4E Multiclassing Feats that Work-PEACH

[SpydersWebbing]

Here's some feats CarpeGuitarrem and I drew up. We need some help balancing them out. Comments are really needed. Thanks!

These are our design goals. Multiclassing SHOULD:
Aid the role you already have
Give you powers that will scale with all levels
Give you that nice flavor of another class that you'd like without compromising the quality of your original class.
Initiate of the Faith
[Cleric]
Prereq: Wisdom 13
Benefit: You gain the Heal skill as a class skill. You may use Healing Word, but instead of the bonus healing, use this table. The numbers to the left indicate the level the bonus increases. You count as a cleric for the purposes of qualifying for class-specific feats and paragon paths. You may use holy symbols for whenever a cleric power lets you use an implement to give it a bonus.

1: +1d4 HP
6: +2d4 HP
11: +3d4 HP
16: +4d4 HP
21: +5d4 HP
26: +6d4 HP


Student of War
[Fighter]
Prereq: Strength 13
Benefit: You gain the Intimidate skill as a class skill. You gain the Fighter Weapon Talent class feature. You count as a fighter for the purposes of qualifying for class specific feats and paragon paths. You gain a fighter at-will attack power, and may use it normally.


Apprentice of the Holy Battle
[Paladin]
Prereq: Strength or Charisma 13
Benefit: You gain the Religion skill as a class skill. You gain the Channel Divinity class feature, may use all the default Channel Divinity powers as per normal use, and now may take Channel Divinity feats. You may use a Holy Avenger or a holy symbol as an implement for your paladin powers. You count as a paladin for the purposes of qualifying for class specific feats and paragon paths. You may swap out an at-will attack power that you know for an at-will attack power that is on the Paladin list.

Wanderer of the Wilds
[Ranger]
Prereq: Strength or Dexterity 13
Benefit: You gain the Nature skill as a class skill. You gain Fighting Style as a Class Feature, and must choose one of the options presented. Choose an at-will attack power that you know already. You may swap it out with an at-will attack power from the Ranger's list. You count as a ranger for the....blah blah blah, you know the rest by now.

Street Urchin
[Rogue]
Prereq: Dexterity 13
Benefit: You get Stealth as a class skill. Blah blah blah blah from the previous stuff about qualifying....You gain Sneak attack as a class feature, but change the bonus damage to thus:

1-10: +1d6
11-20: +2d6
21-30: +3d6



Pact-Maker
[Warlock]
Prereq: Charisma or Constitution 13
Benefit: You gain Insight as a class skill. Blah blah blah blah. You gain the Warlock's Curse as a class feature, but change the damage to thus:

1-10: +1d4
11-20: +2d4
21-30: +3d4

Student of the Battle Front
[Warlord]
Prereq: Intelligence or Charisma 13
Benefit: You gain Diplomacy as a class skill. You gain Commanding Presence as a class feature, and must choose one of the options presented. Blah blah blah blah blah. You may swap any of your at-will powers from your original list for an at-will power found in the warlord's list.

Arcane Apprentice
[Wizard]
Prereq: Intelligence 13
Benefit: You gain Arcana as a class skill. You gain Arcane Implement Mastery as a class feature, and must choose one of the options presented. You may choose an At-Will power present in the Wizard power list. You may swap it out with an at-will attack power you already know.

[Yakk]

Every single one of these feats is hugely better than any other feat in the 4e PHB.

Do you see a problem with that?

[Myatar_Panwar]

Whats wrong with the normal 4e multiclass feats? They do scale. Every time you level you can choose to act as if you had just taken the feat for the first time, swapping powers accordingly.

Edit: And fluff should be solved by the player, you don't want a feat telling you how to act. If I understand one of your design goals correctly.

[Edge of Dreams]

Rather than swap-ing an at-will, I recomend every multi-class feat give one of the target class's at-wills as an encounter power.

The amount of class features you give with these (sneak attack constantly, etc.) is a little on the strong side. However, it is important that certain abilities be actually or at least virtually given (like channel divinity) to fix issues with qualifying for certain feats.

In fact, I think there's a thread over on the wizards board that's doing this too, but I don't have the link.

[Yakk]

Really, if you want to fix this kind of thing, fix the paragon path substitution option.

[Erk]

Multiclassing needs to limit the original class, causing the character to sacrifice some specialisation for versatility of action and choice. This does nothing of the sort.

I suggest, if you want things to scale and allow more multiclass options, adding in more multiclass feats that allow other powers from the original class. In fact, I'm already working on that, but you might come up with something different. Having more feats, rather than one incredible feat, makes characters able to pursue multiclass options at the expense of not being able to focus on feats that would make their base class actions better.

Remember when making feats (or anything) to pick out a couple "baseline" feats from RAW to compare to while making your own. Every so often, look at your feat and then look at, say, Power Attack. If you can see no reason to choose Power Attack over one of your rewritten/new feats (and there is not) then the new feats are too good.

[Totally Guy]

Really, if you want to fix this kind of thing, fix the paragon path substitution option.

I've not got a character that's got anywhere near this far in a game yet but can you point out the problem just so I know about it. Can't see it from here, but that's because I'm way off on the horizon.

[Yakk]

Well, at paragon levels, you simply replace your paragon path with getting (relatively) low level powers from your original class.

You do not get any features (which is half of the benefit of Paragon paths) from the class you are multi-classing into. So you lose a bunch of new features.

Paragon Path powers are, for the most part, good enough to use at level 30. I don't think the multiclass ones you get are that good. . .

Fixing this would require a fair amount of work.

[SpydersWebbing]

Thanks for the feedback, guys! As time had gone on I liked the feats less and less, but couldn't figure out what to do with them. I don't like the PHB entry level multiclass feats because they really don't do the other class justice. Seriously, the fighter feat from the base sucks badly, because if it comes into play at all it only really affects the battlefield for two seconds. The same goes with the rogue multiclass feat. You have to set things up very very carefully, and even then it's as good as the ranger feat.

I'll have things changed up later after Carpe and I talk about it, and try to figure out what to change these things to.

[Shadow_Elf]

Really, if you want to fix this kind of thing, fix the paragon path substitution option.

A better multiclass-based option for paragon paths is to simply take a PP from the other class. Imagine RPing an Artful Dodger Divine Oracle! You could use the auto-crit power in combo with a vorpal weapon and assassin's point to completely screw over some sucker. And you get the "can't be surprised" stuff that is great for a rogue to have. And you can heal yourself 1/day to boot! The only unfortunate thing about this is that Feytouched multiclassers get the short end of the stick, because they have many features and powers that depend on Warlock's Curse, which a multiclasser cannot make use of.

[Myatar_Panwar]

Well, at paragon levels, you simply replace your paragon path with getting (relatively) low level powers from your original class.

You do not get any features (which is half of the benefit of Paragon paths) from the class you are multi-classing into. So you lose a bunch of new features.

Paragon Path powers are, for the most part, good enough to use at level 30. I don't think the multiclass ones you get are that good. . .

Fixing this would require a fair amount of work.

Well, I'm not sure if you completely understand how it works. Cause, just like with the normal multi-class feats, whenever you gain a new level you can choose to switch it out for whatever you can use then. So, that level 7 encounter power you got from your other class can be switched later for a level 13 one. When you get to the end of that tree, you essentially have half of both classes powers. I find that it works really good.

So you are trading out paragon features for a wider array of powers at higher levels.

[Totally Guy]

Well, I'm not sure if you completely understand how it works. Cause, just like with the normal multi-class feats, whenever you gain a new level you can choose to switch it out for whatever you can use then. So, that level 7 encounter power you got from your other class can be switched later for a level 13 one. When you get to the end of that tree, you essentially have half of both classes powers. I find that it works really good.

So you are trading out paragon features for a wider array of powers at higher levels.

I don't think that's quite right.

I'll give an example the way I read it. So say I've paragon multiclassed and I've hit level 13. As I've got all three power swap feats I can swap them for free.

That is I gain back the original encounter power I gave up then I can choose to swap any encounter power of either level 3 or 7 to one of the second class(assuming the 13th level power replacement is a level 1 power being swapped for a level 13). I guess there are about 8 things to choose from.
Then I gain back the utility power I gave up and reswap the power from levels 2, 6 or 10 for any utility power from from the second class. Must be about 12 options here.
Then I gain back the daily power I gave up and reswap a power from level 1, 5 or 9. So about 12 options here again.
Then for my 13th level power benefit I swap a level 1 encounter power for one of level 13 (because I consider any other trade suboptimal) I have the choice of powers from both class 1 and 2. Choice between about 8.
Then I can make use of the standard retraining level up benefit. And considering I'm happy with skills and feats (that I don't have many of since I locked all the multiclassing ones) I can swap any power I have for one of the same level. And I can do this regardless of whether I'm swapping a class 1 power for class 2 or any combination. So I have double the choices a paragon path character has at this stage.

So I still have a level 7 extra instead of a level 11 paragon power and a 10th level instead of a 12th level paragon power but both those paragon powers were locked in by a single choice. I also have fewer class features that would have otherwise been gained from a paragon path.

Have I got this right? It is a bit confusing.

But all those choices at level up must go some way towards a neat combo or two. And as I said before I don't even have a character as I'm DMing our fourth campaign and my players aren't quite up to level 2 yet.

[Yakk]

You have to set things up very very carefully, and even then it's as good as the ranger feat.

The Ranger Quarry from multiclass only lasts a single round, by the way. :-) (Errata'd)

For the cost of a single feat, you are not supposed to steal the spotlight from the other class.

A better multiclass-based option for paragon paths is to simply take a PP from the other class. Imagine RPing an Artful Dodger Divine Oracle!

True, but I'd like a "Multiclass Paragon Path" that actually, you know, results in you being multiclassed.

I'm trying to say that giving up the entire Paragon Path features might be worth stealing some spotlight. :-)

Well, I'm not sure if you completely understand how it works. Cause, just like with the normal multi-class feats, whenever you gain a new level you can choose to switch it out for whatever you can use then. So, that level 7 encounter power you got from your other class can be switched later for a level 13 one. When you get to the end of that tree, you essentially have half of both classes powers. I find that it works really good.

So you are trading out paragon features for a wider array of powers at higher levels

If I remember rightly (don't have my books with me), they tell you specifically what level of powers you can get. And you cannot in general "retrain" powers up levels (you can only do that to feats).

Remember: I'm talking about the PARAGON PATH multiclassing option, where you take as your PARAGON PATH "multiclass into another class".

The multiclass feats work fine -- they give you some multiclass flavor and are not over/under powered ridiculously: burn 1 feat for some limited class features, and then 1 feat to swap an encounter attack/daily attack/utility power. What I'm taking about is the decision to burn your paragon path on "more multiclassing".

[Zemro]

I believe this is relevant to the topic at hand.

[Myatar_Panwar]

I believe this is relevant to the topic at hand.

Ah, I knew I saw that somewhere. Well, there ya go Yakk. The book was phrased kind of odd at that stage, just glad someone asked.

[Yakk]

I will assume that eats your swap, however.

So you end up with:
1 Swapped encounter attack, daily attack and utility power.
The paragon-path replacement attack, daily attack, and utility powers.
Your core powers.

But you only get to upgrade 1 power when you get a replacement notch...

You get 2 utility, 2 encounter attack, and 2 daily attack replacements every 10 levels.

I will have to build the chart for what your level caps end up being...

[Totally Guy]

The standard retrain thing I mentioned does not work. Retrained powers must be from the same class.

I might point out that the 11th level paragon power that turns into a 7th level power doesn't drop 4 levels to screw you you over, it drops 4 levels because there are no encounter powers for levels 11, 10, 9 and 8. Thinking about it in this way might mean that the 11th level paragon powers might be balanced with the 7th level encounter powers by design. Although that still needs to be assessed.

Edit: Thought it best to compare with warlock as the paragon path and pact spells can be better directly compared. Seems the paragon granted powers are generally better than the level 7s.

[Yakk]

And note that the "multiclass paragon" path ... doesn't give you any new features.

Hence the idea, that you write a full multiclass paragon path implementation that gives (some) features from the class you are multiclassing into...