Need some helps vs. the Dreaded DMPC railroading. -_-

[EndlessWrath]

So a few days ago... we had a meeting..in one of the 3 games I'm currently in.

I have to summarize the world for you just for a sec.

Our game... consists of 2 player groups... an evil side...and a good side... that used to be on the same team. I unfortunately have been forced on the good side...even if my character has no tie to it whatsoever. I've been forced onto the good team...because well... its 3 people. 3 people (and a few walk-in-gamers) versus The DMPC, and 4 other players... oh and 5 NPCs...all of which are higher levels then us. So we've been speed leveling to get to this point...

anyways... so we've gained a little team... and we move (3 players + 4 npcs... all lower levels then us.) get railroaded across 2 continents, an ocean, and 5 islands... all so we can hand over one of the NPCs to the bad guys.. so they can steal her powers. We didn't want to do this mind you... it was just one of those:
DM: "He takes the girl"
PC#1: "I stop him"
DM: "He's too fast"
PC#2: "I attack him"
DM: "You miss"
PC#2: "I haven't even rolled yet!"

Right before he takes the girl... I got fed up with the railroading...I sent my guy away from the group and had him barter his way into a fancy restaurant...and eat Prime Rib Steak for the equivalent...of a Dollar.

The entire Saturday wasn't really a game... more of like watching a movie or something... just one really long cut-scene. I love the game... but i hate this railroading.. and he's about to have us on another mission. So i beg you playgrounders... Give me some helps.

So far I've got this...
1) leave the good guy team: this won't work to well.. unless I want to go on solo missions for the rest of the game -_-
2) continue to just give up and keep ordering steak.
3) Force the DM purple lightning bolt upon me... it deals 300000000000000d20 dmg... auto hit.
4) leave the game.

I hate all of those options, so please gimme a hand.

[RagnaroksChosen]

talk to your gm about it?

[Kyeudo]

Tell your GM that his DMPCs suck and you are tired of the railroading. You want to be able to do things and have an impact on the story instead of being stuck following a script.

If he refuses to discuss it, I recommend a hammergun.

[Talic]

Reasonable discussion is the first step, as my predecessors have said.

If that fails... Play along. Be a good little player... Wait for the perfect moment, and pull a Watchmen.

"And the people of the world will cry out, 'Save us!'
...and I'll whisper, 'no.' "

Wait for that perfect moment. It always comes along. The DM has something integral to his plot, and it's fragile and easily disrupted, and BAM! It's just been stabbed in the chest. You're the bad guy, right? So right at that climactic battle? Shank your buddies.

When they ask why? You had to get this game off the tracks somehow, and talking didn't work.

[mostlyharmful]

Its as true now as when Belkar showed us all the true path of adventuring, When in doubt, set something on fire

[BRC]

Reasonable discussion is the first step, as my predecessors have said.

If that fails... Play along. Be a good little player... Wait for the perfect moment, and pull a Watchmen.

"And the people of the world will cry out, 'Save us!'
...and I'll whisper, 'no.' "

Wait for that perfect moment. It always comes along. The DM has something integral to his plot, and it's fragile and easily disrupted, and BAM! It's just been stabbed in the chest. You're the bad guy, right? So right at that climactic battle? Shank your buddies.

When they ask why? You had to get this game off the tracks somehow, and talking didn't work.

I approve of this plan entierly. Maybe buy a single bead of fireball or a blast disk, stick it on your character sheet, and don't do anything with it. Then, when the DM least expects it, say "I pull out my blast disk and throw it at [NPC'S] Head."

[Sstoopidtallkid]

I approve of this plan entierly. Maybe buy a single bead of fireball or a blast disk, stick it on your character sheet, and don't do anything with it. Then, when the DM least expects it, say "I pull out my blast disk and throw it at [NPC'S] Head."

As do I, but I'd suggest shelling out the cash for a full Necklace of Fireballs VII and a Glove of Storing. It'll set you back 20,000 GP, but then you can do this. Only not centered on yourself. Just wait for the right moment, and even a DM like this couldn't rule that the McGuffin/BBEG/Plot Device/Paladin survives. You win.

[Recaiden]

Like everyone else says, talk it over with your DM, and explain that you want more control over what happens, and if the railroading continues, mess things up. Refuse to do adventures, necklace of fireballs, kill your entire party in their sleep, abuse any available game breaking things you know of, all the way up to "I cast awaken on this snake that i found and Wish that a Sarrukh would grant me manipulate form..."

[BRC]

My explosive suggestion aside, talking it out should always be the first option. However, I don't have much hope. If you've got a railroader DM in the middle of his story it will be very difficult for him to sway from the path. Now, normally I would be careful to throw around a term like railroading, but from the looks of things there are actually more NPC's in the party than PC's, which means that the DM is effectively playing most of the game himself.

[Swordguy]

My explosive suggestion aside, talking it out should always be the first option. However, I don't have much hope. If you've got a railroader DM in the middle of his story it will be very difficult for him to sway from the path. Now, normally I would be careful to throw around a term like railroading, but from the looks of things there are actually more NPC's in the party than PC's, which means that the DM is effectively playing most of the game himself.

must...resist...snark...overwhelming...

Ahh...screw it.

How is that unusual? Most gamers seem to spend a large amount of time playing with themselves.


(Psst! OP: Talk to your GM first, then blow up his campaign world.)

[Mushroom Ninja]

must...resist...snark...overwhelming...

Ahh...screw it.

How is that unusual? Most gamers seem to spend a large amount of time playing with themselves.


(Psst! OP: Talk to your GM first, then blow up his campaign world.)

O.o


this disturbs me greatly

[Tsotha-lanti]

Talk to the DM, and if he doesn't change his style, change DMs.

[AKA_Bait]

Talk to the DM, and if he doesn't change his style, change DMs.

This is what I would suggest. Presumably, this fellow is also your friend. Although blowing up his campagin would be somewhat satisfying, it's not a good idea if you don't want there to be bad blood between you two. Better to just walk away and play another game.

[Jimp]

I played in a game like this before. It was the usual IRL group of players but someone else was DM and I was a PC this time. It started off well but after an hour or two of trekking to reach a town it quickly devolved to 6+ hours of us talking to his interesting NPCs. Even the showdown with the bad guy we had been finding out about was like this. For a paraphrased reconstruction:
DM: "A magical field surrounds [bad guy] and [good guy] and they begin to duel."
PC 1: "Can we get through the field?"
DM: "No, you try but it shocks you and pushes you back."
PCs: *sigh* "Alright, we watch the duel."
Cue a lengthy description of the duel.
DM: ". . .and they vanish in a blinding flash!"
PC 2: "Any trace of where they went?"
PC 3: "Can my Detect Magic sense anything?"
DM "No and No."
Yeah, it wasn't the most action packed game. On the plus side we took our lack of influence to have nothing but fun at the NPC's expense. At one stage we were asked to deliver a message to an NPC at the other side of the city, so we summoned an orge, enlarged him, cast Tounges (I think) on him so he could speak a load of languages and rode him through the city, stamping on whatever we could as we went. Since the NPC was a wanted thief and the DM didn't want to guards to be lead to his door we got away scot free with everything . Other similar activities included acting very inappropriately at an upper class ball, but we didn't get kicked out since we were to listen to an NPC's speech, and using Boots of Spider Climb to walk on walls and ceilings whenever possible, completely disregarding the floor and all those on it.
Tl;dr version: Let the DM run his railroad plot and make your own fun around it by doing ridiculous things and seeing what you can get away with.

[Mushroom Ninja]

I played in a game like this before. It was the usual IRL group of players but someone else was DM and I was a PC this time. It started off well but after an hour or two of trekking to reach a town it quickly devolved to 6+ hours of us talking to his interesting NPCs. Even the showdown with the bad guy we had been finding out about was like this. For a paraphrased reconstruction:
DM: "A magical field surrounds [bad guy] and [good guy] and they begin to duel."
PC 1: "Can we get through the field?"
DM: "No, you try but it shocks you and pushes you back."
PCs: *sigh* "Alright, we watch the duel."
Cue a lengthy description of the duel.
DM: ". . .and they vanish in a blinding flash!"
PC 2: "Any trace of where they went?"
PC 3: "Can my Detect Magic sense anything?"
DM "No and No."
Yeah, it wasn't the most action packed game. On the plus side we took our lack of influence to have nothing but fun at the NPC's expense. At one stage we were asked to deliver a message to an NPC at the other side of the city, so we summoned an orge, enlarged him, cast Tounges (I think) on him so he could speak a load of languages and rode him through the city, stamping on whatever we could as we went. Since the NPC was a wanted thief and the DM didn't want to guards to be lead to his door we got away scot free with everything . Other similar activities included acting very inappropriately at an upper class ball, but we didn't get kicked out since we were to listen to an NPC's speech, and using Boots of Spider Climb to walk on walls and ceilings whenever possible, completely disregarding the floor and all those on it.
Tl;dr version: Let the DM run his railroad plot and make your own fun around it by doing ridiculous things and seeing what you can get away with.

You know, that sounds like a lot of fun!

[Frosty]

What *is* the definition of a railroad DM anyways? Sometimes, the DM's gotta advance the plot.

[Jimp]

What *is* the definition of a railroad DM anyways? Sometimes, the DM's gotta advance the plot.

I think in this context it's one who let's the PCs have little to no influence in how anything turns out. Like a Final Fantasy game with less combat and no unlockables.

[kamikasei]

What *is* the definition of a railroad DM anyways? Sometimes, the DM's gotta advance the plot.

To my mind, more or less "some things happen, you have no opportunity to change how they happen, there are no rolls, you take no actions or I tell you what actions you take," and so on. The game becomes a cutscene, something that the DM has decided must happen will happen regardless of whether it makes sense or should be open to player interference. The world behaves in a way that doesn't make internal sense so as to enforce the DM's external vision.

[Frosty]

Well, sometimes there might be a cut-scene or two involved in a session...but an entire game of cutscenes would be boring.

[Tsotha-lanti]

What *is* the definition of a railroad DM anyways? Sometimes, the DM's gotta advance the plot.

Removing player agency in a scene or in the game overall. "Railroading" typically implies doing this with negative results. If the players don't notice they didn't have agency in a situation (which requires subtlety and sparing use), they won't mind, and it's not "really" railroading.

Jimp described a game that was the definition of railroading. No matter what the PCs did, the GM's plot went on.

A GM who accepts the old, true, and vital maxim, "no plot survives contact with the players", and adapts rather than resisting or forcing, will almost by definition not railroad the players.

[Talic]

My general Def of a RR DM is when the DM cares more about telling his story than playing the game. Yes, there's a plot. Yes, he/she did work developing it.

But when the DM's gonna have his epic chase through the sewers of the city, and darn it, no PC roleplaying is gonna stop him... Even if 3 of them are claustrophobic and one's a germophobe.

That's when you have a Railroad DM.

[DeathQuaker]

What *is* the definition of a railroad DM anyways? Sometimes, the DM's gotta advance the plot.

I think the OP's example is a good one--the DM let the players have NO influence on the scene, even when they should have had an opportunity to act. Rather than force the kidnapping, he should have had two story paths ready--one if they rescued the girl from the kidnapping, one if they failed to rescue her. Making it hard to rescue her but let them roll some dice would have been much better. Making the players feel helpless is doing it wrong, IMO.

Now, realistically and honestly, I'd chat with the GM about it and explain to him that the situation is frustrating and unfun and work with him on this. That's my genuine advice.

But if the GM's uncooperative and you can't get out of the game yet, the malicious side of me says I'd just say IC, "You know what? I hated her anyway. Let's go get ice cream," and lead the PC's directly away from the plot, and refuse to respond to any GM prodding from that point forward. If the GM says, "But, but, if you don't rescue her, the world will end!" Say, "Good. It's a lousy world anyway where the heroes are constantly helpless. Go and destroy it already, so we can go have ice cream in real life. I'm running the next D&D campaign, by the way. Problem?"

But I wouldn't actually do that--fun though it might be! I'd honestly just talk to him about it, and leave the game if it didn't improve.

[Waspinator]

Any DM is going to "railroad" to some degree if nothing else because they're the one whose creating the setting and therefore have a lot of control over whether or not things exist or are physically possible. Usually, though, when people talk about railroading it's usually in the sense that the players want to do something and it seems reasonable in-world for them to be able to do it, but the DM says no because it messes up his plot. Things like the NPC who won't die no matter what is shot at him and conveniently dodges everything, the villain who teleports away right before death and doesn't let anything trace his destination, and even more blatant things like the DM telling the players what their characters decide to do instead of giving them free will.

[Tsotha-lanti]

Any DM is going to "railroad" to some degree if nothing else because they're the one whose creating the setting and therefore have a lot of control over whether or not things exist or are physically possible.

That's not removing player agency in a scene.

"I want a jetpack!"
"There are no jetpacks in Faerûn."

This is not railroading.

Again, Jimp's description is a better example of railroading than anything I could think of. It's such outrageous railroading there's not even an illusion of agency, and the importance of the PCs is nil. There is, however, a qualitative difference to what you describe in the above quote.

[BRC]

What *is* the definition of a railroad DM anyways? Sometimes, the DM's gotta advance the plot.

My metaphore is a Railroad versus a Road Trip, a good DM makes his campaigns a road trip, a bad one puts his PC's on the railroad.

In both cases the DM decides where it's going and more or less whats inbetween. The difference is, with a Railroad there is no choice as to how you get there, when you get there, or what happens along the way. With a Road trip the PC's are getting there on their own, choosing their own path and all that. The point is that on the roadtrip, the players are the ones driving.

[Chronos]

What *is* the definition of a railroad DM anyways? Sometimes, the DM's gotta advance the plot.

The wonderful thing about a role-playing game is that the DM doesn't have a monopoly on plot. Plot is just what happens, and while the DM certainly has a greater degree of influence on what happens, everyone else has some influence as well.

[EndlessWrath]

Reading all of this....

ok...
done.
-------
A lot of you gave me some good ideas! I can't help but notice the "talk to the GM about it" solution continues to pop up. I talked to him yesterday... his response "well the other team is gonna have some trouble with him too! don't worry!"

-_-

I don't mind pushes into the direction of a major plot twist... but this is way out of line. He was expecting me to do something about it..but 'twould have been out of character. Due to a backstory (that was basically handed to me by the GM) My guy's clan has been eradicated by his older brother... all that remains is 4 people. Him, his brother, and 2 others. So he's become Aspect of Wrath basically... Machiavelli of vengeance. My recent plan was to leave my group because its not advancing me anywhere toward killing the NPC brother... in fact its leading me away from doing that. I have to hunt down other people while not being able to pursue own goals. I can't kill any team members... and the other players are too difficult to find. Not that I would know... I'm not allowed a spot/search/gather info checks to even attempt to locate them... my spot check is +42 on bad days...

I also must note.. that I can't just go around screwing up the world...He'll either force me to stay in with DM purple lightning bolt (I would agree to letting him, if I hadn't already invested a year and a half into this game, I at least want the climactic duel between brother and me.) or I end up making it un-fun for the other players, particularly the other team...which his "co-GM" is on.

I will attempt for the Screwing around with npc's. I dun really care about our LG fanatic paladin's opinion anyways =P... he's the reason I'm on this stupid team. (CN character + LG + NE PCs on good team -_-)
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Thanks for the help so far, don't hesitate to give more suggestions

[Lochar]

The wonderful thing about a role-playing game is that the DM doesn't have a monopoly on plot. Plot is just what happens, and while the DM certainly has a greater degree of influence on what happens, everyone else has some influence as well.

Game I'm running here on the boards, I had a minor encounter with several NPCs. That night, two of them snuck back to attack, kill, and loot the PCs.

One, a rogue, died. The other, a conjurer, escaped. Nothing else would have happened (the conjurer would have never been seen again), except the players made such a fuss over his motives and such that he all of a sudden got a bigger position in the spotlight.

Therefore, Mr. Conjurer coincidentally managed to make a pact with a demon lord that's trying to subtly take over the world, and now the players have a relatively big plot device staring at them.

[Tsotha-lanti]

A lot of you gave me some good ideas! I can't help but notice the "talk to the GM about it" solution continues to pop up. I talked to him yesterday... his response "well the other team is gonna have some trouble with him too! don't worry!"

Yes, this is why it's paired with "If that doesn't work, switch DMs."

How long did this discussion last? Doesn't sound like it was much of a one.

[EndlessWrath]

Yes, this is why it's paired with "If that doesn't work, switch DMs."

I've already stated I don't want to swap GMs.. cause I don't wanna quit the game, and the game won't run unless he runs it (can't swap GMs within the group. nobody wants to).