[3.x]Unmentioned Classes...

[arguskos]

I hear frequently about the Big Three Core casters and how they rock. I hear tons about how Fighters/Samurai/Monks/etc suck. I even hear praises sung from the hills about classes like Swordsage and Beguiler, but I rarely hear anything about some classes.

What about the Archivist? Or the Ninja? Swashbuckler anyone? Spirit Shaman and Knight want hugs. Does anyone love the Wu Jen or the Hexblade? I know these classes aren't optimal (or even very good in some cases) but surely the Archivist, at the VERY least (though Dread Necro is good, Knight's not terrible, Duskblade is decent, etc), should get mentioned sometimes, though he almost never is.

Mostly, I'm wondering if these, less popular classes are less discussed because they suck, because no one cares, or because people just forget about them?

-argus

[Behold_the_Void]

Archivist gets mentioned a lot, it's one of the more powerful classes in the game as a matter of fact. The others you mention tend to be... decent-ish. Swashbuckler is usually mentioned for a 3-level dip, Hexblade comes up occasionally but there tend to be better options around, Wu Jen is a Wizard with a crappier spell list, Knight is considered pretty decent at what it does but tends to be overshadowed by Tome of Battle classes, and Ninja is ok, as I recall. Spirit Shaman I don't think is particularly interesting. In most cases, I think those classes you mentioned all have other classes that do what they do only better, but they're not bad at what they do like the bottom-tier classes are.

[TheCountAlucard]

Admittedly, classes that get mentioned most are those that are extraordinarily good, and those that are extraordinarily bad.

Actually, that's how it is about a lot of things...

[Saph]

Mostly, I'm wondering if these, less popular classes are less discussed because they suck, because no one cares, or because people just forget about them?

Mostly because people just forget about them, I think. Which is a shame in some ways, as some of those classes really are forgettable, but others are very well made.

Duskblade, for instance, is an excellently balanced class that's effective and flexible (without being overpowering) at every level from 1 to 20. It's one of my favourite classes to play in one-shot adventures.

- Saph

[arguskos]

I'd agree that some are honestly forgettable, but some others I just don't know how we miss. Take Spellthief, for instance. It's a cool mechanic, not often done. I read it, liked it, and somehow totally forgot it existed after an hour. I never see it referenced, ever, and wonder why. It's not cause it's not cool (cause it is). I dunno, I guess I just feel bad that so many classes go unloved.

That's it, I need to make a single character at level 1 for EVERY base class out there, so they can each have their time to shine (and yes, I mean EVERY class... Samurai, I'm lookin' at you).

-argus

[Zeta Kai]

All I know is that the Factotum is made of 100% pure WIN.
But yes, Saph, the Duskblade is most awesome as well.

[kamikasei]

Why would these classes be referenced? Why would they crop up in discussion?

People seem to get the most jawin' material out of the extreme ends of class balance - the overpowered and the sucky. Reasonably balanced classes that don't stand out as ridiculously better at everything they do than everyone else, or being completely incapable of fulfilling their intended purpose, just don't draw attention for those reasons.

People do occasionally bring up classes like Spellthief, Spirit Shaman, etc, but only if they want advice on how to play one. If a class is decent but not crazy powerful, you don't need that much advice, so it doesn't come up.

[Eldariel]

Archivist is win. It's right there with Druids, Wizards, Clerics and Artificers on the top of the mountain. And it gets mentioned in numbers appropriate for that. Only thing is, most arguments area "core" nowadays and only 3 of the best 5 classes in the game are core.

[FatherMalkav]

Personally I love my Archivist. I don't play divine spell casters ever so when I was drafted into the divine roll I agreed only if I could play that class. They have a nice Lovecraftian feel to them and their Dark Knowledge power is very nice. Their biggest bonus is they can cast any divine spell written, not only cleric, but also druid, paladin and ranger, and anything else you can find (I believe even Arcane Domain spells if you find them written). If you're in a game with a lot of undead, outsiders, aberrations, magical beasts, or elementals or even if you just want to play divine without being a walking box of band aids, Archivist is the way to go in my opinion.

[Neon Knight]

If I remember correctly, the 3.5e Ninja got a little bit of flak for not being a good team player. Most of its abilities and the employment of said abilities only work alone or in the company of other Ninja; most other classes would give away the Ninja.

As a loner to perform quick ambush assassinations, the Ninja was good, but as a team member PC its use was limited.

I don't have first hand experience with the Ninja, mind you, but that was the summary of most reports on its effectiveness.

[OneFamiliarFace]

I'm all for the Hexblade as awesome-town. The main problem was that I don't even think they could stand toe-to-toe with a paladin, at any level. And they were supposed to kind of be the arcane version of that class. Especially with the Duskblade and a lot of the fighter/caster PrCs, the Hexblade was something you'd really only play for flavor, and if that flavor was bad luck, there were also a plethora of classes having to do with luck which were far more effective.

Still, I hold a special place in my heart for the Hexblade and his only real ability: Hexblade's curse.

I think I'm gonna go see if I can't make a winner out of him in 4e!

[Arcane_Snowman]

Archivist is extremely strong on the basis that they can learn EVERY (and I mean every) single Divine spell there is, they are not limited to a spells list as the Wizard is, and I think I recall some cheesy Warlock trick that allows you to manufacture ANY (as in any and every spell, divine or arcane) given spell as a divine spell, thus enabling the Archivist to acquire all the horribly nasty spells that are only available to Wizards, and combine them with all the nasty spells that are only available to Clerics and Druids.

I really, really like Spirit Shaman. In terms of raw power, it is not as good as a Druid, but in terms of spellcasting it is far superior. It has in my mind got the best (and I really mean the best) form of spellcasting available to any class. The only thing is, that even that is not enough to compensate for the lack of Wild Shape.

Hexblade and Spellthief suffer from the same problem as Paladin and Ranger, they have abilities from two different classes, which have been watered down too much, while not having new special features to make up for their lack of power. If their spells were to be a bit more useful, they might be competitive (I recall having house ruled in a Prestige Spellthief on occasion, and I've also done some work on making a more interesting Hexblade)

The problem with Wu Jen and Beguiler (and Beguiler has the same issue as the sorcerer, it acquires spells one level later) is that they have set spells lists, although it does mention in the other books, that specifically themed spells that fit with the classes, should be included on the spells lists, they are still pretty much closed off from a lot of possibilities.

Duskblade is a neat class that I find enjoyable to play on occasion.

Swashbuckler does have its uses, but they tend to mostly in the region of 3 level dips or for the purpose of Daring Outlaw (I think its name is)

All I know is that the Factotum is made of 100% pure WIN.
But yes, Saph, the Duskblade is most awesome as well.

Indeed, Factotum is my favorite class, its made of win and awesome.

I was never really that impressed with the Knight to be honest.

Lets not go into the War Mage, it is a horrible class, based on a horrible school of magic and is horribly weak.

[Darrin]

What about the Archivist? Or the Ninja? Swashbuckler anyone? Spirit Shaman and Knight want hugs. Does anyone love the Wu Jen or the Hexblade? I know these classes aren't optimal (or even very good in some cases) but surely the Archivist, at the VERY least (though Dread Necro is good, Knight's not terrible, Duskblade is decent, etc), should get mentioned sometimes, though he almost never is.

Most of them fall somewhere in the middle. But if you want the off-the-cuff opinion of someone who's never played any of these classes...

Archivist leans quite heavily toward the deeper "borken!" end of the pool. It doesn't get talked about too much because it requires a *lot* of research and effort, moreso than your usual wizard, to track down the optimum spells. The number of sourcebooks and the time to dig through them and dig out the really juicy spells is just simply exhaustive. Some DMs preserve their sanity by restricting which sourcebooks you can mine, or making research of obscure spells tougher.

Ninja was another attempt to make a playable monk, and by most opinions it didn't work so well. To be fair, the designers did try to avoid some of the monk problems, and attempted to make some of the Ninja abilities work together, such as Sudden Strike and Ghost Step. But Sudden Strike is more difficult to use than Sneak Attack, and once you get up past the easy CRs, monsters that can see invisible opponents can become pretty common. The Ninja frequently gets overlooked because anything it can do, a rogue can usually do better.

Swashbuckler has a couple problems. "Grace", for example... would have been much more elegant to just give them a good Ref save. It also becomes a complete snorefest after level 3. It could use some fighter bonus feats or a variety of rogue special abilities... instead, it gets a few bells & whistles here and there, and eventually some ability damage on criticals. Like the Ninja, you can usually design a much more effective swashbuckler by playing a fighter or rogue.

Spirit Shaman I know almost nothing about, hated the artwork for it and never paid much attention to it. It appears to be someone's attempt to nerf the druid into a more balanced caster by turning the animal companion into an imaginary sparkle pony and removing wildshape. Which leaves the question, if you want a divine caster without the animal companion and wild shape, why the heck wouldn't you play a cleric? Clerics get domain powers, free cure spells, turning attempts to trade in for "I Win" buttons, and oh, hey... Divine Power.

Knight is another attempt to make a more decent Paladin/Cavalier. And from what I hear, it's actually pretty playable. It works because it fills a niche that the other base classes haven't addressed directly: battlefield control via the knight's challenge ability. That being said, it probably isn't talked about as much because it's a bit of a one-trick pony. Issue some challenges, charge it into a bloody pulp on your mount, and you're done.

Wu Jen is functionally very close to a wizard, just refluffed a bit. Slightly better spell selection than the shujenga, but not enough of the really good Batman spells to stand toe-to-toe with the other spellcasters. On the other hand, it's got enough of a selection that it may be one of the more balanced spellcasters... maybe closer what the wizard should have been, balance-wise.

Hex Blade we know is a lemon because the designer came right out afterwards and said it was underpowered. At the time, the designers thought mixing spellcasting with a full BAB would lead to balance problems. If you can track down the post, the designer suggested some fixes. However, the real fix for the Hex Blade is the Duskblade. If you want to mix spellcasting with a full BAB melee class, then the Duskblade has everything you need.

Hmm... what am I missing? Let's see...

Warmage. Another attempt at a spellcaster who isn't afraid to get his hands dirty... the warmage gets a lot of "meh" mostly because of the limited spell selection and the focus on direct damage, which is usually a sub-optimal strategy for spellcasting. What puts the nail in the Warmage's coffin, however, is the designers are deathly afraid of metamagic monster they created, and have attempted to put a leash on the metamagic shenanigans with the "Sudden" versions. For a direct-damage blaster, though, metamagic you can only use 1/day just plain stinks. If you want to do a direct damage blaster, you can get a lot more bang for your buck with another spellcasting class.

Favored Soul is a nerf of the cleric, much like the spirit shaman was a nerf of the druid. You want to Divine Power the fighter into a weeping puddle of shame? Fine, but you lose domain powers and converting turning attempts to Divine Metacheese. As a class, it's not bad... more balanced, maybe what the cleric should have been, but anything it can do the cleric can still do better.

Shujenga is the divine version of a sorcerer, and normally that would put it at the top of the pile, but what sinks it toward the bottom is a very limited spell selection. This could easily have been fixed with some sourcebook support, but it didn't get any. I like the flavor, but a good example of too much flavor handcuffing usability.

Healer is frequently idenfitied as underpowered because they took one thing the cleric does pretty well (cast cure spells) and stripped out everything else. So you're stuck being That Cleric. Yes, the one that does absolutely nothing but run up to people and heal them. Except you cannot heal hopeless boredom... ugh. The one thing it does that no other class does... it can cast more spells per day. So... hmmm. Yeah, have fun with that.

Scout is sort of a wilderness rogue, but the designers seem to be afraid of skirmish damage, and have been loathe to give a lot of it out, even to the class that's supposed to specialize in it. As a "tweener", the Scout may be a little too diluted... if you want a skill monkey, the rogue can do the same thing a scout can do, and has more sneak attack damage. If you want a wilderness-type that can skill-monkey and fight... the ranger is a better fighter, and isn't too shabby in the skill department either.

Spellthief I know very little about, but its signature ability depends on going up against other spellcasters, which tend to be the most powerful classes in the game. So you have to get close to a spellcaster, surprise them with a sneak attack, and then if you're lucky you can use one of their spells against them on a later turn... not exactly a class for the faint of heart. It seems to me, though, if you want to steal things, the rogue does that pretty darned well. And if you want to cast spells, well, be a spellcaster. And if you want to do both... Arcane Trickster's pretty easy to qualify for.

Marshall is... okay, you're in charge of fighters, but you have a medium BAB. Huh... so you're some kind of REMF or a bard who can't sing or cast spells? Ok, well, the extra move actions are nice, since extra actions in D&D = Win Button, but while the marshall starts off with some interesting but minor buffs, it just doesn't go anywhere in the higher levels.

Dragon Shaman is supposed to be some sort of nod to how mighty dragons are, but *real* dragons have a better-than-mediocre BAB, rip-your-lungs-out kind of melee damage, a breath weapon that can do more than mildly annoy enemies, more HP than you can shake a 10-ft. pole at, fly way way way before ECL 19, cast real spells, and wouldn't be caught dead using some kind of wimpy "aura". Other than that, the dragon shaman suffers from the same problem that the Marshall does: starts off pretty decent, but very weak finish.

Well, that should be more than enough from me.

[ghost_warlock]

Hexblade, like the paladin, suffers in that it's primary class ability has extremely limited uses/day without the benefit of enhancing feats outside of a handful published in an obscure issue of Dragon Magazine. It's other class abilities (Arcane Resistance and Mettle) are nice but not super-good since there's other ways to go about getting similar abilities from other classes.

The spirit shaman is a fun-looking class with a cool mechanic and some interesting abilities but suffers from some MAD for it's spellcasting, which is a major pain for anyone wishing to play one and still be competent at other things.

Wu Jen and Shugenja are interesting classes, but both are typically only considered for Oriental camapaigns and then only if the DM won't allow wizards and clerics, respectively since the latter classes are more powerful.

Part of the issue is also that WotC hasn't offered much of any support for these classes in the form of extra feats or PrCs benefitting them specifically (except the Wu Jen's watchful spirit ability, which is actually kind of lame).

I see the spellthief mentioned fairly often and it has few feats published for it in books other than the one it was introduced in. It's superior to the arcane trickster, but probably doesn't get as much love as the beguiler since that class is simply better on the spellcasting side (which is the true path to power, after all).

Hex Blade we know is a lemon because the designer came right out afterwards and said it was underpowered. At the time, the designers thought mixing spellcasting with a full BAB would lead to balance problems. If you can track down the post, the designer suggested some fixes.

Here's a link to what the designer says he might have done differently.

[Arcane_Snowman]

I see the spellthief mentioned fairly often and it has few feats published for it in books other than the one it was introduced in. It's superior to the arcane trickster, but probably doesn't get as much love as the beguiler since that class is simply better on the spellcasting side (which is the true path to power, after all).

Superior to the Arcane Trickster How? (I know Unseen Seer is a vast improvement, but I haven't heard anything about the Spellthief even comparing with the Arcane Trickster in anything, except perhaps skills, and those don't really matter when you have wizard levels anywho) Arcane Trickster still has spells higher than level 4, has Orbs of X (which work particularly well with Sneak Attack I might add, that or the Acid Splatter reserve feat), while it might be a bit harder to enter than the Spellthief, but thats about it.

[ghost_warlock]

Superior to the Arcane Trickster How? (I know Unseen Seer is a vast improvement, but I haven't heard anything about the Spellthief even comparing with the Arcane Trickster in anything, except perhaps skills, and those don't really matter when you have wizard levels anywho) Arcane Trickster still has spells higher than level 4, has Orbs of X (which work particularly well with Sneak Attack I might add, that or the Acid Splatter reserve feat), while it might be a bit harder to enter than the Spellthief, but thats about it.

The soonest you can enter arcane trickster is 9th level (2d6 SA, 3rd-level spells prereqs, so you're looking at a 10th-level entry as a sorcerer). The spellthief has both spells, steal spells, steal spell-like ability, and +2d6 sneak attack by 5th level without having to do anything other than simply advance in the class.

Spellthief also has the almighty UMD as a class skill, which synergies well with Cha being the class' primary casting stat. Arcane Trickster doesn't have UMD as a class skill, which I find franky absurd.

[Sinfire Titan]

Superior to the Arcane Trickster How? (I know Unseen Seer is a vast improvement, but I haven't heard anything about the Spellthief even comparing with the Arcane Trickster in anything, except perhaps skills, and those don't really matter when you have wizard levels anywho) Arcane Trickster still has spells higher than level 4, has Orbs of X (which work particularly well with Sneak Attack I might add, that or the Acid Splatter reserve feat), while it might be a bit harder to enter than the Spellthief, but thats about it.

The soonest you can enter arcane trickster is 9th level (2d6 SA, 3rd-level spells prereqs, so you're looking at a 10th-level entry as a sorcerer). The spellthief has both spells, steal spells, steal spell-like ability, and +2d6 sneak attack by 5th level without having to do anything other than simply advance in the class.

Spellthief also has the almighty UMD as a class skill, which synergies well with Cha being the class' primary casting stat. Arcane Trickster doesn't have UMD as a class skill, which I find franky absurd.

Spellthief 1/Wizard 5/Unseen Seer 8/Arcane Trickster 6 with Master Spellthief is actually very viable. Spellthief 20 just sucks outright due to lack of spellcasting enemies and crappy sneak attack bonuses.

[Vael Nir]

The spellthief can also use acid splatter to sneak and steal spells with. He can also gain buffs through other party members willing to let him grab buffs off them (including "personal" buffs like divine power), lower spell resistance of a target, lower energy resistance, steal SLA's, use arcane sight as a SLA (pretty useful imo), *automatically know* all spells prepared/known by a target past lvl 13, UMD and some other fun stuff (absorb spell).

Of course, I would never play one in a low magic campaign. High magic, there's always loads of fun things to do.

[Sinfire Titan]

Scout is sort of a wilderness rogue, but the designers seem to be afraid of skirmish damage, and have been loathe to give a lot of it out, even to the class that's supposed to specialize in it. As a "tweener", the Scout may be a little too diluted... if you want a skill monkey, the rogue can do the same thing a scout can do, and has more sneak attack damage. If you want a wilderness-type that can skill-monkey and fight... the ranger is a better fighter, and isn't too shabby in the skill department either.

Scout's actually a very good class compared to the Spellthief and Ninja. It comes close to what the Rogue can do, but the differences between the two put a gap between their abilities (Rogue comes out ahead with UMD as a class skill). That said, Cloistered Cleric 1/Scout 4/Ranger 15 is one hell of a skirmisher build, especially with TWFing.

Marshall is... okay, you're in charge of fighters, but you have a medium BAB. Huh... so you're some kind of REMF or a bard who can't sing or cast spells? Ok, well, the extra move actions are nice, since extra actions in D&D = Win Button, but while the marshall starts off with some interesting but minor buffs, it just doesn't go anywhere in the higher levels.

Marshall sucks. End of story. Any time I have a player who wants to play one, I show them the Sublime Marshall fix and they change their minds almost instantly.

Dragon Shaman is supposed to be some sort of nod to how mighty dragons are, but *real* dragons have a better-than-mediocre BAB, rip-your-lungs-out kind of melee damage, a breath weapon that can do more than mildly annoy enemies, more HP than you can shake a 10-ft. pole at, fly way way way before ECL 19, cast real spells, and wouldn't be caught dead using some kind of wimpy "aura". Other than that, the dragon shaman suffers from the same problem that the Marshall does: starts off pretty decent, but very weak finish.

Well, that should be more than enough from me.

Dragon Shaman is actually playable past 4th level, something the Marshall can't hold a candle to. It plays to around 14th or so, though most of what it can do the Dragonfire Adept does better.

And for my 2 cents:

Incarnate: Looks can fool everyone easily. This class looks underpowered and heavily restrictive, but it actually can be a potent character in its own right. If you crunch some numbers, you'll find that the Incarnate can pull ahead of everyone who isn't able to cast 5th level spells (or has a Strength score in the mid 60's). The Incarnate can get higher attack bonuses, better skill checks, and a high armor class faster than a majority of the other classes out there. Spellcasters come out ahead of them, but they can hold their own thanks to a few of their Soulmelds.

Totemist: I honestly feel that this class is one of the strongest for melee combat. The number of attacks they can make is sickening in its own right, and they have all of the mobility the full casters enjoy without the use of magic items. If you need proof, I can make a Totemist 4/Barbarian 2 that can solo a Young Adult White Dragon (barely though).

Soulborn: This class is only slightly better than the Divine Mind. Otherwise, it isn't worth a damn.

Divine Mind: Speaking of crap...

Ardent: I've heard they compare to the Psion. Never seen a real one in action though.

Lurk: The holes in the class aside, its a decent Rogue replacement.

Factotum: Where the hell do I start with this class? Aside from the facts that it is a Jack of All Trades that works, I'd say it is a great class. Just add Font of Inspiration for awesome.

[Te'Shen]

. . .
Warmage. Another attempt at a spellcaster who isn't afraid to get his hands dirty... the warmage gets a lot of "meh" mostly because of the limited spell selection and the focus on direct damage, which is usually a sub-optimal strategy for spellcasting. What puts the nail in the Warmage's coffin, however, is the designers are deathly afraid of metamagic monster they created, and have attempted to put a leash on the metamagic shenanigans with the "Sudden" versions. For a direct-damage blaster, though, metamagic you can only use 1/day just plain stinks. If you want to do a direct damage blaster, you can get a lot more bang for your buck with another spellcasting class. . .

The warmage is fine. He's one of the nicer archers out there... the problem happens when you think of him as a caster. It's kind of like the warlock actually, except the warlock is just more interesting.

And as for scout, it's a good skill monkey class. Add the swift hunter feat and levels of ranger to taste and you're good.

[GryffonDurime]

I have an unabashed love of the Wu Jen. Their (admittedly sparse) unique spells are among some of the simplest and fun effects in the player's toolbox: things like Body Outside Body, Giant Size, and Arboreal Transformation. I agree that the Wu Jen's toned-down spell list is much better in terms of balance, as well.

Not to mention that Epic Spell Secrets are heinous.

[Bayar]

Here is one that was unmentioned: Truenamer (from tome of magic). It was unmentioned and should not be mentioned again.

no seroiously, the class is busted.

[CASTLEMIKE]

Spellthief -1 dip with a Spellcaster using the Master Spellthief feat does a lot of what the base class is supposed to do.

http://realmshelps.dandello.net/cgi-..._Spellthief,CS

Spellthief -5 rocks in a planar campaign or summoning campaign doing things like stealing Wishes from Genies. (Basically the spell like abilities your DM/GM will normally limit or twist to the party detriment)

I like Archivist but not the Dark Lore it is so much easier just to give the class Bardic Lore.

I'd like to see an official Arcane equivalent to the Spirit Shaman not the poor Dragon magazine update for the Sorcerer similar to the old Shair class in the Al-Qadim setting.

Wujen are flavorful but cheated mechanically with their limited spell list.

[Aneantir]

The soonest you can enter arcane trickster is 9th level (2d6 SA, 3rd-level spells prereqs, so you're looking at a 10th-level entry as a sorcerer). The spellthief has both spells, steal spells, steal spell-like ability, and +2d6 sneak attack by 5th level without having to do anything other than simply advance in the class.

8th level for Arcane Trickster, actually.

Spellthief 1/Rogue 1/Wizard 5/Arcane Trickster works fine.

And as far as the spellthief actually goes, it's a great dip class for arcane casters. Dip into it for one level, take the Master Spellthief feat from Complete Scoundrel at level 6 to have your spellthief level stack with your arcane caster level for determining caster level and spells you can steal, and gives you arcane casting in light armor without a failure chance. Then just tack on Battle Caster and get yourself a suit Mithral Full Plate and you're good to go.

Also, Spellthief is hilarious in a Gestalt game. Spellthief 3/Wizard 3 with the Master Spellthief feat = CL 6. So, by the time you get to later levels you'll have a caster level through the roof, allowing you to laugh at caster level checks, give you silly amounts of damage dice for spells, and have buffs that last all day long without needed you to use Extend Spell on them.

[CASTLEMIKE]

Binder/Caster Anima Mages are pretty cool and fun to play if you can get entry with a feat trick.

I like feat tricks IMO the way for WOTC to clearly bar early entry into a PRC is to simply have a single or multiple appropiate minimum skill rank(s) required for entry into the PRC since it is basically impossible to defeat the mechanic without DM permission (Things like Mortally Possessed by a Diety will do it).

[Arcane_Snowman]

The soonest you can enter arcane trickster is 9th level (2d6 SA, 3rd-level spells prereqs, so you're looking at a 10th-level entry as a sorcerer). The spellthief has both spells, steal spells, steal spell-like ability, and +2d6 sneak attack by 5th level without having to do anything other than simply advance in the class.

Spellthief also has the almighty UMD as a class skill, which synergies well with Cha being the class' primary casting stat. Arcane Trickster doesn't have UMD as a class skill, which I find franky absurd.

That is true, although it doesn't matter that much, since the prerequisites already include sneak attack (something I commonly attain with a level of rogue) you only have to buy UMD as a cross class skill, while still having the class skill maximum allowed ranks, and quite frankly, there should be high Intelligence in the build that two skill points won't be that big an issue.

The spellthief can also use acid splatter to sneak and steal spells with. He can also gain buffs through other party members willing to let him grab buffs off them (including "personal" buffs like divine power), lower spell resistance of a target, lower energy resistance, steal SLA's, use arcane sight as a SLA (pretty useful imo), *automatically know* all spells prepared/known by a target past lvl 13, UMD and some other fun stuff (absorb spell)..

Acid Splatter works on the basis of dealing 1d6/level of the highest acid based spell, and as such there is a significant difference between the 9d6 that the Spellthief can dish out (maximum), against the 9d6+SA that the Trickster can dish out.
Although the Steal Spells and buffs are really cool, they are highly situational.

As far as I've seen with regards to Tome of Magic, Binder is the only thing of notice despite the other two having interesting ways of casting.

As to Magic of Incarnum, its wonderful book and absolutely lovable, I was playing a Totemist 4/Barbarian 2/Totemrager 3/Bear Warrior 1/Warshaper 2 in one of my previous games, and I absolutely loved it

[monty]

Here is one that was unmentioned: Truenamer (from tome of magic). It was unmentioned and should not be mentioned again.

no seroiously, the class is busted.

I'm pretty sure a Factotum is a better Truenamer than a Truenamer.

[Deth Muncher]

I'm pretty sure a Factotum is a better Truenamer than a Truenamer.

Are Factotums better skillmonkeys than Rogues? If not, I'd vote a Rogue with Able Learner would be a better Truenamer than a Truenamer.

And also, Kos, as you may recall, the Dread Necro IS a great class. It's flufftastical, and if you play it right you can brizzake it. (Yes, brizzake.) I believe I was going to have 200 HD of undead at my beck and call as a 10th level Character? Plus basically having FH d8+X? Delicious.

[Chronos]

Superior to the Arcane Trickster How? (I know Unseen Seer is a vast improvement, but I haven't heard anything about the Spellthief even comparing with the Arcane Trickster in anything, except perhaps skills, and those don't really matter when you have wizard levels anywho)

If you think skills don't matter when you have wizard levels, then why not just go Wiz20?

Incarnate: Looks can fool everyone easily. This class looks underpowered and heavily restrictive, but it actually can be a potent character in its own right. If you crunch some numbers, you'll find that the Incarnate can pull ahead of everyone who isn't able to cast 5th level spells (or has a Strength score in the mid 60's). The Incarnate can get higher attack bonuses, better skill checks, and a high armor class faster than a majority of the other classes out there. Spellcasters come out ahead of them, but they can hold their own thanks to a few of their Soulmelds.

The funny thing about the incarnum base classes is, the less you have of them, the better off you are. A level N incarnate can make skill checks comparable to a level N rogue, for instance, in a small number of skills, since the incarnate needs both soulmeld bonuses and cross-class ranks to keep up. But an incarnate 1/rogue (N-1) can do better than either. Or throw in three levels of Umbral Disciple (which is actually pretty nice), or Uncanny Trickster.

The Marshall is actually in the same boat: Almost anything he can do, he can do at first level. He just can't do everything at first level. But there's usually some particular thing you want to do, which is the reason you take the class. As a result, both Incarnate and Marshall end up being great 1-level dips; they're just not so good to stay in.

I'm pretty sure a Factotum is a better Truenamer than a Truenamer.

In so far as a Factotum can actually make a True Speech check once per day (or maybe twice a day, using UMD and Arcane Dilettante to get skill-boosting spells), while a Truenamer can make it zero times per day.

[Innis Cabal]

Ya, they are. They are -the- skill monkey