits, uses Tide of Iron to move NPC back one square. NPC's movement is ended because of Combat Superiority.
3) Next turn, the NPC can try to move past again... rinse and repeat.

This converts a Fighter from road-bump into a brick wall - nothing can get past him without taking the long way around. If the Fighter is in a choke point (15 feet across), absolutely nothing can get around him.

While this isn't Divine Miracle levels of broken, it is unreasonably strong for a two-feat combo.

[Helgraf]

It runs like this:
1) NPC steps adjacent to Fighter, triggering Polearm Gambit (+WIS to hit, 'cause of Combat Superiority)
2) Fighter hits, uses Tide of Iron to move NPC back one square. NPC's movement is ended because of Combat Superiority.
3) Next turn, the NPC can try to move past again... rinse and repeat.

This converts a Fighter from road-bump into a brick wall - nothing can get past him without taking the long way around. If the Fighter is in a choke point (15 feet across), absolutely nothing can get around him.

While this isn't Divine Miracle levels of broken, it is unreasonably strong for a two-feat combo.

So this is when your monster drops back 7 squares and switches to a missile weapon, forcing the fighter to move into more open terrain or become a pin-cushion.

Tactics are good for monsters too.

[Oracle_Hunter]

So this is when your monster drops back 7 squares and switches to a missile weapon, forcing the fighter to move into more open terrain or become a pin-cushion.

Tactics are good for monsters too.

Oh, very true, but you do see how this particular combo can be easily abused? Heck, it doesn't really require the Fighter to stand anywhere special to be effective - if the squishy stays in the rear adjacent square, then nobody is going to be able to get close to him without the fighter being able to Tide and reposition.

It makes the Fighter a little too good at his role, in the same way that the old stealth rules made Ranged Rogues a little too good.

[Douglas]

Or the monster can just accept that he's not attacking this turn and use his standard action to move again. You only get one OA per target per round in 4e regardless of how many times a target provokes one, and Combat Superiority explicitly does not prevent using additional actions to continue the move. With any sort of intelligent positioning, a group of monsters should be able to make it very difficult for the fighter to continue being such an obstacle in the next round.

[OneFamiliarFace]

It runs like this:
1) NPC steps adjacent to Fighter, triggering Polearm Gambit (+WIS to hit, 'cause of Combat Superiority)
2) Fighter hits, uses Tide of Iron to move NPC back one square. NPC's movement is ended because of Combat Superiority.
3) Next turn, the NPC can try to move past again... rinse and repeat.

I think the only problem with this, unless said Fighter is, apparently a Warforged, is that one needs to be using a shield to use Tide of Iron. Perhaps that was what you were talking about though. I think, as you mentioned, it is not only a good option, but also funny, to use Cleave. The whole enemy moving in, another one being hit thing reminds me vaguely of The Stooges sketches involving flower pots and closed fists.

[Oracle_Hunter]

Yeah... I'm not making an OMG HAX!!!11!!1!! claim here, but the one-handed-glave + Tide of Iron combo is extremely good, and, honestly, well above the power level of other HBO combos. As such, it is at least High Cheese, if people feel uncomfortable labeling it as "broken."

[OneFamiliarFace]

Yeah... I'm not making an OMG HAX!!!11!!1!! claim here, but the one-handed-glave + Tide of Iron combo is extremely good, and, honestly, well above the power level of other HBO combos. As such, it is at least High Cheese, if people feel uncomfortable labeling it as "broken."

If we can label that "broken," then I think it is a pretty well sealed-deal that 4e has, for now, solved most balance issues.

[Blackdrop]

I've always defined broken as you getting everything for free. Even the Tide of Iron+Polearm Gambit requires you to be playing a warforged and you also taking a -2 to attack. And with the few ways to boost your attack, that is a major hit.

[Skyserpent]

WAIT WHAT

Link. Now.

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/drfe/20080606b

Yeah, you can use a Two-Hander with one hand now. at a -2, and it doesn't specify that it takes two to wield but it does seem to have that permanent -2 even if you use both hands. Still though... Damn good.

[Covered In Bees]

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/drfe/20080606b

Yeah, you can use a Two-Hander with one hand now. at a -2, and it doesn't specify that it takes two to wield but it does seem to have that permanent -2 even if you use both hands. Still though... Damn good.

It doesn't say that you can use the two-handed weapon with one hand. It DOES specify that you can do so for the crossbow. Therefore, you can use the crossbow one-handed, but still need both hands for the two-handed attached weapon (and take a -2 anyway).

[LordOkubo]

It runs like this:
1) NPC steps adjacent to Fighter, triggering Polearm Gambit (+WIS to hit, 'cause of Combat Superiority)
2) Fighter hits, uses Tide of Iron to move NPC back one square. NPC's movement is ended because of Combat Superiority.
3) Next turn, the NPC can try to move past again... rinse and repeat.

This converts a Fighter from road-bump into a brick wall - nothing can get past him without taking the long way around. If the Fighter is in a choke point (15 feet across), absolutely nothing can get around him.

While this isn't Divine Miracle levels of broken, it is unreasonably strong for a two-feat combo.

I am well aware of what it does, it's just not that big a deal.

1) Use standard action to move.
2) Shift, unless you are alone the fighter can't stop all of you.
3) Raged weapons/attacks
4) Not provoking an AoO in your movement.

I don't see how stopping them from running in a straight line at you is somehow cheese.

[Kiara LeSabre]

If you like this trick, though, you might like the Swordmaster paragon path for Precision Cut (useable as an OA), although personally, I'd still go with something like Pit Fighter or Kensai (depending on build) for the much larger damage potential.

And if you really, really enjoy doing this, multi-classing ranger for Fox's Cunning is also a possibility. The trigger on that is an opponent making a melee attack against you, so it goes like this:

1. Opponent with no reach weapon moves to attack you, triggering Polearm Gamble.
2. You use Polearm Gamble to execute your attack.
3. Opponent then continues adjacent to you and attacks, triggering Fox's Cunning.
4. You step back one square and deliver a basic attack (Bracers of Mighty Striking help here if you really like doing this sort of thing).
5. Your interrupt cancels and renders irrelevant your opponent's attack, and your opponent's turn ends.

You now may make any other attack against the same opponent that you like, and you have a move action to do with as you choose.

[namo]

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/drfe/20080606b

Yeah, you can use a Two-Hander with one hand now. at a -2, and it doesn't specify that it takes two to wield but it does seem to have that permanent -2 even if you use both hands. Still though... Damn good.

IIRC, the wording was changed in the final version (the whole Dragon issue) and it's clearly not possible anymore. That's what came out of the thread over on WotC.

[Douglas]

5. Your interrupt cancels and renders irrelevant your opponent's attack, and your opponent's turn ends.

Aside from being an encounter power, which makes this much harder to abuse regularly, Fox's Cunning is an immediate reaction. It is resolved after the attack that triggers it, not before.

[Helgraf]

Yeah, shoot this one dead.

Text from Dragon_364.pdf (final publication of whole issue trumps individual articles)

Weapon: One-handed weapons and all crossbows make fine attached components. Such a component covers the weapon hand, so you have to remove the weapon before you can use that hand for another task.
An attached two-handed crossbow still requires two hands to use with maximum accuracy, but the crossbow covers only one hand. However, you can shoot an attached crossbow without using an additional hand to brace the weapon. You take a –2 penalty to attack rolls when doing so.
A two-handed melee weapon can be attached to both hands, but doing so restricts your movement with the weapon, making it less effective. You take a –2 penalty to attack rolls with an attached two-handed melee weapon.