How much LA would you put on this?

[Frosty]

If someone wishes to play some sort of lesser nymph, what would you put the +LA as? Standard Nymph except as follows: no Racial HD, no Druid spellcasting, no SLAs, no Blinding Beauty, no Wild Empathy, and no racial bonus to Swim. Keep Stunning Glance and Unearthly Grace. Stats adjustments: +2 dex, +2 con, +2 int, +2 wis, +4 cha.

Obviously, Stunning Glance is powerful, and that's a lot of stat plusses. And most likely the character will have decent touch AC and good saves. So how much is this worth? +3 LA? This will make it so a sorcerer can never access 9th level spells. Melee characters might get some benefit, as having +2 dex and +2 con is nice, but this is still at a loss of 3 levels worth of HP and BAB, and for most fighter-types having a +4 Cha is pretty useless, although a Crusader might like this. Still, won't ge t9th level maneuvers until ECL 20.

[SadisticFishing]

I'd say LA+4. Cha to saves and AC is DAMN good, especially when paired with a +4 cha. Stunning Glance is pretty good too, owning a single target, but not nearly as bad.

Hrm, actually, +3 is probably right, come to think of it. I thought Stunning Glance was a Gaze attack, if it's not, yeah, +3.

[Edea]

What are the other characters in the party playing?

If you're just designing a racial variant for its own sake, +3 doesn't look too terribly off (+1 for stat adjustments, +1 or +2 for the abilities).

[Frosty]

It is not a gaze weapon. Looking at the Nymph have any bad consequences since Blindy Beauty is gone. The Lesser Nymph must spend a Standard Action looking at you in order force that Fort save or be Stunned.

[CASTLEMIKE]

I prefer the +2 LA Half-Fey template from Fiend Folio (Is it +1 LA without the butterfly Wings?). +2 Dex, -2 Con, +2 Wis and +4 Char plus spell like abilities that mesh well with a Sorcerer or Charismatic PC. Charm Person at will with 1HD+

I believe Dragon magazine had Half-Nymph as a +3LA race if memory serves. Edit: +2LA

+2 LA Half-Nymph Kobold -19 using the LA Buydown variant could have full spellcasting with the ritual.

[Frosty]

What are the other characters in the party playing?

If you're just designing a racial variant for its own sake, +3 doesn't look too terribly off (+1 for stat adjustments, +1 or +2 for the abilities).

Everybody else will likely be "half" something or another as well. I'm expecting a lot of strange abilities in our party.

[The Demented One]

Just going at it the formulaic route, I'd peg the lesser nymph at LA +3. Looks like you got it nicely balanced.

[LordOkubo]

I don't know, I peg it +4 personally. +1 for +4 Cha, +1 Phantom to make up for the fact that Cha to saves is a level 2 ability and all the other + stats, +1 for the gaze, +1 for the Cha to saves.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Half-Nymph template grants exactly those ability adjustments minus the Con bonus, an Awesome Beauty ability, and Low-Light vision for a +2 LA. I'd recommend giving your player the option of picking either that or the MM Nymph.

Unearthly Grace is a fairly unique ability and never comes without at least a few Fey HD, and I'd tell him that if he wants it, he'll have to play something as it appears in the book. Sirine (MM2) gets it, for 4 HD and a +4 LA, and Gloura gets it for 7 HD and a +2 LA. I'm sure there are a few other creatures that have it, but I doubt there's one without any racial HD.

[Chronos]

On the other hand, fey RHD aren't all that bad if you're playing a skillmonkey, since they get 6 points per level.

[Edea]

Main reason I ask is, if -everybody- is playing a freaky race combo, instead of actually using the LA rules in-game, simply allow the players to choose races/templates up to a predetermined limit (such as, say, +2 or +3) and then actually play as if there was no LA. You'd still want to know how much LA this homebrew's worth, obviously (and again +2 or +3 is pretty accurate), but just throwing that out there.

[Frosty]

Half-Nymph template grants exactly those ability adjustments minus the Con bonus, an Awesome Beauty ability, and Low-Light vision for a +2 LA. I'd recommend giving your player the option of picking either that or the MM Nymph.

Unearthly Grace is a fairly unique ability and never comes without at least a few Fey HD, and I'd tell him that if he wants it, he'll have to play something as it appears in the book. Sirine (MM2) gets it, for 4 HD and a +4 LA, and Gloura gets it for 7 HD and a +2 LA. I'm sure there are a few other creatures that have it, but I doubt there's one without any racial HD.

Well, as far as abilities and optimization goes, Unearthly Grace shouldn't be a huge problem. I mean, there's someone planning to be a Dark Half Farspawn Whisper Gnome Swordsage with a focus on shadow hand.

I don't even know what Farspawn does but I'm not sure how anybody else will ever see this character.

[Mr.Bookworm]

*steers thread off cliff*

Is there a grand list of templates in general?

Just wondering.

More on-topic:

Yeah, +3 LA sounds about right for that.

[arguskos]

Crystal Keep has a pretty good list of templates, IIRC.

/endofftopic

-argus

[Chronicled]

Well, as far as abilities and optimization goes, Unearthly Grace shouldn't be a huge problem. I mean, there's someone planning to be a Dark Half Farspawn Whisper Gnome Swordsage with a focus on shadow hand.

I don't even know what Farspawn does but I'm not sure how anybody else will ever see this character.

Oh man. Whenever I've played a sneaky character in the past, they've only been stealthy when needed. Now I want to make one that stays out of sight all the time, and doesn't even let the party see him. Good things just happen around them, with no visible/audible explaination.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Well, as far as abilities and optimization goes, Unearthly Grace shouldn't be a huge problem. I mean, there's someone planning to be a Dark Half Farspawn Whisper Gnome Swordsage with a focus on shadow hand.

I don't even know what Farspawn does but I'm not sure how anybody else will ever see this character.

Gloura (7 HD, +2 LA) Cobra-Strike Monk 2/ Fighter 2/ Arcane Duelist 4/ Blackguard 3/ Mystic Wanderer (MoF) 1; Ascetic Mage (CV), Divine Might (CW), Leap Attack (CV), Shock Trooper (CW); Belt of Magnificense +6 (enhancement to all stats)
Cha 18 base, +6 race, +4 levels, +6 Enhancement; Wis 12 base, +2 race, +6 Enhancement; Dex 14 base, +10 race, +6 Enhancement; Con 14 base, +4 race, +6 Enhancement
Naked except for belt at ECL 20: AC 68, Touch AC 68, Flat-Footed AC 48; Fort +43, Ref +46, Will +45

Add in items like Bracers of Armor, Ring of Protection, Amulet of Natural Armor, Cloak of Resistance, Tome of Leadership and Influence, and aging bonuses/penalties, and this character cannot be hit and never fails a saving throw even against twinked opponents. With Leap Attack, Shock Trooper, Divine Might, and Dexterous Attack from Arcane Duelist, he has some absurd damage potential which will never fail to hit anything but a copy of himself. A Lesser Nymph Arcane Duelist who takes Ascetic Mage and wears a Monk's Belt will probably still have such a high AC that nothing will hit it, add on Paladin 2+ and it won't ever fail a save.

[Frosty]

Oh man. Whenever I've played a sneaky character in the past, they've only been stealthy when needed. Now I want to make one that stays out of sight all the time, and doesn't even let the party see him. Good things just happen around them, with no visible/audible explaination.

Kinda makes RP hard though doesn't it? :p

[Chronos]

Main reason I ask is, if -everybody- is playing a freaky race combo, instead of actually using the LA rules in-game, simply allow the players to choose races/templates up to a predetermined limit (such as, say, +2 or +3) and then actually play as if there was no LA.

You probably will want to make the challenges somewhat harder, though, because a whole party of characters with free LA will probably shred anything "level-appropriate". Just mind the difference between "hard" and "soft" CR.

[Chronicled]

Kinda makes RP hard though doesn't it? :p

And I do love a challenge. It could be quite amusing, done right.

Cleric: "Boy, I sure do love whatever it is that's been stabbing our enemies in the back these past few days. Truly, a more noble, charitable being has not existed in my lifetime!
Super-stealthy-unheard-unseen-whispergnome:
Cleric: "...That's odd, my pocket feels heavier all of a sudden. Heavy, with gold."

[Vexxation]

Hm... forgive my ignorance, but could you apply the Half-Nymph template to.. say, a Nymph? And then half-fey?

"Hi, I'm a half-fey, half-nymph Nymph."
"And I'm the half-orc, half-human Half-orc. You don't see me bragging about it."

[Frosty]

Hm... forgive my ignorance, but could you apply the Half-Nymph template to.. say, a Nymph? And then half-fey?

"Hi, I'm a half-fey, half-nymph Nymph."
"And I'm the half-orc, half-human Half-orc. You don't see me bragging about it."

No, but you can put this template on something like Catfolk from Races of the Wild. I mean, just picture this Ranger character...you're a Nymph with kitty ears and a tail and you have huge eyes. Your favored enemy? Up to you, but probably "Things with Tentacles".

[Chronicled]

Your favored enemy? Up to you, but probably "Things with Tentacles".[/IMG]

I need to borrow this to use as an NPC now. And not even for a BESM game.

[Frosty]

I need to borrow this to use as an NPC now. And not even for a BESM game.

Go ahead What is BESM btw?

[Glimbur]

What is BESM btw?

Big Eyes Small Mouth, the anime/manga role playing game. Uses d6's.

[Chronicled]

Go ahead

As mentioned in a PM (but slightly edited):

Not sure exactly how I'd insert such an NPC yet, but I'm going to find something. Perhaps a damsel in distress who, once saved, manages to singlehandedly fend off a Wizard spamming Evard's Black Tentacles... and his Dire Feral Octopus familiar. She might get Freedom of Movement as an Extraordinary ability, but only against grapple attempts initiated by tentacles.

[Frosty]

I think she should instead be able to cast GREASE at-will as a (Su) ability. If she coats herself with Grease, she gets +10 to her escape artist checks!

[Edea]

You probably will want to make the challenges somewhat harder, though, because a whole party of characters with free LA will probably shred anything "level-appropriate". Just mind the difference between "hard" and "soft" CR.

Point. Hmm, I wonder how much of an average CR increase would do it for a free +2 or +3...or you can just send "That Damned Crab," wherever it is.

[Frosty]

That Damned Crab curshes its opponents (literally) with its high speed and grapple modifier. Depending on the build, even with free LA some party members might die.

[Chronicled]

That Damned Crab curshes its opponents (literally) with its high speed and grapple modifier. Depending on the build, even with free LA some party members might die.

That's where the player who picked the Winged template gives a sigh of relief... before flying back to town to find two replacement party members.

[Frosty]

Meh. half-fey template is better. Gives wings, and stats boosts, and scaling SLAs, and immunity to charm, and low light vision.