Best/Worst 3.X Book Discussion Thread

[Eldariel]

So, it seems like this particular thread is generating an awful lot conversation. It's also the OP's wish that the thread weren't used for discussing. So, in my feeble attempt to get this damn thing organized (I PMed a mod for help on the thread, but probably either messed something up in my request or they didn't feel the thread split necessary). Therefore, let this be a thread for discussion on picks and choices, the "why"s of Best/Worst 3.X Book-votes thread. Let me go first.


In response to Red Machine D's comments regarding Tome of Battle and the splatbooks' potential for Dragon Magazinezation:

Just about every Wizards Expansion could've been 3 Dungeon Magazines instead. Luckily that's not the case though, since otherwise all online games would be running with just Core since nobody seems to allow Dungeon Magazine-stuff (and for a good reason, for most parts - I mean, Unseelie Fey *shudder*).

That said, Dungeonscape was one of the very few books where I didn't feel cheated once I got it. It had all the material I expected, an incredibly awesome core class, a ton of great ACFs and overall just material I can use! That's rare in a WoTC book.


As far as Tome of Battle goes, fact is that Warblade/Crusader/Swordsage still can't hang around with Wizard/Cleric/Druid (unless Wizard spends his time casting Fireballs, Cleric casting Cure X Wounds and Druid in his normal form casting Call Lightning with a monkey companion) - like, not in the same room level (literally - you can never actually hit a Wizard past level ~6, level 1 Druid can take on a level 1 Warblade with his companion and live to tell the tale, level 7 Cleric is a Fighter, except with ~+6-+7 to hit and damage by comparison...and the whole spell-thing). But this thread wasn't about commenting others' comments. We really need to create an auxillary thread.

[Red Machine D]

As far as Tome of Battle goes, fact is that Warblade/Crusader/Swordsage still can't hang around with Wizard/Cleric/Druid (unless Wizard spends his time casting Fireballs, Cleric casting Cure X Wounds and Druid in his normal form casting Call Lightning with a monkey companion) - like, not in the same room level (literally - you can never actually hit a Wizard past level ~6, level 1 Druid can take on a level 1 Warblade with his companion and live to tell the tale, level 7 Cleric is a Fighter, except with ~+6-+7 to hit and damage by comparison...and the whole spell-thing). But this thread wasn't about commenting others' comments. We really need to create an auxillary thread.

I have never seen a character go up against a Tome of Battle character of equal levels/abilites/etc. and not get completely crushed. I have, however, seen (in my own game, no less) a level 3 warblade single-handedly exterminate a five man band of ogres. I've also seen ToB characters render all other party members useless in combat as the crusader steps forward and does more than the other martial-type characters possibly could put together. It's just my personal experience that puts my opinion as ToB throwing D&D off the cliff of reason into the Pit of Dragonball Z. I hadn't even heard of Tome of Battle until I saw a warblade annihilate 14 kobold warriors by himself.

edit: I don't think that the Completes and Races books would be appropriate for splitting into bite-sized articles. I feel that those books were meant to be books. City/Dungeonscape, however, I felt just didn't have enough material to make it worth dropping money into above and beyond another medium that could have easily carried them in an alternative fashion. If you combined the two into one book, that would have been quite nice. Maybe add in a 3.5 conversion of Stronghold Builders' Guidebook to said single book and you'd have something worth dropping $30 on instead of just 150 pages of thematics stapled onto the ass end of the class info for factotum.

[Dhavaer]

I have never seen a character go up against a Tome of Battle character of equal levels/abilites/etc. and not get completely crushed. I have, however, seen (in my own game, no less) a level 3 warblade single-handedly exterminate a five man band of ogres.

Do you have a build for that warblade? Because unless that's a level 3 LeShay warblade, that's utterly implausible with any reasonable amount of luck.

[Red Machine D]

Do you have a build for that warblade? Because unless that's a level 3 LeShay warblade, that's utterly implausible with any reasonable amount of luck.

Bad news: The character was on Fantasy Grounds, and the computer that contains that particular copy of FG belongs to my ex-girlfriend.

Good news: She and I are still friends. I'll get it ASAP.

If it helps to narrow it down at all, I'm almost positive it was taken verbatim from CharOp.

[Tengu_temp]

I have, however, seen (in my own game, no less) a level 3 warblade single-handedly exterminate a five man band of ogres.

You mean an ogre marshal, an ogre rogue, an ogre barbarian, an ogre wizard, and a female ogre bard?

Sorry, had to.

[Bryn]

You mean an ogre marshal, an ogre rogue, an ogre barbarian, an ogre wizard, and a female ogre bard?

Sorry, had to.

For those people who have no idea what that was about, just in case there are any.

[Frownbear]

I have never seen a character go up against a Tome of Battle character of equal levels/abilites/etc. and not get completely crushed.

Level 3 is a particularly strong point for the Warblade. At level, say, 2 or 4, a Fighter or a Barbarian will be as consistently good. Sure, the Warblade gets a +2d6 damage strike, but the Fighter has Improved Trip, and Combat Reflexes and Power Attack, the Barbarian is raging for lots of damage constantly...

I have, however, seen (in my own game, no less) a level 3 warblade single-handedly exterminate a five man band of ogres.

How? The ogres attack at +8 for 2d8+7. Even a few hits would be devastating. This seems imposisble.

Entangle or Glitterdust seem like they'd do more than the Warblade.

I've also seen ToB characters render all other party members useless in combat as the crusader steps forward and does more than the other martial-type characters possibly could put together. It's just my personal experience that puts my opinion as ToB throwing D&D off the cliff of reason into the Pit of Dragonball Z. I hadn't even heard of Tome of Battle until I saw a warblade annihilate 14 kobold warriors by himself.

Kobold warriors aren't exactly chalenging.

The Crusader's strength lies in his ability to heal allies and keep enemies on him, not his damage output.

I'm going to have to ask for backup!

[Red Machine D]

You mean an ogre marshal, an ogre rogue, an ogre barbarian, an ogre wizard, and a female ogre bard?

Sorry, had to.

I lol'd though.

[Zeta Kai]

It's also the OP's wish that the thread weren't used for discussing.

I only said that because that thread descended into a 3-page near-flame-war just this side of civil. Inviting this debate is dangerous, due to the deeply felt sentiments regarding ToB (& 4E, to a certain extent). It has also been debated before. Good luck.

Also, a "five man band of ogres" should include the following: an ogre singer, 2 ogre guitarists, an ogre bassist, & an ogre drummer. Ogre roadies &/or groupies not included.

[Eldariel]

I only said that because that thread descended into a 3-page near-flame-war just this side of civil. Inviting this debate is dangerous, due to the deeply felt sentiments regarding ToB (& 4E, to a certain extent). It has also been debated before. Good luck.

Yes, but your words were very clear - you said the thread is for "votes only". Also, I trust in the playgrounders to keep things civil.


Red Machine D: A Fighter can do that too, and a Barbarian when properly built. The difference between a Fighter, a Barbarian and a Warblade is that you can screw many more things up for the Fighter and the Barbarian - you need to know which feats to pick, how to multiclass and Prestige Class out to be really efficient. Warblades need none of that, so they might appear more powerful out of the box, but AoO monster Fighters (either Counterattack-style Jack'B'Quick or battlefield control-style Chain Tripper), Dungeon Crashers, Überchargers and so on all do one thing better than a Warblade could.

As a bonus, they tend to all have a higher damage output than a Warblade - especially Barbarians excel in this with Whirling Frenzy, immense Strength-bonuses and so on practically stating that "you will take 200 damage no matter what you do", particularly past level 15.


And regardless of how good the Warblade and Crusader is, a Wizard/Cleric/Druid is going to be more powerful than them. On levels 1-5 or so, Martial Adepts are slightly more powerful (due to the higher hit die and thus survivability), but for the remaining 15 levels, casters grow more powerful (and Psions and Erudites and Artificers and Archivists and...well, casters). And even level 1-5, casters have many abilities that can just destroy an opponent.

Imagine if a Wizard simply cast Sleep on an Ogre. They have crappy Will-saves - the save DC will be 15-16 without even trying. And if one succeeds, so they have something like 25% to succeed. And that's burning a first level slot per Ogre. If the bunch of them gets close, the Wizard can simply Color Spray the whole of them, force massive Will-saves that maybe one of them makes (the Wizard can use terrain to avoid being charged, forcing them to make moves - I doubt they'll have the brains to come one at a time after one of their companions already fell). After that just go Coup de Gracing them with a Scythe. And this is a 1st level Wizard. Note that Sleep has the range of 110ft on first level, so they're like 4 increments away so the ones they'd be tossing javelins at -5 bonuses if they try to respond in kind. Likewise, Druid's Entangle and Cleric's Cause Fear can all decimate a band of Ogres and all of those are 1st level area of effect spells. A 3rd level Wizard/Cleric/Druid would be a whole other story.


And for example, Completes tend to be like this:
-Few new base classes
-A ton of new Prestige Classes
-Some notes about organizations and campaigns of whatever-is-the-Complete's-topic
-One new mechanic
-Few new toys

That's pretty much the kind of expansions we've been getting from Dragon Magazines all along. The only difference is that Dragon Magazine focuses less on PrCs and more on feats et al (having a relatively small number of PrCs per publication compared to the Completes). Dungeonscape pretty much follows the same model, except it's less about PrCs, more about the existing character classes (and how they play out in Dungeons), about the awesome that is Factotum (seriously, one of the best new classes they've printed ever) and how the dungeons are built and maintained.

[Da Beast]

I've also seen ToB characters render all other party members useless in combat as the crusader steps forward and does more than the other martial-type characters possibly could put together.

Please post a build for this Crusader who can outdamage everything ever. Show me a Crusader that can outdamage a well built fighter.

[FMArthur]

1d2 of Infinite damage trick?

[MeklorIlavator]

Which only works because of a cleric spell that makes your next roll an auto-crit. Plus, its a theoretical build, much like pun pun, the uber charger, and other such things, and thus generally isn't used in discussions like this.

[shadow_archmagi]

Actually, I recently saw a warblade dealing 40 damage with a strike at level five. I think he may have been mis-using it slight and confusing the way two weapon fighting works, but even if he was doing half that, 20 damage is still more than anyone else was doing.

Fights were not lasting long enough for him to run out of maneuvers, and on the rare occsasion he did run out, he was just as good as everyone else.

[Innis Cabal]

Crusaders have the con bomb....way more dmg then a single fighter could ever put out.

[MeklorIlavator]

Crusaders have the con bomb....way more dmg then a single fighter could ever put out.

Con Bomb?More letters

[CASTLEMIKE]

Do you have a build for that warblade? Because unless that's a level 3 LeShay warblade, that's utterly implausible with any reasonable amount of luck.

Maybe the DM/GM let the player's roll for the monster attacks on the PCs Depending on how he was attacked the PC could have kept winning inititative one on one.

[Leewei]

I find it remarkable that two of the best and worst by consensus (PHB2 / ELH) are the only two books outside of core that I own. What's more, I consider them much closer to each other in terms of content and usability than most apparently do.

In defense of the Epic Level Handbook:

*This book provides a way to continue your character past 20 -- well past 20, in fact. It's rife with balance issues so common in 3.0, it's true, however without the groundwork put down by this book, 20 is the end of the road.

*Several ultra-powerful encounter possibilities, at least a few of which may not involve combat. The Lashay is a nifty concept for a powerful, enigmatic NPC. The Atropal is a horror that still stands out as something truly terrifying yet pitiable.

*A good chunk of Epic feats, albeit with the need for rule-zeroing in some cases. Epic level PCs could expect to be able to do some very impressive things.

*Epic skill checks.

The biggest problem this book has isn't the balance issues; it's the fact that you must be over level 20 before you gain any material benefit from it as a player.


Downplaying the Player's Handbook II:

*The book is teeny. For the expense involved in binding and marketing the book, I'd hope for a bit more useful content.

*Character origins are pure throwaway. The section does nothing but occupy space.

*The organizations are only marginally better than origins. They'd make far more sense in a DMG variant than a PHB.

*Sample adventures to re-spec your characters. What the heck?!

Once you discount these, you have perhaps 30 useful pages which include gems such as the Beguiler and Duskblade, plus some feats and spells.

Don't get me wrong, I like those 30 pages a lot -- it's just that the ELH has easily more content that I'd find useful or at least interesting.

Back on topic, my candidates for Best and Worst books:

Best: PHB2 / ELH in a dead heat for reasons listed above.

Worst: Magic of Faerun. The book is a collection of spells that dump gasoline on the fires of caster dominance in the game. Many DMs I play with flat out ban anything Faerun-related due to these issues.

[Dhavaer]

Actually, I recently saw a warblade dealing 40 damage with a strike at level five. I think he may have been mis-using it slight and confusing the way two weapon fighting works, but even if he was doing half that, 20 damage is still more than anyone else was doing.

Fights were not lasting long enough for him to run out of maneuvers, and on the rare occsasion he did run out, he was just as good as everyone else.

That would probably be Insightful Strike, replaces your damage with a Concentration check. 40 damage sounds about right if the Warblade rolled a 20.

[Chronicled]

That would probably be Insightful Strike, replaces your damage with a Concentration check. 40 damage sounds about right if the Warblade rolled a 20.

20 (roll)+8 (ranks)+5 (Con bonus)+2 (masterwork item)+3 (psicrystal?)= 38. And that's being really generous; unless I missed something.

[Frownbear]

Con Bomb?More letters

Greater Divine Surge lets you sacrifice points of CON for extra AB and damage. Sacrifice a lot and you're pretty much guaranteed to hit (those swift-action-reroll gloves from the MIC take care of a 1!) and will do an enormous amount of damage. And if there's more enemies and you're level 17, you can use the strike that Heals you (as the spell) to get your CON back, even. If they don't kill you first.

[Dhavaer]

20 (roll)+8 (ranks)+5 (Con bonus)+2 (masterwork item)+3 (psicrystal?)= 38. And that's being really generous; unless I missed something.

8 ranks + 5 Con + 3 Skill Focus + 1 some feat from ToB I can't recall the name of (might be Blade Meditation) + 5 Vest of Casting (or something, from CompAdv) = 22. It could be done with a 16 Con.

[CASTLEMIKE]

I find it remarkable that two of the best and worst by consensus (PHB2 / ELH) are the only two books outside of core that I own. What's more, I consider them much closer to each other in terms of content and usability than most apparently do.

In defense of the Epic Level Handbook:

*This book provides a way to continue your character past 20 -- well past 20, in fact. It's rife with balance issues so common in 3.0, it's true, however without the groundwork put down by this book, 20 is the end of the road.

*Several ultra-powerful encounter possibilities, at least a few of which may not involve combat. The Lashay is a nifty concept for a powerful, enigmatic NPC. The Atropal is a horror that still stands out as something truly terrifying yet pitiable.

*A good chunk of Epic feats, albeit with the need for rule-zeroing in some cases. Epic level PCs could expect to be able to do some very impressive things.

*Epic skill checks.

The biggest problem this book has isn't the balance issues; it's the fact that you must be over level 20 before you gain any material benefit from it as a player.

Worst: Magic of Faerun. The book is a collection of spells that dump gasoline on the fires of caster dominance in the game. Many DMs I play with flat out ban anything Faerun-related due to these issues.

I have all 3. How about that Spellfire Wielder Feat? Probably my favorite in the game. The Spellfire Wielder PRC should probably be modeled after the Ultimate Magus PRC and include a Spell-Fiery Reserve feat. The Spellpool mechanic is great. The Travel Cloak is a pretty good deal at 1,200 GP. Moonblades are pretty cool for Minor Artifacts.

My main issue with Epic Level Handbook is it nerfed the Gods. Mortals are suddenly better spellcasters than the Gods of Magic.

My second issue is there are an awful lot of CG Gods so where are all the Epic Planetars and Solars to balance out the Abominations like Infernals (Basically Epic Balors and Pit Fiends)?

[Frosty]

Greater Divine Surge lets you sacrifice points of CON for extra AB and damage. Sacrifice a lot and you're pretty much guaranteed to hit (those swift-action-reroll gloves from the MIC take care of a 1!) and will do an enormous amount of damage. And if there's more enemies and you're level 17, you can use the strike that Heals you (as the spell) to get your CON back, even. If they don't kill you first.

IF they don't kill you first...big if.

[CASTLEMIKE]

ToB page 58 Level 8 Devoted Spirit Strike

[Chronicled]

8 ranks + 5 Con + 3 Skill Focus + 1 some feat from ToB I can't recall the name of (might be Blade Meditation) + 5 Vest of Casting (or something, from CompAdv) = 22. It could be done with a 16 Con.

Yup, forgot the obvious. Skill Focus: with ToB, not completely and utterly sucktastic!

[shadow_archmagi]

It wasn't insightful strike, he wasn't emerald mind. He was a kensai fighter 2 (from dragon magazine) and warblade 3.

Or perhaps the other way around... his attacks involved jump checks.

[Eldariel]

Then it's Tiger Claw. Judging by those levels, Claw at the Moon, so a critical was probably involved. I could imagine:

2d6+9 (Strength 22 - base 20, +2 item) + 2d6 - rolling max would be 33 (average would be 23). Maxed critical would be 54, so in the event of a crit, I could totally see over 40 damage.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

It wasn't insightful strike, he wasn't emerald mind. He was a kensai fighter 2 (from dragon magazine) and warblade 3.

Or perhaps the other way around... his attacks involved jump checks.

Tiger Claw. It's a school that makes TWF viable again, by making a lot of it's effects depend on criticals. It's good, but chancy. Also the only school that uses full attacks instead of single strikes. Watch him, his damage will vary greatly based on rolls and how long the battle is.

[Worira]

I like how Gavin keeps posting "It's magic", and Bees keeps posting elaborate rebuttals. Then Gavin keeps ignoring them. Seriously, responding to counterpoints is generally considered good form in a debate.